Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

[Linda7NJ]

I think her point is that it usually ends within weeks.

But I suppose that people who are not brain dead would not last too long without nutrition either so that is a confounding factor in determining the survival prognosis.

Shewmon's abstract said that the braindead who had a primary brain injury tended to survive longer than the ones who had more systemic ailments which I guess makes perfect sense.

The hospital benefits if she dies. If she continues to exist, they cost for them will be far greater. On comparison the payout for a dead child is far less than the cost of maintaining her long term.

If everyone is so damn sure she'll succumb in mere weeks... Ask yourself, why not let nature takes it course?

Everyone seems so concerned the families motive is money. The money won in any lawsuit would be placed in a special needs trust for the child. The family would get very little in comparison.

If she dies, the family would get all of any lawsuit money.

The only one benefitting from her death is those fighting so hard for it. I have to say. The hospital is the one with motive.... If anyone motives are shady...it's theirs.


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[momrids6]

apparently there is a doctor who wants to perform the procedures but the hospital is blocking them from doing so on their property. So the courts would be forcing the hospital to allow the doctor to do what they already want to do.

I have not seen any reports of any doctor willing to perform the procedures...( I am not being snarky) Is there a link anywhere?

 

[Steft50]

So by that standard, after a reasonable period of time if someone isn't well enough to breath on their own, improve enough to walk out or be wheeled out in a chair someday they don't deserve to live? After two weeks in a coma, let's yank out that plug and call it over!

Well let's start the unplugging now!

Look at all $$$$$$ that would save!!!!!


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I beleive you missed the point made in the last sentence. The mother has stated she wants her daughter "fixed" and she appears to be getting her information from these folks that claim brain dead is not dead. Will this child be "fixed" by doing what these folks believe in? I think in your rush to reply you missed the part that even you have stumbled with...this child is not in a coma, she is not brain damaged...she is brain dead.

I'm also curious about the whole vent thing....see I have stage 4 COPD, a simple case of the flu can put me on a vent and I'm trying to figure out for myself how far I want to go and for how long before I want no more.

 

[Linda7NJ]

But she is not in a coma. She is brain dead. Big difference. In a coma, the brain
is still capable of 'functioning' at some point in the future. Everything is on hold.

if she was in a prolonged coma, then there would be valid reasons for long term care. But from what I understand, even according to the doctor they are touting, nobody comes back from this condition.

I understand the difference. If you read my prior posts on the topic you'd understand my position.

To me personally, there is no difference. Persistent vegetated state and brain dead IMO for ME and MINE is one in the same.

I understand others feel differently. I respect everyone's opinion.

I respect this mother and her opinion.
I respect the medical determination of brain death.




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[mck16]

what makes you think she looks bad? Have you ever seen someone in person on a vent? She probably just looks like she's sleeping.

My son was on a vent for 14 days. He lost 30 pounds. The noise of the vent was horrific, and he was on a striker bed that kept him turning from side to side. A tube down his throat into his lungs. It was a terrible time.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Because miracles do happen. Look at the 3 women who were found alive in Cleveland after years of being missing.

That wasn't a miracle. That was due to a courageous young woman that was determined to break free.


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[katydid23]

What doctor? From what has been reported, hospital says they will allow a doctor to do that.

i heard an interview with the uncle today on KCBS radio, a SF station. I was in the car so I don't have a copy of it. But according to the uncle, they have a doctor who wants to do the procedures, but the hospital was not going to allow this doctor to have hospital privileges for some reason. Now keep in mind this is the uncles version of events, so i dont know what the full story is.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

The hospital benefits if she dies. If she continues to exist, they cost for them will be far greater. On comparison the payout for a dead child is far less than the cost of maintaining her long term.

If everyone is so damn sure she'll succumb in mere weeks... Ask yourself, why not let nature takes it course?

Everyone seems so concerned the families motive is money. The money won in any lawsuit would be placed in a special needs trust for the child. The family would get very little in comparison.

If she dies, the family would get all of any lawsuit money.

The only one benefitting from her death is those fighting so hard for it. I have to say. The hospital is the one with motive.... If anyone motives are shady...it's theirs.


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This is not just their policy. It is the policy of all hospitals for those that are legally declared brain dead. This is why no other facility has taken her.

 

[meme4]

after how long?

3 months, he had emergency bypass because he went into cardiac arrest......he was on a vent for a time., had a feeding tube, he did wear an oxygen mask from time to time, his eyes were open,he moved, and felt pain, as I said he was in a vegatative state with a very bleak outlook...We were told after he taken off the vent , if he went into arrest they would have to crack his ribs and manually massage his heart,A DNR was put in place..

 

[Donjeta]

The hospital benefits if she dies. If she continues to exist, they cost for them will be far greater. On comparison the payout for a dead child is far less than the cost of maintaining her long term.

If everyone is so damn sure she'll succumb in mere weeks... Ask yourself, why not let nature takes it course?

Everyone seems so concerned the families motive is money. The money won in any lawsuit would be placed in a special needs trust for the child. The family would get very little in comparison.

If she dies, the family would get all of any lawsuit money.

The only one benefitting from her death is those fighting so hard for it. I have to say. The hospital is the one with motive.... If anyone motives are shady...it's theirs.


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I am not opposed to the family getting money. Their child died after an operation, and she shouldn't have. I believe it is not abnormal that there is some sort of a financial settlement with the family.

What is happening here is against what I believe in, I think she should have been let go. But this circus is not respectful of her either so if it was up to me I'd let them take her home and get some nursing help with the settlement money. One of the miracle doctors with no ethical quandaries could perform the surgery for big bucks.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I beleive you missed the point made in the last sentence. The mother has stated she wants her daughter "fixed" and she appears to be getting her information from these folks that claim brain dead is not dead. Will this child be "fixed" by doing what these folks believe in? I think in your rush to reply you missed the part that even you have stumbled with...this child is not in a coma, she is not brain damaged...she is brain dead.



I'm also curious about the whole vent thing....see I have stage 4 COPD, a simple case of the flu can put me on a vent and I'm trying to figure out for myself how far I want to go and for how long before I want no more.

I've missed nothing. I've been posting on this topic from the start.

This mother believes in prayers and miracles. I hate repeating myself so I won't torture everyone else reading here....but feel free to search an read my prior posts.


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[mck16]

I am not opposed to the family getting money. Their child died after an operation, and she shouldn't have. I believe it is not abnormal that there is some sort of a financial settlement with the family.

What is happening here is against what I believe in, I think she should have been let go. But this circus is not respectful of her either so if it was up to me I'd let them take her home and get some nursing help with the settlement money. One of the miracle doctors with no ethical quandaries could perform the surgery for big bucks.

There has been no autopsy or no death certificate so do we even know the cause of death? It could have been a condition that she could have died from anyway. I don't want to sound harsh, but how does anyone know that mistakes were even made. jmo

 

[Charlie09]

3 months, he had emergency bypass because he went into cardiac arrest......he was on a vent for a time., had a feeding tube, he did wear an oxygen mask from time to time, his eyes were open,he moved, and felt pain, as I said he was in a vegatative state with a very bleak outlook...We were told after he taken off the vent , if he went into arrest they would have to crack his ribs and manually massage his heart,A DNR was put in place..

Different scenario....
My brother lost a lot of weight too (He was never thick to begin with) and was on a vent for 75 days...so I know people change, but to suggest she's just decomposing is incorrect.


also...if the brain was totally dead, there would be no involuntary movement either...and there reportedly is.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I am not opposed to the family getting money. Their child died after an operation, and she shouldn't have. I believe it is not abnormal that there is some sort of a financial settlement with the family.



What is happening here is against what I believe in, I think she should have been let go. But this circus is not respectful of her either so if it was up to me I'd let them take her home and get some nursing help with the settlement money. One of the miracle doctors with no ethical quandaries could perform the surgery for big bucks.

It's against what I personally, for me and my family believe in too. It's a very very sad case for sure.


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[Donjeta]

There has been no autopsy or no death certificate so do we even know the cause of death? It could have been a condition that she could have died from anyway. I don't want to sound harsh, but how does anyone know that mistakes were even made. jmo

I have no idea but I think that when a patient dies unexpectedly the insurance companies may sometimes prefer to settle anyway to avoid the lawsuits

 

[Steft50]

I've missed nothing. I've been posting on this topic from the start.

This mother believes in prayers and miracles. I hate repeating myself so I won't torture everyone else reading here....but feel free to search an read my prior posts.


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"So by that standard, after a reasonable period of time if someone isn't well enough to breath on their own, improve enough to walk out or be wheeled out in a chair someday they don't deserve to live? After two weeks in a coma, let's yank out that plug and call it over!

Well let's start the unplugging now!

Look at all $$$$$$ that would save!!!!!"

My questions were directly related to those diagnosed brain dead as is this little girl. Your reply was about everyone in a coma, so you did miss the point of my questions.

I have read this entire thread, and the one before it. I chose not to reply until today, maybe I should have kept it that way.

 

[meme4]

Her brain is not recieving any blood, it is not functioning, I never said she was decomposing...But there have been changes in her brain.....I know what my father looked like, I know what he endured, I was there everyday....As part of his therapy they sat him in a chair and tied him to it.....No one and I mean no one deserves to live like that.......Those are involuntary movements, she has no controlof that, just as she is not holding anyones hands....My fathers hands were bent like that, I would place rolled wash cloths in them to straighten them....When you are desperate you will say and believe anything....

 

[mck16]

I have no idea but I think that when a patient dies unexpectedly the insurance companies may sometimes prefer to settle anyway to avoid the lawsuits

You are right, and that is what has caused malpractice insurance for docs to be so high and completely unrealistic. Ins. settles even if the doc, nurses, etc. are completely innocent.

 

[jjenny]

Different scenario....
My brother lost a lot of weight too (He was never thick to begin with) and was on a vent for 75 days...so I know people change, but to suggest she's just decomposing is incorrect.


also...if the brain was totally dead, there would be no involuntary movement either...and there reportedly is.

That's not true. Brain dead pesons can have involuntary movements.

“We found that these movements are more common than has been reported or believed,” said neurologist and study author José Bueri, MD, of J. M. Ramos Mejia Hospital in Buenos Aires, Argentina. “People need to know that these movements are spinal reflexes that do not involve any brain activity.”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/01/000113080008.htm

 

[Linda7NJ]

Different scenario....

My brother lost a lot of weight too (He was never thick to begin with) and was on a vent for 75 days...so I know people change, but to suggest she's just decomposing is incorrect.





also...if the brain was totally dead, there would be no involuntary movement either...and there reportedly is.

I posted on the last thread about a friend of mine that suffered a TBI and wasn't expected to live. Within 48 hours her mother was asked to donate her organs. Her mother refused.
Good thing too! Today is a perfectly fine hard working mother of two.

No, she wasn't determined to be brain dead specifically, ) that I'm aware of anyway) she was in a coma and had severe brain swelling, vent,,etc etc...and I lived in the trauma units waiting room for over a week.

But it stuck with me...what would have happened if her mother consented?


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