Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #3

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  • #641
I would be interested in knowing what the total cost has been since Jahi was declared brain dead. Of course the family will never see the bill and the burden will be CHO to absorb it. And of course all the people that think it is evil for a hospital to charge for services and not be reimbursed especially in this situation.

But if she were transferred then the reality would hit of how they are going to pay. Unless this facility plans to provide free care in exchange for what? Publicity. Crowd funding would only get her through the 1rst week or so and then unless they stay in the headlines finding donations to keep her there will dry up.

I think they are just buying time legally forcing CHO to keep her indefinitely until she "wakes up" or they find another place.
 
  • #642
It is enough money coming in via various avenues to 1) pay off a house 2) expand a church 3) pay some bills ....
etc, etc.

JMO , MOO
 
  • #643
I agree, but I can't help wishing the hospital's insurer would show up at the mediation with a $5 million settlement offer -- kind of as an integrity check iykwim

No. Freakin'. Way.
 
  • #644
THIS

The one line the family has mentioned over and over and over again is supposedly Dr. David Durand, Chief of Pediatrics at CHO saying [she is "dead, dead, dead"]. As if he was jumping up and down screaming it.

I do not know if that is true, but this family would really try the patience of Job and some times plain speaking is needed in to get through to loved ones.

I think they want to humble and publicly humiliate Dr. Durand and make him pay for this statement, by any means possible and Dolan is just the one to come up with the methods.

Every time I see that, I picture the mother going "she's alive, alive, alive" and the doc saying "no, I'm sorry, she's dead, dead, dead" Having watched this play out, I can imagine myself becoming that frustrated with this mother and blunting it to her just like that. jmo
 
  • #645
  • #646
How much would the family's insurance be liable for after Jahi was declared brain dead and who is obligated to pay the bill?
 
  • #647
On May 28, 2010 at @11pm in Ponchatoula, LA, my father had a minor car accident and was awake, alert and oriented at the scene, walking around. He was taken to the local hospital where they did a CT of his head, because he was on Coumadin for atrial fib (controlled). They did a CT of his back because he was complaining of back pain and found a fracture of L2. They medicated him for pain and he drifted off to sleep. The hospital had arranged a transfer to Ochsner in New Orleans where his L2 fracture could be treated.

At @2:00 am, prior to transfer, my father became decorticate and unresponsive. He was intubated. Another CT was done and it showed he had a major bleed into his brain. They airlifted him to Ochsner where he was admitted to the ICU. Repeat CTscans were done that confirmed a major brain bleed. I was called at 6am regarding my father's condition and what had transpired to that point. My step mother was with him and as I was the medical power of Attorney, the decisions for medical care were up to me.

I flew to New Orleans with my husband and met up with my brother who flew in from Phoenix. We went directly to the ICU at Ochsner and to my father's room. I went to my knees and could not breathe. I have seen many people on vents and in the ICU, but I was a daughter and not a nurse at this point. The intensivist physician explained everything and showed my husband and me the CT scans. I knew from looking at then and the huge bleed into his brain that my father would never recover and there was nothing we could do to save him.

My father was not brain dead like Jahi. However, he had suffered enough damage that he would never be awake, never move, would require the vent and other life sustaining medications. My husband explained everything to my brother and my brother agreed that Daddy would never want to "exist" like this. I told the intensivist to disconnect the endotracheal tube, the meds, everything. I told the intensivist I wanted him to have lots and lots of morphine, which would aid in any discomfort he might have felt struggling to breathe. He was given aerosolized oxygen for comfort as well. My father died 5 hours later.

Was the decision easy to take him off life support? Yes from a medical standpoint. Was it an easy decision as a daughter? Yes and No. I wanted my father to be alive. I wanted my father to still be my source of wisdom and comfort. I still wanted to talk about life in general and politics and all the things we talked about on the phone. However, the reality was that my father was gone.

I understand where Jahi's mother is in her decision to end life support. However, there are no miracles to be had. Jahi is gone and all that remains is her body. Being in the ICU where it is filled with sounds of machines, alarms etc is not peaceful. Jahi deserves peace. I pray that Jahi's mom will come to the realization that her beloved daughter is gone and any further measures to continue her life are basically futile. No doctor, lawyer or judge can bring her back to life.

It is time to let go, let God. Mourning her loss should have started 3 weeks ago. Prolonging the inevitable is just going to be that much more painful for those that care about her. Her siblings and classmates, friends and family. It is time. I pray it does not come down to the judge dictating the foreseen outcome. Jahi's mom needs to make the decision. I pray she does today. JMV, IMO, JMO. God rest her soul.
 
  • #648
ok.. I think they are harping on the "Shes dead, dead, dead" thing for effect.

Imagine the scenario.
A doctor (s) inform this (likely) very overbearing family that the child has passed, they are sorry, they did all they could do.
The family FREAKS out and all hell breaks loose.
The mother is throwing herself on to the child (It happens) and is insisting they 'bring her baby back'.
The whole family is in the room, it is out of control. They are not listening because they are demanding the child be brought back.

The doctor finally says what they are saying.

I can see a family in deep denial, I can see the grief, I understand to a point.
But, I can also see a medical professional get fed up.
 
  • #649
I hope that a Judge puts an end to this soon. The family is not going to be satisfied until Jahi wakes up, starts talking, gets out of bed, and asks to go to her favorite ice cream parlor. We know that isn't going to happen. :moo:

That's it. When I listen to mom crying and being adamant about her being alive she sees everything going back to normal if she has enough time on the vent and starts being fed again. And why can't everyone GET this?
 
  • #650
I find it interesting that no surgeons have come forth to do the procedures. Even those that believe in circulatory death and not brain death.

Why do you think that is? The right to life community would embrace the surgeon as a hero to the little person that is fighting big medicine.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the very few doctors who don't believe in brain death are not surgeons. IMO.

So, the few docs that are "out there" and don't believe in brain death, are not qualified to do tracheostomies and gastrostomy tubes.

Not just "any" doctor can do these procedures they are asking for. It has to be a qualified, licensed, credentialed surgeon, -- general surgeon and/ or ENT (ENT doesn't place PEG tubes-- nearly always done by general surgery). And someone from anesthesia-- CRNA or Anesthesiologist. And at least one scrub tech to assist.

And speaking only for myself, if I worked in a place that had anesthesiologists, then they would need to do this case. Because of all the controversy, I doubt a CRNA would want to be involved. Let the docs who make the really big bucks do this one, IMO.
 
  • #651
Good morning dear friends. Wished we were NOT all here still...
 
  • #652
THIS

The one line the family has mentioned over and over and over again is supposedly Dr. David Durand, Chief of Pediatrics at CHO saying [she is "dead, dead, dead"]. As if he was jumping up and down screaming it.

I do not know if that is true, but this family would really try the patience of Job and some times plain speaking is needed in to get through to loved ones.

I think they want to humble and publicly humiliate Dr. Durand and make him pay for this statement, by any means possible and Dolan is just the one to come up with the methods.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eteriorated-moments-woke-routine-surgery.html

She said that the way the hospital has treated her daughter and the family has been 'disgusting'.

'The way the hospital has behaved towards me is outrageous. It is disrespectful. It is disgusting.

'They don’t even refer to her by name. They refer to her as the deceased, or the body, or the dead and my daughter is not dead.

'They are awful, they have no compassion.'

Perhaps they don't want to go along with the delusions.

'But I still have hope. In fact I have more than hope. I am positive my daughter is going to wake up. I don’t have a doubt. I talk to her about it all the time.'

This is certainly about more than just refusing to accept the definition of brain death as a definition of death for religious reasons - one could do that but still accept the reality that brain dead people don't just wake up and be themselves again.
 
  • #653
ok.. I think they are harping on the "Shes dead, dead, dead" thing for effect.

Imagine the scenario.
A doctor (s) inform this (likely) very overbearing family that the child has passed, they are sorry, they did all they could do.
The family FREAKS out and all hell breaks loose.
The mother is throwing herself on to the child (It happens) and is insisting they 'bring her baby back'.
The whole family is in the room, it is out of control. They are not listening because they are demanding the child be brought back.

The doctor finally says what they are saying.

I can see a family in deep denial, I can see the grief, I understand to a point.
But, I can also see a medical professional get fed up.

I agree, except I don't think that conversation occurred at the bedside in ICU. I think it happened in a conference room. I really hope there were other docs or social workers there in attendance, as witnesses to whatever happened between the family and Durand.
 
  • #654
I think they are just buying time legally forcing CHO to keep her indefinitely until she "wakes up" or they find another place.

This is what they want. It takes no effort on their part to actually made decisions or provide care for her. They get to be in the public spotlight with their fundraising for some unknown facility to take her in the future. They get immediate access to the local media.

This is all they want.

No responsibility.

Funds at their disposal without the formalities of having to create a foundation or 501-c or resport to the IRS.

They can stay at home and continue their other daily activities.

Plenty of media exposure with boatloads of sympathy and approval.

No worries about actually having to pay for this.

Meanwhile, nurses and physicians at CHO have to go about their daily care of Jahi, have to continued their documentation, their bathing, bowel and urine hygiene. And it is a difficult task to care for a brain dead child, just as for a terminally ill child. These medical professionals have families, they are sad and probably really ethically challenged in perpetuating the care for the body of a child who will never ever come back, and, instead, is clearly deteriorating in their eyes. Especially as the family seems to express unrealistic beliefs she will be back to normal. This must be really painful for these people.

She occupies a hospital bed intended for a living sick child.
 
  • #655
43,847 raised by 1,256 people in 7 days

They better raise more money than the richest man in the U>S> has if they want to pull of this perpetual care they are striving for. The money needed imo is astronomical. And in the end final expense will be the funeral. So sad.
 
  • #656
Every time I see that, I picture the mother going "she's alive, alive, alive" and the doc saying "no, I'm sorry, she's dead, dead, dead" Having watched this play out, I can imagine myself becoming that frustrated with this mother and blunting it to her just like that. jmo

FWIW. Since we don't know exactly how this played out or if it's even true, I thought that it might have happened like this:

With documents from several physicians in hand confirming that Jahi is brain-dead, Dr. Durand flips through the papers while saying "dead" as he displays each one. This negates the rapid-fire "dead, dead, dead" scenario and makes it more palatable that Durand was using the medical documents to show Jahi's mother/family that it wasn't him alone who said that Jahi is brain-dead but that several physicians concurred. :moo:
 
  • #657
I am thinking that previous articles saying this was a "Settlement" conference were incorrect. This sounds more like it. Mediation.

Jahi McMath family, Oakland hospital to enter mediation

A federal magistrate is scheduled to mediate talks Friday between the family of 13-year-old Jahi McMath and the Oakland hospital where the brain-dead girl continues to be kept on a ventilator per a court order.

Each side is slated to present its case to the magistrate during the session. Children's Hospital Oakland argues that Jahi is legally dead and opposes performing medical procedures on a "deceased person." Jahi's family insists that she is still alive, and wants her transferred to a long-term care facility despite a consensus among neurologists that she is dead.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...iation-20140103,0,5708149.story#ixzz2pLxJroKw

At this point, I would hope the judge would ask for verification that a certified, long-term care facility (NB) is willing to take her.

IMHO, aside from the religious issue concerning the definition of death, the mother claims, this is the other main issue. There isn't one and there won't be.
 
  • #658
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the very few doctors who don't believe in brain death are not surgeons. IMO.

Not just "any" doctor can do these procedures they are asking for. It has to be a qualified, licensed, credentialed surgeon, -- general surgeon and/ or ENT (ENT doesn't place PEG tubes-- nearly always done by general surgery). And someone from anesthesia-- CRNA or Anesthesiologist. And at least one scrub tech to assist.

.

Totally agree with your comment that there are very very few surgeons that don't belive in brain death.

Tracheostomy: General surgeon and/ or ENT
PEG tube: General surgeon or gastroenterologist
Still need an anesthesiologist.

Just ain't gonna happen. None of these people is going to risk their career and license over this.
 
  • #659
Maybe BUT he was also the one to cancel the fundraiser/rally last week per the uncle.

IIRC the fundraiser that was being done by the Preacher and church was canceled at the request of the lawyer because the facility and travel had not been guarenteed at that time.
 
  • #660
How much would the family's insurance be liable for after Jahi was declared brain dead and who is obligated to pay the bill?

The insurance will deny any charges made after she is declared brain dead in the chart.

So, the insurance will not pay charges made for her care after Dec 12.

Normally, the hospital would then send the bill to the responsible parent(s).
They legally could proceed with routine collection methods to recover their charges.

Most likely CHO is not going to bill the family, but will have to absorb the cost of care without compensation.
 
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