Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

[Steft50]

I found it interesting that there wasn't any response at all from Singer as to a meeting to resolve issues yet he did seem willing to take the time to hurl a few insults at the attorney. Childish.
None of this is helping anyone move along. IMO

ETA Dolan asked for a time and place to discuss issues which seems reasonable to me.

Just guessing off the top of my head....Dolans clients can be anywhere at any time as currently their only concern is their daughter and they are there 24/7. Whereas those from the hospital and medical staff who would need to be in this so called meeting would have full schedules that would need to be consulted. While that may sound cold and crass, the reality is this family and this little girl are not the only parents and children the staff and Doctors of this hospital have to see.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Again, if a brain dead person can last 20 years on a ventillator, then how can it possibly be accurate for somebody to claim that the heart will stop a short time after brain death?

Obviously the person surviving 20 years was in some sort of coma or other state and NOT brain dead. By other medical doctors opinions.

I prefer to look at and consider information from all sides of a debate, not just those that support my own point of view.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[kimlynn]

Just guessing off the top of my head....Dolans clients can be anywhere at any time as currently their only concern is their daughter and they are there 24/7. Whereas those from the hospital and medical staff who would need to be in this so called meeting would have full schedules that would need to be consulted. While that may sound cold and crass, the reality is this family and this little girl are not the only parents and children the staff and Doctors of this hospital have to see.

That sounds reasonable,but still a response from Singer could have been that he would be in touch or that he would love a meeting and that he would set it up.
I found the lack of response telling. IMO

 

[vlpate]

I had read a couple of articles on Zack and thought wait a minute -here is someone who deemed brain dead and recovered but upon further investigation this was a post by someone that led me to believe that Zack did not have accepted criteria brain death testing.

This was a post by someone answering a blogger who was posting about Zack's miraculous recovery.



I shudder to think that Zack's physician only used a scan to determine if Zack was brain dead because obviously he was able to breathe on his own when disconnected from the ventilator and the doctor did not perform the neurological testing to be sure.

Here is another site that mentions the test done on Zack... this author, an MD, states that after a head injury the severity of Zack's, and given his age, it would have been preferable to wait at least 72 hours..

A PET scan was performed at 36 hours. PET scanning (technically referred to as Technetium-99m hexamethylpropyleneamineoxime brain scan) is a measure of blood flow to the brain.

<snip>

There is no need to invoke either a miracle or medical mystery in this case. The simplest explanation is that the PET scan was either in error, or was reflecting a reversible situation.

<snip>

To summarize – in this case the clinical determination of brain death was made too early to be definitive.

If you read the article, you may, as I did, get the feeling that this doctor may have been jumping the gun on taking Zack's organs. His license allowed for the organ harvesting. At the end of the day, he wasn't brain dead, obviously.

 

[SophieRose]

Obviously the person surviving 20 years was in some sort of coma or other state and NOT brain dead. By other medical doctors opinions.

I prefer to look at and consider information from all sides of a debate, not just those that support my own point of view.

The boy was not in a coma, he was part of a brain death study done by Alan Shewmon, a pediatric neurologist at UCLA.

 

[Karmady]

I checked the RN verification here: no results.

https://www.breeze.ca.gov/datamart/selSearchTypeCADCA.do?from=loginPage

Thanks, momrids. I didn't check that site search tool since it requires registration, but I figured that an RN would have been in the related license section of the lvn search function if there was one. Btw, I don't know her middle name, but the only name that came up with that first and last name was the one with the m. as the middle initial. So if the LVN that comes up in the search is not her, she would be neither and LVN or an RN. I doubt that. jmo

 

[Linda7NJ]

Moreover, surgeons have observed that brain-dead patients frequently react strongly to surgical incision at the time of organ procurement, with a rapidly increasing heart rate and a dramatic rise in blood pressure. Because of these signs of distress, donors are sometimes anesthetized during organ retrieval. Again, one must ask, what purpose would anesthesia serve for a corpse?

Byrne and his colleagues bring the argument to its logical conclusion when they maintain that it is impossible to remove vital organs from a corpse and successfully use those organs for transplant. If brain-dead patients were actually dead by classical criteria, the lack of oxygen would quickly cause their organs to deteriorate. According to Byrne:

The present state of the art for these vital organs is such that they have to come from someone who is alive. It takes about an hour of operating to get the heart out, during which time the heart has to be living, and many other organs and systems of the body are also functioning. Likewise, to get a liver out takes perhaps three hours of operating. Without circulation, the heart becomes unable to be used for transplant in about three or four minutes. Likewise the liver becomes not useful for transplant in about three or four minutes.
"Moreover, surgeons have observed that brain-dead patients frequently react strongly to surgical incision at the time of organ procurement, with a rapidly increasing heart rate and a dramatic rise in blood pressure. Because of these signs of distress, donors are sometimes anesthetized during organ retrieval. Again, one must ask, what purpose would anesthesia serve for a corpse?"



http://catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0054.html



Very informative and very balanced. Worth the read.



I sniped the part above because it horrified me!



It's not representative of the entire article.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[vlpate]

That sounds reasonable,but still a response from Singer could have been that he would be in touch or that he would love a meeting and that he would set it up.
I found the lack of response telling. IMO

Do you have a link for this presser.. I might have missed it, tablet jumping around on me. Thank you.

 

[popsicle]

The patient at the centre of this case was Jesse Koochin, a six year old boy suffering from &#8220;inoperable and incurable&#8221; brain cancer. He had been undergoing care at Primary Children&#8217;s Medical Center in Salt Lake City since September 15, 2004 when &#8220;his tumor pushed his brain stem down through the skull&#8221;.1 Subsequently, two physicians independently determined that the child was &#8220;brain dead&#8221; and informed his parents that they would order life support removed within twenty four hours. Steve and Gayle Koochin overtly rejected the hospital&#8217;s definition of death. The couple, relying on traditional notions of cardiopulmonary death, obtained a restraining order to keep Jesse on a ventilator and ultimately removed the brain dead child from the hospital.

He died at home a month later.

In 1994, the parents of 13 year old Teresa Hamilton&#8212;a severe diabetic who fell into a coma&#8212;resisted a Florida hospital&#8217;s efforts to remove their daughter from a ventilator. Three scans showed the girl to have no blood flow to her brain, but her parents insisted her brain was merely &#8220;resting&#8221;.14 The hospital and the family eventually reached a widely criticised agreement through which the girl was sent home on a ventilator at the hospital&#8217;s expense; she suffered a conclusive heart attack four months later.

http://jme.bmj.com/content/31/11/641.full

 

[MyBelle]

If they are an outpatient facility, I presume they are not even licensed to keep a patient there full time on a ventillator (brain dead or otherwise).

Why do you presume they are not licensed? I think they have all necessary licenses because they are going to open an in-patient facility.

 

[Herat]

The family attorney is trying to use the media to bully the hospital. The family attorney is well aware of the laws as far as what can and cannot be done. The family attorney is well aware that no physician can be forced to perform a procedure. The family attorney is also well aware that this outpatient facility is not a option that can take care of Jahi. By this time the family attorney is also well aware that no other facility or physician has stepped up to take Jahi elsewhere and keep her or perform surgery on her.

What is there for them to discuss that hasn't already been discussed?

The hospital has told them to find a facility that can and will take her. They have not found a facility that "can" take her.

EXACTLY

If this facility was a real option, don't you think a family member would have already visited there to see for themselves- the grandmother with medical experience, for example. Funds don't seem to be a problem in buying an airline ticket to New York.

It's an attorney bullying tactic meant to goad the hospital into doing or saying something inappropriate. In this situation, I think CHO sticking to their statement and avoiding negotiations is the way to go, at least until Jan 7.

As the attorney has also now filed another statement to the court about violation of rights and the family's religious right to determine death, there is just no reason to have a discussion until the court makes a ruling. It shouldn't take long for the court to strike that motion down.

 

[Harmony 2]

New thread is open please click below and commence moving over as this thread will close in 10 minutes. thanks

Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #3 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Herat]

Why do you presume they are not licensed? I think they have all necessary licenses because they are going to open an in-patient facility.

There is no way they are getting a license without having a facility that is currently operating at the level of care they request. An on-site inspection is required to validate the application.

 

[kimlynn]

Do you have a link for this presser.. I might have missed it, tablet jumping around on me. Thank you.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/vi...er-hospital-spokesperson-confront-each-other/

 

[BeginnersLuck]

If the family attorney wants things differently than what the law reads, then he needs to address the legislation that was enacted by the courts. He is wasting his breath with this media spectacle. The only reason he is doing it, is to make the hospital look bad, because the GP is ignorant on the facts surrounding these matters.

 

[Herat]

Why do you presume they are not licensed? I think they have all necessary licenses because they are going to open an in-patient facility.

They cannot open as an inpatient facility without a CMS (Medicare) qualifying on-site inspection/ There are very specific standards that have to be met and the inspector(s) need to validate they exist before they are allowed to accept patients. It is not simply a paper transaction. The cannot contract away their responsibilities for quality patient care.

 

[Linda7NJ]

He died at home a month later.



http://jme.bmj.com/content/31/11/641.full

I'm happy for those two parents. They ultimately had a voice in how the child they brought into this world should leave it.

So...it's happened at least twice before. I see no mad rush, no new trend. That's what those families needed. No harm, no foul.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MyBelle]

The family attorney is trying to use the media to bully the hospital. The family attorney is well aware of the laws as far as what can and cannot be done. The family attorney is well aware that no physician can be forced to perform a procedure. The family attorney is also well aware that this outpatient facility is not a option that can take care of Jahi. By this time the family attorney is also well aware that no other facility or physician has stepped up to take Jahi elsewhere and keep her or perform surgery on her.

What is there for them to discuss that hasn't already been discussed?

The hospital has told them to find a facility that can and will take her. They have not found a facility that "can" take her.

You are absolutely right. The family attorney is also aware that there is no legal reason for the hospital to NOT place a feeding tube or trach.

Of course the hospital would avoid a discussion because they know the Dept of Health has opened an investigation.

 

[iluvmua]

You are absolutely right. The family attorney is also aware that there is no legal reason for the hospital to NOT place a feeding tube or trach.

Of course the hospital would avoid a discussion because they know the Dept of Health has opened an investigation.

Yes, there IS a legal reason why they are not placing a feeding tube etc.

The court ordered them not to and they are following the rules.

ANY doctor who performs on a dead body is in BIG BIG trouble.

 

[jjenny]

You are absolutely right. The family attorney is also aware that there is no legal reason for the hospital to NOT place a feeding tube or trach.

Of course the hospital would avoid a discussion because they know the Dept of Health has opened an investigation.

She is legally dead. So in hospital's view it's not ethical to place a feeding tube into a legally dead individual.