Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[Piekun]

I don't understand why posters here are so quick to forgive Children's for Jahi's condition, when SF General recently screwed up in the neglect disappearance of Lynne Spaulding. Hospitals are NOT perfect. I worked in Nursing Homes, Hospitals, and Home Health for 13 years.

Hospitals aren't perfect, of course. But just because something went wrong does not mean the hospital screwed up. Complications can happen, tragedies can occur without there being neglect involved. Of course, that doesn't mean they weren't negligent, but I'm not about to convict the hospital without a trial. I think it's way too early to place the blame.

While I sympathize with the family, I do feel like they have misrepresented the facts and have been overly inflammatory in some of the language they've used with regards to the hospital, which has made me also feel a lot of sympathy for the hospital as well because I don't believe they are bad people.

 

[Softail]

I don't understand why posters here are so quick to forgive Children's for Jahi's condition, when SF General recently screwed up in the neglect disappearance of Lynne Spaulding. Hospitals are NOT perfect. I worked in Nursing Homes, Hospitals, and Home Health for 13 years.

I think there are 2 different issues here. One is the surgery and how she became brain dead. I don't think there is enough information at this point to determine who is at fault. I'm not forgiving Children's, nor am I blaming them and I don't see many others who are. I do believe it will all come out.

The second issue is the family's insistence of keeping this deceased child on life support. I personally think they are playing games. That poor child deserves to be laid to rest. From what I have seen and read, the lawyer is playing games too. I believe the hospital when they say they have had no contact with any facility willing to take this deceased child, nor have I seen anything about any appeal. I happen to think they know EXACTLY what they are doing and why. :twocents:

 

[MyBelle]

I disagree.
Obesity made any sleep apnea worse, if it didn't totally cause it.


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I'm sorry but I don't believe all sleep apnea is caused by obesity nor do I believe the solution to all breathing problems is just to lose weight.

About 530,000 children under 15 have the procedure annually, according to the study, about 90 percent of them for treating sleep apnea.

The surgery rose 74 percent between 1996 and 2006, according to the academy, which represents 12,000 ear, nose and throat surgeons.

Dr. David Tunkel, director of pediatric otolaryngology at Johns Hopkins, says studies show a “benefit for most children, but not for all.”

“Often it’s the first step in trying to improve the severity of breathing problems,” he said.

http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2022510966_tonsilsdeathxml.html

 

[MLO]

***THIS POST IS COMPLETELY MY OPINION AND NOT A TERRIBLY POLITE ONE AT THAT, so be warned***

They're misinforming the donors for the money.

I mean, let's just be honest here. Her GRANDMOTHER is a nurse, they KNOW what's going on.

The moment someone brought up the money it totally clicked for me.

I agree. I'm not sure that scamming money would be my first thought after my child died, but there you go.

Early on I did buy the mother guilt, because I would have felt exactly the same (my 5 year old had his tonsils and adenoids out last year), but not now.

They blame the hospital but won't let the coroner find the cause of death. That's quite convenient.

Who would want to watch their child decompose before their eyes? Yuck. My family will be cremated because I can't stand the idea of their bodies rotting in the ground, let alone in front of me.

What about all of the other families who lost a loved one over the holiday. Did they get the court to intervene and ask death to take a break? I'm guessing no, because its not a normal thing to do. Death comes when it comes, you don't get to reschedule once its already happened.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I think there are 2 different issues here. One is the surgery and how she became brain dead. I don't think there is enough information at this point to determine who is at fault. I'm not forgiving Children's, nor am I blaming them and I don't see many others who are. I do believe it will all come out.

The second issue is the family's insistence of keeping this deceased child on life support. I personally think they are playing games. That poor child deserves to be laid to rest. From what I have seen and read, the lawyer is playing games too. I believe the hospital when they say they have had no contact with any facility willing to take this deceased child, nor have I seen anything about any appeal. I happen to think they know EXACTLY what they are doing and why. :twocents:

It could be just a diversion.
Not intentional. As long as they're fighting, they can avoid grieving.

I unwittingly used this particular defense mechanism myself from time to time. Not intentionally...it's like true denial, it just happens. Whatever is going on is just to painful to deal with, so the psyche devises protection modes.


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[Linda7NJ]

I'm sorry but I don't believe all sleep apnea is caused by obesity nor do I believe the solution to all breathing problems is just to lose weight.

About 530,000 children under 15 have the procedure annually, according to the study, about 90 percent of them for treating sleep apnea.

The surgery rose 74 percent between 1996 and 2006, according to the academy, which represents 12,000 ear, nose and throat surgeons.

Dr. David Tunkel, director of pediatric otolaryngology at Johns Hopkins, says studies show a “benefit for most children, but not for all.”

“Often it’s the first step in trying to improve the severity of breathing problems,” he said.

http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2022510966_tonsilsdeathxml.html

Okay. I'll take you and your links word for it.

I still believe her weight played a role in her demise.


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[MyBelle]

We don't know that the nurses didn't know or find out the cause and it is not anatomically self evident to me why sutures on the upper palate would cause massive bleeding to the brain.

The family as publicly stated the nurses said they didn't know. There is no reason for the family to lie about it.

The upper palate is next to the brain. Sutures that have been dislodged will bleed. Stopping bleeding is the reason the sutures are there in the first place.
I doubt the nurses would have given the child a straw, popsicle or anything to eat unless they were not aware there were sutures.

Uvulopalatopharyngoplasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[momrids6]

Jahi was bleeding heavily as her family entered her room. If there was suctioning done that caused harm, it was by staff not the family.

Only in 1 of the Uncle's accounts- there are a few different strories from the same Uncle.

After she asked for a popsicle, it became immediately clear that something was wrong.

In the family's minds, there didn't seem to be enough hospital staff in the room to help. The family started suctioning blood themselves; Jahi's grandmother, Sandra Chatman, is a nurse at another hospital.

“A 13-year-old should not have to suction herself,” Sealey said. “She had to use a suction machine to suction her own blood. Her mother and stepfather had to suction out her blood at points. None of them work for this hospital.”


http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Oakland-8th-Grader-Brain-Dead-After-236015681.html

 

[MyBelle]

Okay. I'll take you and your links word for it.

I still believe her weight played a role in her demise.


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I agree with you but for a different reason: Uvulopalatopharyngoplasty is not recommended for obese patients.

 

[Elley Mae]

Jahi was bleeding heavily as her family entered her room. . If there was suctioning done that caused harm, it was by staff not the family

bbm, That is not what has been said or reported by the family. Let's stick with the facts.

After she asked for a popsicle, it became immediately clear that something was wrong.

“A 13-year-old should not have to suction herself,” Sealey said. “She had to use a suction machine to suction her own blood. Her mother and stepfather had to suction out her blood at points. None of them work for this hospital.”

The family started suctioning blood themselves; Jahi's grandmother, Sandra Chatman, is a nurse at another hospital.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Oakland-8th-Grader-Brain-Dead-After-236015681.html

 

[momrids6]

The family as publicly stated the nurses said they didn't know. There is no reason for the family to lie about it.

The upper palate is next to the brain. Sutures that have been dislodged will bleed. Stopping bleeding is the reason the sutures are there in the first place.
I doubt the nurses would have given the child a straw, popsicle or anything to eat unless they were not aware there were sutures.

Uvulopalatopharyngoplasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The nurses did not give her anything to eat.

 

[MyBelle]

Only in 1 of the Uncle's accounts- there are a few different strories from the same Uncle.

After she asked for a popsicle, it became immediately clear that something was wrong.

In the family's minds, there didn't seem to be enough hospital staff in the room to help. The family started suctioning blood themselves; Jahi's grandmother, Sandra Chatman, is a nurse at another hospital.

“A 13-year-old should not have to suction herself,” Sealey said. “She had to use a suction machine to suction her own blood. Her mother and stepfather had to suction out her blood at points. None of them work for this hospital.”


http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Oakland-8th-Grader-Brain-Dead-After-236015681.html

Who gave her the popsicle? Is it standard to give a patient with a mouth full of stitches a stick to place in their mouth?

 

[Elley Mae]

Who gave her the popsicle? Is it standard to give a patient with a mouth full of stitches a stick to place in their mouth?

Do you have a link to stitches? TIA

 

[MyBelle]

bbm, That is not what has been said or reported by the family. Let's stick with the facts.

After she asked for a popsicle, it became immediately clear that something was wrong.

“A 13-year-old should not have to suction herself,” Sealey said. “She had to use a suction machine to suction her own blood. Her mother and stepfather had to suction out her blood at points. None of them work for this hospital.”

The family started suctioning blood themselves; Jahi's grandmother, Sandra Chatman, is a nurse at another hospital.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Oakland-8th-Grader-Brain-Dead-After-236015681.html

The suctioning started before the blood appeared? Why would they do that?

 

[MyBelle]

Do you have a link to stitches? TIA

Diagram of placement of sutures is included:

Uvulopalatopharyngoplasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Elley Mae]

Diagram of placement of sutures is included:

Uvulopalatopharyngoplasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I asked for a link that she had/has stitches. TIA still waiting.

 

[Minette]

We do not know whether the hospital did anything wrong OR whether the family did anything wrong. Until the coroner is finally able to perform an autopsy and/or the family permits the hospital to discuss the case we do not have any medical records or post-mortem findings to discuss WHAT happened.

I am extremely sorry for the family's loss, but when they start encouraging supporters to inundate the chief of pediatrics with calls (because surely, HE can make a decision that goes against the law of California, the decision of the court, the decision of the hospital administration and generally accepted medical ethics) and show up en masse to a hospital where there are--let it be remembered--many other people fighting for their lives and grieving families trying to cope, I lose a great deal of compassion for them.

 

[momrids6]

To everyone's relief, she appeared alert, was talking and even ate a Popsicle afterward.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/21/jahi-mcmath-life-support_n_4485119.html

In local television interviews the mother and grandmother said plenty about who did what and who followed post op procedures.

 

[MyBelle]

I asked for a link that she had/has stitches. TIA still waiting.

The link appeared in my post. Here it is again:

Uvulopalatopharyngoplasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[EmmaliLucia]

The family as publicly stated the nurses said they didn't know. There is no reason for the family to lie about it.

The upper palate is next to the brain. Sutures that have been dislodged will bleed. Stopping bleeding is the reason the sutures are there in the first place.
I doubt the nurses would have given the child a straw, popsicle or anything to eat unless they were not aware there were sutures.

Uvulopalatopharyngoplasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BBM

Money, public sympathy, maybe even a leg up in the court of law.

They have so many reasons to lie about that. They lied about her being perfectly healthy (She had sleep apnea and was morbidly obese, nothing about that is healthy), they lied about a "Routine tonsillectomy" (and we know that they signed off for, and knew about, all the procedures she underwent that day).

I can imagine that the nurse MIGHT have said that she didn't know because she was not authorized to tell them.

When I broke my foot I had an x-ray technician talking to me the whole time. My foot was DESTROYED, like, one bone was sideways, and I asked if it was broken (Looking at these x-rays while they were coming in, BTW) and he said "I am only authorized to tell you that I don't know." I actually started laughing hysterically.