Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[momrids6]

The hospital's wish to "rush" it has bothered me because it gives the appearance they are hiding something. There is a possibility Jahi's condition is a result of negligence on the part of the hospital and that needs investigating. I think the tests given to her in order to evaluate brain activity need to be repeated by an independent physician, not just have an independent physician look at test results already performed by the hospital staff.

The coroner is the one who is concerned about time being of the essence:

An official from the Oakland coroner's office told CNN that Jahi's death was reported to the office Thursday.
"Once a death is reported to us, we have a duty and responsibility to immediately proceed to where the body lies, examine the body, make identification, make inquiry into the circumstances, manner, and means of death, and, as circumstances warrant, either order its removal for further investigation or disposition, or release the body to the next of kin," the official said, quoting California Government Code Section 27491.
< snip>

According to the coroner official, "in this case, this office has been very gracious. Technically, we can go where the body lies and we can begin our investigation as to the causes of death. We have been gracious and we have allowed the parents and the hospital to maintain the child on life support."
Krigel, the hospital spokeswoman, said in an e-mail that the hospital does "not have a policy re: terminating life support. We work with the family to determine when that will happen. There are instances when the coroner may request termination, but we always work with the family to respect their wishes."
The official at the coroner's office said the main concern is giving the family the answers they seek, and in order to do that, time is of the essence.
<snip>

"In my opinion, that is the bigger issue we are grappling with here: the balance between giving the parents time to grieve and determining the causes of the child's death before the body heals."
"This child is deceased. From a medical standpoint, this child will never recover. There is a careful balance between letting the parties investigate and allowing the parents to grieve," the official said. "We know the parents want answers, and it is our office that will provide answers if they are available to us. The longer we wait, the less susceptible we are to getting the evidence we need to render a cause of death. Time is not on our side, from a medical investigation standpoint."

Read more: http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/nationa...#ixzz2o5DdI353

 

[Karmady]

Teaching is one of the most vital parts of a health care team's responsibility to a patient and family. Someone dropped the ball very early on, and they never picked it back up. OR the family was too upset to listen, in which case, they should have been separated and received one on one grief therapy until all the adults understood that Jahi was dead, with a breathing machine that needed to be unhooked and taken away.

The flat EEGs could have also been shown to the one nurse in the family. She should definitely understand what a flat lines means- there's no activity.

I have thought this has been about money- that the family has made it an international scandal and debate because of a desire to benefit from Jahi's death.
Now, I really think they aren't listening with their heads to the medical team, but to the attorney who is a in my opinion. HE is the one who will make money off this poor deceased child.

They will ALL make money. The family will make about 2/3rd's and the lawyer will make 1/3. Grief and greed are not mutually exclusive. I believe that this family is not so ignorant that they actually believe there's any hope of anything but fairly soon "death" as they have chosen to define it. jmo

 

[MyBelle]

The family reports she moves and attempts to take breaths on her own. if either is true, she's not brain dead.


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Yes, I almost mentioned that in my post. Her mother said she moves when touched. Why isn't her body a lifeless corpse?

 

[shana]

Facility in New York 'last hope' for Jahi McMath

I believe many could see this happening already, keyword "airlift".

I hope the family finds its peace.

~jmo~

 

[MyBelle]

The coroner is the one who is concerned about time being of the essence:

An official from the Oakland coroner's office told CNN that Jahi's death was reported to the office Thursday.
"Once a death is reported to us, we have a duty and responsibility to immediately proceed to where the body lies, examine the body, make identification, make inquiry into the circumstances, manner, and means of death, and, as circumstances warrant, either order its removal for further investigation or disposition, or release the body to the next of kin," the official said, quoting California Government Code Section 27491.
< snip>

According to the coroner official, "in this case, this office has been very gracious. Technically, we can go where the body lies and we can begin our investigation as to the causes of death. We have been gracious and we have allowed the parents and the hospital to maintain the child on life support."
Krigel, the hospital spokeswoman, said in an e-mail that the hospital does "not have a policy re: terminating life support. We work with the family to determine when that will happen. There are instances when the coroner may request termination, but we always work with the family to respect their wishes."
The official at the coroner's office said the main concern is giving the family the answers they seek, and in order to do that, time is of the essence.
<snip>

"In my opinion, that is the bigger issue we are grappling with here: the balance between giving the parents time to grieve and determining the causes of the child's death before the body heals."
"This child is deceased. From a medical standpoint, this child will never recover. There is a careful balance between letting the parties investigate and allowing the parents to grieve," the official said. "We know the parents want answers, and it is our office that will provide answers if they are available to us. The longer we wait, the less susceptible we are to getting the evidence we need to render a cause of death. Time is not on our side, from a medical investigation standpoint."

Read more: http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/nationa...#ixzz2o5DdI353

The child is still tethered to the machines so apparently the coroner is extending its graciousness and isn't in a rush to determine what happened.

 

[SophieRose]

The hospital's wish to "rush" it has bothered me because it gives the appearance they are hiding something. There is a possibility Jahi's condition is a result of negligence on the part of the hospital and that needs investigating. I think the tests given to her in order to evaluate brain activity need to be repeated by an independent physician, not just have an independent physician look at test results already performed by the hospital staff.

The hospital hasn't rushed it. She had the operation on Dec 9. On Dec 11, two doctors at different times of the day declared her brain dead. On Dec 12, three independent doctors declared her brain dead, family notified of brain death. Told she would be disconnected on Dec 17. Someone posted an article (not related to this case) where doctor suggests about 5 days before life support is disconnected for brain death. Injunction filed on Dec 17 by family's new attorney. Judge asks for another independent physician to repeat tests. Pediatrician neurologist from Lucille Packard Children's Hospital (Stanford) performs them on Dec 23 and reports back to court on Dec 24 that she meets all the criteria for brain death.

 

[Karmady]

"Sam Singer, spokesman for Children's Hospital Oakland, said the family is being misled by their attorney, saying he has created a false impression that the teen could recover from her vegetative state."

Spokesman is contradicting Children's Hospitals own declaration that the child is brain dead.

Is there any wonder why the parents don't trust the hospital????


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can you link that please?

 

[MyBelle]

The hospital hasn't rushed it. She had the operation on Dec 9. On Dec 11, two doctors at different times of the day declared her brain dead. On Dec 12, three independent doctors declared her brain dead, family notified of brain death. Told she would be disconnected on Dec 17. Someone posted an article (not related to this case) where doctor suggests about 5 days before life support is disconnected for brain death. Injunction filed on Dec 17 by family's new attorney. Judge asks for another independent physician to repeat tests. Pediatrician neurologist from Lucille Packard Children's Hospital (Stanford) performs them on Dec 23 and reports back to court on Dec 24 that she meets all the criteria for brain death.

She didn't develop complications until day 3, which would be December 11. If two doctors on that day decided she was brain dead, then that's rushing it, imo.

 

[SophieRose]

The family reports she moves and attempts to take breaths on her own. if either is true, she's not brain dead.

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What do the nurses say taking care of her? At least the family thinks highly of them.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...-release-letter-addressing-critics?source=pkg

We also wish to thank the nurses who have been kind to Jahi despite the hospitals stance towards her.

 

[MyBelle]

can you link that please?

Sam Singer, spokesman for Children's Hospital Oakland, said the family is being misled by their attorney, saying he has created a false impression that the teen could recover from her vegetative state.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...ly-attorney-release-letter-addressing-critics

 

[Linda7NJ]

can you link that please?

Sure, here ya go

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...ly-attorney-release-letter-addressing-critics


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[momrids6]

She didn't develop complications until day 3, which would be December 11. If two doctors on that day decided she was brain dead, then that's rushing it, imo.

According to the Uncle, she was bleeding out a half hour after her transfer to ICU from recovery.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The fact of the matter is... It's cheaper if she's brain dead.
A "persistent vegetative state" is very very expensive.

I don't blame the parents for questioning the motives and the word of the hospital and doctors. It seems these particular parents didn't have.a good understanding of the risks prior to their child's surgery and communication afterwards seems highly inflammatory.




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[gngr~snap]

From what I understand "rushing" to have the vent shut off allows for a more accurate autopsy. The longer she is kept alive some healing will occur and obsure or alter an accurate COD.
IMO this goes to show the hospital isn't hiding anything at all. They want the truth to be seen period.

In my opinion fwiw, if she truly had 3 procedures done in one operation,there was an increased risk of bleeding without proper measures taken to reduce the chance of postoperative bleeding/swelling while allowing her to breathe.
In order to maintain an airway she would have needed a temporary/preventative trach in place.
A doctor can't pack the nose/sinus and hope the throat won't swell or bleed and require packing to the point of cutting off adequate air supply. A proactive approach would be to have a secondary airway put in place in the OR prior to her experiencing post op bleeding and or swelling.
The patients I cared for in nursing school that had multiple surgeries in the throat, nose and sinus had to agree to the trach before the surgeon would agree to do the surgery. Then in the event of a significant bleed it could be packed because there was an alternate airway that would remain patent or unaffected.
All moo.
IMO the hospital will settle with the family out of court.
This story is just tragic, however it was not a "typical" tonsillectomy gone wrong. It was a risky surgery from the get go.
Moo
*** sorry I rambled there!
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[shana]

Sam Singer, spokesman for Children's Hospital Oakland, said the family is being misled by their attorney, saying he has created a false impression that the teen could recover from her vegetative state.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...ly-attorney-release-letter-addressing-critics

He is not claiming that she is in a vegetative state, but rather saying that the family atty is so saying and creating a false impression of Jahi's condition and declaration of Brain Death.

~jmo~

 

[MyBelle]

She developed complications ON the day of the surgery.

Declaring her brain dead only three days later is rushing it a bit, imo.

The family says doctors at the children's hospital wanted to disconnect life support after Jahi was declared brain dead on Dec. 12. The family says she kept bleeding profusely after the surgery three days earlier, then went into cardiac arrest.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...ep-Jahi-McMath-on-Life-Support-236808851.html

 

[Herding Cats]

I am utterly horrified at this whole thing. I've been reading and watching for days, and still cannot find peace with this, as I usually can with other things.

I could not bear to be the nurse for this girl's body...could not bear it. I admire those nurses who are doing something I would be unable to do, and do it well and wisely. They are truly a blessing for everyone in this circumstance.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[CherBearSTL]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but it could be an explanation of what happened after the surgery. ..my friend's daughter had her tonsils removed when she was 8 years old. She almost died twice from bleeding post-Op. After being rushed to a children's hospital, she was diagnosed with a bleeding disorder called Von Willebrands disease, which is similar to hemophilia.

It's possible that this could have caused the massive bleeding in this case.

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[Linda7NJ]

From what I understand "rushing" to have the vent shut off allows for a more accurate autopsy. The linger she is kept alive some healing will occur and obsure or alter an accurate COD.
IMO this goes to show the hospital isn't hiding anything at all. They want the truth to be seen period.

In my opinion fwiw, if she truly had 3 procedures done in one operation,there was an increased risk of bleeding without proper measures taken to reduce the chance of postoperative bleeding/swelling while allowing her to breathe.
In order to maintain an airway she would have needed a temporary/preventative trach in place.
A doctor can't pack the nose/sinus and hope the throat won't swell or bleed and require packing to the point of cutting off adequate air supply. A proactive approach would be to have a secondary airway put in place in the OR prior to her experiencing post op bleeding and or swelling.
The patients I cared for in nursing school that had multiple surgeries in the throat, nose and sinus had to agree to the trach before the surgeon would agree to do the surgery. Then in the event of a significant bleed it could be packed because the was an alternate airway that would remain patent or unaffected.
All moo.
IMO the hospital will settle with the family out of court.
This story is just tragic, however it was not a "typical" tonsillectomy gone wrong. It was a risky surgery from the get go.
Moo
*** sorry I rambled there!
Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2

My husband had this surgery a few years ago. I went with him for doctor visits and to hear it explained by doctors... It was "no big deal"
I knew better. I know there's a risk involved with any surgery. I begged my husband not to have it done. He had it anyway. Thankfully, he was fine and suffered no complications.

( they even removed his uvula! )


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[Karmady]

Sam Singer, spokesman for Children's Hospital Oakland, said the family is being misled by their attorney, saying he has created a false impression that the teen could recover from her vegetative state.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...ly-attorney-release-letter-addressing-critics

yeah, i edited my link request, but keep getting booted off-line. Stinkin' kids lol.
That's from my link. It's NOT a quote from Singer. It's a quote from the article. And he's not the hospital spokesperson, he's the hospital's lawyer. jmo