Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[SophieRose]

Thank you for reposting this!


I have a sneaking suspicion that the family were the ones pushing for this surgery and may have very well been advised that doing that much surgery in the head/neck was extremely dangerous.
I would not be surprised to hear doctors recommended breaking the surgeries up and performing (some) at a later date.
I also believe that her being obese would factor into the idea of not doing all three at once.
When it all comes out I believe it will be crystal clear.
Moo
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I don't think the mother was pushing for this surgery since she took Jahi to another doctor for a second opinion. I do think the mother took the surgery seriously.

 

[otto]

In thrilled you haven't had the same experiences with glossing over as I have had. Please do not tell me what my experiences have been. You were not there.


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How is it possible that the hospital "glosses" over the risks. The patient/guardian is given written documents (which contain all risks) to read and sign. Death is always a possible consequence of surgery, and it is included in the risks. If the patient/guardian doesn't understand something, questions need to be asked. It's not like the hospital hovers over the patient/guardian and demands a quick signature without an opportunity to read the documents. In fact, that patient is required to be 30 minutes early to complete the paperwork.

How was it possible to read documents and to sign them but ... at the same time ... that written information was "glossed over"? How does the hospital "gloss over" written information that is clearly understood by most patients?

 

[MyBelle]

Right, she was only in surgery one time, but your post seemed so insulate that the surgeons performed more procedures than what the parents were initially told. Wouldn't the parents have to give consent for all procedures?

I agree that the family is focused on keeping her on "life support", but I certainly think they would have brought it up by now. I know nothing about medical law, but I can only imagine there would (or at least should) be major consequences for doctors performing unauthorized procedures on a child, especially if it lead to their death.

BBM. One surgery, one consent. It probably had a clause that included additional procedures if the surgeon deemed them necessary once he got her in surgery.

My point was that the family may not have been told AFTER the surgery that those additional procedures were also done.

 

[Donjeta]

BBM. One surgery, one consent. It probably had a clause that included additional procedures if the surgeon deemed them necessary once he got her in surgery.

My point was that the family may not have been told AFTER the surgery that those additional procedures were also done.

Is there any evidence to suggest that?

They would have been extra angry if they only found out from the court proceedings that the surgeon did additional procedures they weren't informed about and they would have said something by now.

Uvulopalatopharyngoplasties are generally not something you do for a whim imo. If the surgeons discover a malignancy during surgery or there is a complication they may need to do a larger operation than originally planned but I don't believe that an uvulopalatopharyngoplasty is ever so urgent that you have to do it there and then without asking for parental consent.

 

[MyBelle]

My son had brain surgery, and he's had numerous MRIs. Each and every time I have been asked to give consent. Consent always includes a complete explanation of the risks. I have had questions about the risks and I have had every opportunity to have my questions addressed prior to giving consent.

At one point, I asked about the risks associated with an injection of gadolinium. Based on my questions and disagreement with the risks, it was decided that although it would be more difficult to get a clear reading, it was possible, so gadolinium was not used again.

It is the patient's responsibility to ask questions if they do not understand. Hospitals do not "gloss" over patient consent, but the patient might choose to "gloss" over the risks. That is not the fault of the hospital.

This case isn't about consent or risk, it is about a complication that apparently was not anticipated by the ICU.

 

[oh_gal]

I am just baffled at these two different cases: young girl, goes in for tonsil surgery, is now brain dead, and her family is fighting to keep her alive; young pregnant mother, suffers an embolism, and is brain dead, and the husband/father wants to pull the plug and end the life of his wife, as well as his unborn child. Two similar situations, such differing wishes of the families involved. Very telling.

 

[SophieRose]

BBM. One surgery, one consent. It probably had a clause that included additional procedures if the surgeon deemed them necessary once he got her in surgery.

My point was that the family may not have been told AFTER the surgery that those additional procedures were also done.

Read the court document, it says she was admitted for the three procedures. Doesn't say procedures were decided during time of the operation. The family would be yelling about it to the media if that had happened.

 

[LinasK]

I'm glad your ok!

I'm on more medication now than I have ever been. If I am prescribed something I always get online to the website that you can list your meds and see if any interact. I do this before I take anything, even over the counter now. I also research for myself the side effects. I research doctor recommendations. Doctors do have differing opinions and not everyone is informed on everything. It's my body and I want to know what I am putting into it. Also, I am the one that knows my body best.

I encourage everyone to do this for themselves as well.

Thanks. I did something stupid and tripped over spools of curling ribbon and thought I broke my toe. It hurt so bad, my dr. prescribed Tramadol/Ultram. I relied on the pharmacist. One dose didn't take away the pain, so I had two with dinner, but it was only 4 hours apart. Made me sick as a dog. I will NEVER take that drug ever again. I kept apologizing to DD & DH for ruining their Christmas Eve, but they were wonderful and stayed by my side and played guitar and read to me.

 

[Linda7NJ]

How is it possible that the hospital "glosses" over the risks. The patient/guardian is given written documents (which contain all risks) to read and sign. Death is always a possible consequence of surgery, and it is included in the risks. If the patient/guardian doesn't understand something, questions need to be asked. It's not like the hospital hovers over the patient/guardian and demands a quick signature without an opportunity to read the documents. In fact, that patient is required to be 30 minutes early to complete the paperwork.

How was it possible to read documents and to sign them but ... at the same time ... that written information was "glossed over"? How does the hospital "gloss over" written information that is clearly understood by most patients?

It should come as no great surprise that many many people rely on & listen to their doctors and most people never bother to actually read the paper work. Doctors make comments like its quick, in & out same day...fix you right up..quick recovery time..etc etc... Never once has a doctor said to me..."have you considered the very real but remote possibility this procedure could kill or or leave you brain dead or in a persistent vegetative state?"



Oh and my ALL TIME FAVORITE doctor minimization " you may experience slight discomfort"


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[Linda7NJ]

I am just baffled at these two different cases: young girl, goes in for tonsil surgery, is now brain dead, and her family is fighting to keep her alive; young pregnant mother, suffers an embolism, and is brain dead, and the husband/father wants to pull the plug and end the life of his wife, as well as his unborn child. Two similar situations, such differing wishes of the families involved. Very telling.

Yeah, and I'm not very happy about the Texas law that applies in that other case either. ( at least I'm consistent )


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[Tulessa]

I commend you guys for showing so much respect for this family. Even though we may not agree on their decision? Respect has been shown. You guys truly are what WS should be. I have tried to refrain from commenting (except for the burger). I just can't say what I would do until faced with that decision. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt. I would accept no charity. But not many funeral homes accept payments, as our does. That's why we have Life Insurance policies. Thanks to all of you for proceeding with dignity and respect. Thanks Git, for being you. :blowkiss:

 

[LinasK]

BBM. From my own experience, I also know that hospitals don't disclose the error and the human who made it moves on to work at another facility and the damage due to "errors" continues...

Yup, I've personally reported Nursing Homes to the Department of Health for Violations. I do hope the family sues Children's for malpractice. It's not about the money.

 

[Isabelle]

Seems the Koreans are doing it right!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3427814/

 

[Tulessa]

Thanks. I did something stupid and tripped over spools of curling ribbon and thought I broke my toe. It hurt so bad, my dr. prescribed Tramadol/Ultram. I relied on the pharmacist. One dose didn't take away the pain, so I had two with dinner, but it was only 4 hours apart. Made me sick as a dog. I will NEVER take that drug ever again. I kept apologizing to DD & DH for ruining their Christmas Eve, but they were wonderful and stayed by my side and played guitar and read to me.

You must be like me Linda. My body doesn't tolerate meds well. Ultram is very mild, and used to be a non narcotic. Did you know it causes seizures? I'm scared of any meds.

 

[MyBelle]

Is there any evidence to suggest that?

They would have been extra angry if they only found out from the court proceedings that the surgeon did additional procedures they weren't informed about and they would have said something by now.

Uvulopalatopharyngoplasties are generally not something you do for a whim imo.

It is a procedure that involves sutures along the roof of the mouth whereas tonsillectomy/adenoids don't require sutures. At least my kids' didn't.

Several of the news articles quote the family as asking the ICU nurses if the bleeding was "normal" and some nurses said "no" and others said, "I don't know." It sounds to me that the nurses were not aware of the sutures.

 

[Tulessa]

Yup, I've personally reported Nursing Homes to the Department of Health for Violations. I do hope the family sues Children's for malpractice. It's not about the money.

So have I, and gotten fired. I was not even allowed on the property to check, and visit the patients, I had come to love. A good lawyer and a nasty letter, with him accompanying me on a visit fixed that.

 

[LinasK]

I disagree. At this point, it is my opinion that they are playing people's emotions. She won't be transferred anywhere that I can see. Her lawyer is working for free. Hospital bills covered. So what will this money be used for? Ok funeral expenses, and then what? :waitasec:

The fund site has been updated, they are at $19,830, the mother says:

Updated posted by Latasha Nailah Winkfield 1 hour ago

Please continue to pray for Jahi....

Please continue to pray for Jahi.

http://www.gofundme.com/Jahi-Mcmath

To me that says please continue your donations. The girl is deceased. There is no bringing her back. Yes, I do think this has become about money for the family. :twocents: I don't mean to sound harsh, but that is how I see it.

The post I was trying to respond to disappeared while I got booted off, but I will continue to keep Jahi in my thoughts and prayers- and I'm not even Christian!

This is it.

 

[EmmaliLucia]

Posting a medical/health are provider's phone number on FB to encourage others to call
as part of a 'keep-the-patient-alive-campaign'?
Summoning a flash mob in a hospital lobby? Who does this?

Does the family believe the general public's 'phone vote' should influence medical decisions for a particular patient?

Has 21st century US life morphed into one never-ending 'reality' show,
where viewers vote participants 'off the island' and dictate medical treatment?

JM2cts and I may be wrong (steps off soapbox). :seeya:


This FB site https://www.facebook.com/keepJahiMcmathonlifesupport
was linked several posts back, but I just noticed the following there from Dec. 23:
"Good morning everyone!!! Can't wait to see you all downstairs at 9:30am!!!
Here is the number to Dr. David Durand 510.428.XXXX,
please call and leave messages asking him to Keep Jahi Alive.** THANK YOU!!!!!!!"
(BBM and my retracting last 4 digits)

A commenter there replied as follows, which also expresses my thoughts:
"Um because the doctor is the chief of pediatrics and oversees several other doctors and probably 100's of children. Considering Jahi is in an ICU every single one of those children are fighting for there lives and by making it difficult for people to communicate with this doctor you are actually contributing to the illness and potential death of other children. ...." (BBM)

ETA: Another FB commenter: "He is a freaking pediatrician not your state senator."

I am so disgusted with this family right now I am almost in tears.

That is disgusting and this has gone too far.

 

[MyBelle]

Read the court document, it says she was admitted for the three procedures. Doesn't say procedures were decided during time of the operation. The family would be yelling about it to the media if that had happened.

It also doesn't say if the family or even the ICU nurses were aware all three procedures had been performed. But then, I wouldn't expect a legal document prepared by the hospital to reflect ALL of the facts.

 

[Isabelle]

How is it possible that the hospital "glosses" over the risks. The patient/guardian is given written documents (which contain all risks) to read and sign. Death is always a possible consequence of surgery, and it is included in the risks. If the patient/guardian doesn't understand something, questions need to be asked. It's not like the hospital hovers over the patient/guardian and demands a quick signature without an opportunity to read the documents. In fact, that patient is required to be 30 minutes early to complete the paperwork.

How was it possible to read documents and to sign them but ... at the same time ... that written information was "glossed over"? How does the hospital "gloss over" written information that is clearly understood by most patients?

Informed consent often occurs in the pre-op holding area. The surgeon rushes in, and with a nurse present (not always), papers are put before the patient/guardian and someone points to the line and says "sign here". There are very rare cases where time is allowed for questions/answers or discussion. The surgeon is usually running out of the room before the signature giving consent is complete. This is the norm. OT: a pediatric dentist was to perform prodecure/s on my then 3 year granddaughter and she was to be given sedation for this procedure. My daughter had never seen or met the dentist until just before the procedure, when I insisted that he speak to her and inform her what he was going to do to my granddaughter. I know the dentist is not as serious as surgery, but people have died under the effects of sedation in the dentist's chair. No one should ever perform any procedure on anyone unless it has been explained, except in the event of a life/death situation.