Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[Elley Mae]

The link appeared in my post. Here it is again:

Uvulopalatopharyngoplasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not a wiki link, a news link that jahi mcmath has/had stitches.

 

[MLO]

There is also an address to send monetary donations to on the Prayers for Jahi FB page. I'm curious how much they've received and where the money is going.

GoFundMe claimed it was going to a flight to get her out if the hospital and that's obviously not the case.

My patience has run out with this family. I can only imagine how the other patients, nurses, doctors and the rest of those at CHO feel right about now.

Yes, this is why I think they are scamming. If they had said "we are devastated, we can't work, give us cash so we don't have to and can grieve at home", whatever, I've given money to people in that position before.

Saying "She's getting better, she's moving, she's breathing, the hospital wants to kill her, help us rescue her", is a lie and asking people to give money based on that lie.

It also smacks of a religious scam to me. They are asking people to pray and give money. They are saying that science/doctors say there is no hope. They know better and that god will heal her. They ask people to pray for god to heal her. Then they lie and say that she is being healed. Those people who are praying then think it is working, their prayer will continue to work which means this family will need money, lots of it, to continue to care for their child.

 

[Donjeta]

The family as publicly stated the nurses said they didn't know. There is no reason for the family to lie about it.

The upper palate is next to the brain. Sutures that have been dislodged will bleed. Stopping bleeding is the reason the sutures are there in the first place.
I doubt the nurses would have given the child a straw, popsicle or anything to eat unless they were not aware there were sutures.

Uvulopalatopharyngoplasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You wrote that according to the family some the nurses said they didn't know if the bleeding was normal, not that they didn't know that there were sutures. That is totally different imo. "is this normal?" "I don't know" could be just something nurses might say if they're worried but don't want to worry the family just yet.

The upper palate is near the brain, but there are some anatomical obstacles between the brain and the area where Jahi was bleeding, including the base of the skull and the meninges protecting the brain. There are some holes in the base of the skull but I've never heard of a case of ruptured sutures in the throat bleeding into the brain. It was reported that Jahi got her brain damage as a result of the heart attack and brain swelling, not because of bleeding in the brain.

I read that Jahi asked for a popsicle but I never read what, if anything, the nurses gave her to eat. Her throat would likely have been sore and swallowing would have been painful.

 

[MLO]

I don't think the mother was pushing for this surgery since she took Jahi to another doctor for a second opinion. I do think the mother took the surgery seriously.

It is possible that the first opinion was that surgery should be avoided, postponed or wasn't needed. I have done the same thing- We wanted grommets for my 18 month old but the opinion of the ENT was that his hearing was fine, his ears were full of wax and he couldn't explain the dog food smell coming from my child's head. After fighting him I got a second opinion and pushed for the surgery. I got it- his ears were occluded with wax (not just full), his ear drums were badly scared from infections, he started speaking again, started walking again and no longer smelled rancid!

It was a win for us, BUT had something gone wrong, I would have blamed myself for seeking the second opinion. I would have wished like crazy that I had gone with the first. It is only now, that he is healthy and we have the benefit of hind sight that I know I was right and the right choices were made.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

Note: This headline is outrageous!

http://www.lifenews.com/2013/12/24/...ling-jahi-mcmath-taking-her-off-life-support/

I think the grandmother is standing with the family.

"Jahi’s grandmother is a nurse, and one of the first people who noticed that something was wrong after Jahi’s tonsillectomy earlier this month. She and Jahi’s family believe that Jahi deserves to be examined and assessed by a physician who was not part of the team that erred in the first place, causing Jahi’s complications to begin with.

Jahi’s grandmother said,"It’s wrong for someone who made mistakes on your child to just call the coroner … and not respect the family’s feeling or rights,” Sandra Chatman, Jahi’s grandmother and a registered nurse, said in the hallway outside the courtroom. I know Jahi suffered, and it tears me up."

This is from a pro-life website. Before you even read the article, you know their POV. I do take some exception to one thing the grandmother said (BBM):

It’s wrong for someone who made mistakes on your child to just call the coroner … and not respect the family’s feeling or rights,” Sandra Chatman, Jahi’s grandmother and a registered nurse, said in the hallway outside the courtroom. I know Jahi suffered, and it tears me up.

I can understand blaming the surgeon for making a mistake considering her feelings about her granddaughter, but how can she know he/she made a mistake? Bleeding is a well-documented complication after surgery in the mouth and throat. Were stitches broken when Jahi coughed? Did she continue to cough to spit up blood and do more damage? At what point did the grandmother suction her? How long after she began to hemorrhage did a member of the medical team get to her? Was Jahi a "bleeder"?

We only know what the family has said. Some here have pointed out that, in their situation, one's sense of time can become distorted. What we may also never know is how long the response time was in the NICU.

By this time, Jahi has probably healed so much that a surgical error may not be discovered. The fact that she was awake and alert for about 3 hours after the surgery suggests to me that it was a post-operative situation and not a surgical error. We may never know.

 

[Piekun]

I don't really think family is deliberately lying to get money. I think they honestly believe she is showing signs of not being brain dead, but I think they're just misinterpreting things and seeing what they want to see.

 

[MyBelle]

Not a wiki link, a news link that jahi mcmath has/had stitches.

The hospital told the court she had the surgical procedure. In a case where a child lost four pints of blood through her nose and mouth does there really have to be a news story for you to believe the surgical removal of tissue tissue from the mouth and throat involved sutures?

http://www.ohioentdocs.com/resources/files/UP3 Pre-post.pdf?size=199838

 

[Donjeta]

Who gave her the popsicle? Is it standard to give a patient with a mouth full of stitches a stick to place in their mouth?

Google uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and popsicles and you will find a ton of sites of patient instructions actually recommending popsicles as a source of fluids:

eg.
http://www.windsorent.com/post-op/uvulopalatopharyngoplasty-uppp/

 

[SophieRose]

Who gave her the popsicle? Is it standard to give a patient with a mouth full of stitches a stick to place in their mouth?

Here's the mother declaration of what happened after surgery given to the court.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/165738685/Declaration-of-Latasha-final

Jahi ASKED for a popsicle in the recovery room.

Mother also says it was to be a routine tonsillectomy/adenoidectomy and was told it would be an in-and-out procedure.

Says Jahi was taken to ICU and she was not told why.

 

[LinasK]

I don't really think family is deliberately lying to get money. I think they honestly believe she is showing signs of not being brain dead, but I think they're just misinterpreting things and seeing what they want to see.

I agree with you, and were it my child, I would feel the same way. I wouldn't want people forcing me to pull the plug.

 

[MLO]

I don't understand why posters here are so quick to forgive Children's for Jahi's condition, when SF General recently screwed up in the neglect disappearance/death of Lynne Spaulding. Hospitals are NOT perfect. I worked in Nursing Homes, Hospitals, and Home Health for 13 years.

Because it is the family acting shifty, not the hospital. The family berate the hospital, without giving the hospital the right of reply. The hospital are asking to share their side of the story, the family silence them. Why? There is no proof the hospital has done anything wrong at all. The family are telling people that their dead child is getting better, so I'm sure as hell not going to take their word about medical facts.

 

[MyBelle]

You wrote that according to the family some the nurses said they didn't know if the bleeding was normal, not that they didn't know that there were sutures. That is totally different imo. "is this normal?" "I don't know" could be just something nurses might say if they're worried but don't want to worry the family just yet.

The upper palate is near the brain, but there are some anatomical obstacles between the brain and the area where Jahi was bleeding, including the base of the skull and the meninges protecting the brain. There are some holes in the base of the skull but I've never heard of a case of ruptured sutures in the throat bleeding into the brain. It was reported that Jahi got her brain damage as a result of the heart attack and brain swelling, not because of bleeding in the brain.

I read that Jahi asked for a popsicle but I never read what, if anything, the nurses gave her to eat. Her throat would likely have been sore and swallowing would have been painful.

Shouldn't an ICU nurse know what is normal bleeding following a surgical procedure and what a patient can take by mouth?

 

[Donjeta]

Shouldn't an ICU nurse know what is normal bleeding following a surgical procedure and what a patient can take by mouth?

I will be the first to berate them after someone presents evidence that they did not know.

 

[gngr~snap]

I agree with you but for a different reason: Uvulopalatopharyngoplasty is not recommended for obese patients.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8579865/?i=4&from=/8579866/related
Acoording to this and in my nursing experience, it is also often done with a tracheostomy to prevent post operative issue. It is also not recommended that any other procedures be done at the same time
Had she been given a trach,they would have been able to pack her better to aviod serious bleeding.

Moo

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2

 

[MLO]

I've made myself abundantly clear. I believe there is more than enough blame to go around. That's my opinion.



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Well, the family are now distancing themselves from the blame. She was perfectly healthy when she walked in, remember! She didn't wet the bed, she didn't have sleep apnoea, she wasn't obese...

Do perfectly healthy people need complex surgeries to fix their health problems?

 

[Cubby]

Jahi was bleeding heavily as her family entered her room. If there was suctioning done that caused harm, it was by staff not the family.

We don't know when Jahi began bleeding. Nor do we know when she began bleeding heavily. We can not rule out the the possibility the heavy bleeding began after her family chose to suction her. Based on the uncles comments (paraphrased from memory, linked upthread) complaining the family who are not hospital employees had to suction.

AFAIK the family took it upon themselves to do the suctioning without the request or knowledge of hospital staff.




I can't

 

[Linda7NJ]

Who gave her the popsicle? Is it standard to give a patient with a mouth full of stitches a stick to place in their mouth?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[MyBelle]

Here's the mother declaration of what happened after surgery given to the court.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/165738685/Declaration-of-Latasha-final

Jahi ASKED for a popsicle in the recovery room.

Mother also says it was to be a routine tonsillectomy/adenoidectomy and was told it would be an in-and-out procedure.

Says Jahi was taken to ICU and she was not told why.

That is really helpful. Thanks. Not only the family but their attorney have asked for the medical records and it is Durand who has denied their request.

 

[momrids6]

When Jahi came out of surgery, she appeared healthy and alert, and was eating a Popsicle, her mother said. The girl was talking and reading notes before blood began pouring from her nose and mouth, she said.

Handwritten notes that Jahi wrote after her surgery -- one read, "Am I OK?" -- are missing too, family members said.

Her family has not left her side during her hospital stay, including Sealey, who has slept in Jahi's room.


So, who took the notes if the family has not left her side?



http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...d-family-girl-brain-dead-after-tonsil-surgery

 

[SeekingJana]

I don't think we have the " official version" of when or why Jahi went to ICU post- surgery but I would like to explain how an ICU nurse or a SICU ( surgical ICU) nurse receives a patient from surgery:

The Surgical Nurse or nurses ( usually 2) transport the patient to ICU. Upon arrival, they go to the bedside and a visual and oral report is given to the receiving ICU nurse with the CHART in hand. Specifically, the OPERATIVE REPORT NOTES which are usually hand- written by the doctor, anesthesiologist and surgical nurses are referenced and any abnormality during the peri-operative or immediate post- operative period is reported.

All tubes, lines, fluids, AND THE POST OP ORDERS are read by both the surgical nurses and the ICU nurses. IF the surgical nurses have heard the surgeon say something he wants for the patient but did not write down, they CALL the surgeon and ask for clarification. ( this is fairly uncommon as the surgeon writes the orders last thing out).

I have NEVER received a patient from surgery, INCLUDING BRAIN SURGERY, in a situation where I did not know exactly what was done, what the findings were known to be at that time, and the care that was to be rendered to the patient.

Once the patient's chart was signed by the OR nurses there, which was after initial ICU vital signs were taken and recorded on the OR or PACU sheet, they left.
The patient was then my responsibility and the responsibility of my co-workers.

I have never not known the diagnosis, or the procedures performed except in ONE CASE many years ago.
A surgeon nicked a person's spleen during an abdominal surgery, did NOT record it, and only told the patient verbally, not in writing. It was a surgical error, and was treated as one. It did not affect the care given, though, as there was already an abdominal incision, etc.

Unless you have reason to KNOW that the ICU nurses goofed or were negligent, I think it's best to refrain from casting such a wide net of blame. There may have been a problem evident during the transfer report... If so, the proper procedure would have been to get the surgeon right in the ICU immediately. The nurse or nurses should have informed the proper supervisor who would have paged/ called/ gone to OR and found him.
Their attention was to be on Jahi. Not phones or paging the surgeon, but taking care of their patient, especially if bleeding had already started. The head nurse or nursing supervisor was responsible for getting the surgeon to the bedside, or receiving communication that she was to return to the O.R. with support- resp. therapy, for example.