Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #6

[Herat]

I've never seen a professional license with these notations.. I really do think he did come out of retirement to take care of the end of life needs on a voluntary basis.

Whatever we think about the family's decision to keep life support going, this man is, IMO, very compassionate. It appears that he has NO monetary stake in the eventual outcome due to the notation of " Voluntary Service", and probably little to no professional liability either, which is great.

This is a WIN/ WIN situation for CHO and our concerns for the potentially stressed PICU nurses there. This man pretty much rescued them, y'all. I think it's extremely compassionate for the McMath family as well. JMO. :truce:

Yes, some "unusual" aspects to his current license status. And this is only California. This wouldn't fly in New York, or any other state. State licensing boards can be beasts about casual or "emergency" licensing.

I doubt he would be considered competent to place a gastrostomy tube. An NG tube, maybe, but not so easy with an ET tube and without an xray.

Yeah. No professional liability.

I also think this is a win for CHO.

 

[Donjeta]

"In brain death not only is consciousness lost, but all regulation of the body by the brain is lost, and that's the last true totally dependent organ in the body that can't be replaced by medical therapy," said St.Vincent Healthcare neurologist Jeffrey Mosser.

It's a polarizing debate, is brain death the same as cardiac death?

"In most states and most countries brain death is considered the equivalent of cardiac death because once the brain is completely and irreversibly damaged, there's never been recovery to any kind of meaningful life," said Mosser.

http://www.kpax.com/news/billings-neurologist-discusses-brain-death/

Yet no one can really blame her relatives for clinging to hope for a miraculous resurrection. As anyone who has faced an excruciating decision for a loved one on life support knows, it's tough enough to accept the inevitable at the impending end of a long and fulfilled life. Acceptance of the loss of an adolescent who just weeks ago was a bundle of energy and possibility is simply unimaginable.

Jahi's family members deserve our utmost empathy, even as they are being ill-served by those who are facilitating their delusion at great financial and emotional expense. The medical staff at Children's merits a measure of sympathy for being caught between the science and ethics they practice and a faith that trumps all professional judgment.

http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/editorials/article/Definitions-of-life-and-death-5122394.php

Lawyer Matt O'Conner says Missouri law defines death along the same lines as the California law regulating Jahi's care.

"If you have brain death, number one, and then you have someone who is dependent on a respirator, then that would be considered legally dead," said O'Conner. "So the question becomes, what if the family provides that for them? And that's where you get beyond the legal implications of it."

The law provides a definition of death and instructions about a hospital's duty to provide care to a living person. The law remains silent, he says, on the question of a parent's right to continue to provide care after that point.

As an ethical matter, cost comes into the question, a burden on others. Jahi's family, however, has so far raised more than $50,000 by way of a fundraising website.

"When should government or the courts tell parents they can give up hope?" O'Conner asked. "If the parents can afford to and provide for care for that child, shouldn't they be allowed to?"

They are allowed to the extent that the law does not prohibit that. But O'Conner would like to see the law amended to specifically allow for it.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/24390514/legal-questions-abound-in-cases-involving-end-of-life-decisions

One of my mentors shared with me long ago that an ethical dilemma occurs when values conflict. What are the values in conflict in this case? Jahi has been declared legally and medically deceased. No life remains, based on the expert medical opinions of four pediatric neurologists, three of whom were the parents’ choosing. The life that exists is by mechanical means.

Herein lies the conflict: The medical experts have unanimously declared this patient as dead and therefore are ready to cease life support. The family states though their child cannot communicate, she still lives (her heart is beating), and they are determined to maintain her on life support.

http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20140108/LIVING/301080022

Man Who Awakened from Coma After Two Years Offers Hope to Jahi McMath’s Family
"They said I was a vegetable and 80 percent of my brain was dead," says Randall Hall, who suffered a traumatic brain injury in 2000 and lapsed into a persistent vegetative state for two years.

http://crossmap.christianpost.com/n...years-offers-hope-to-jahi-mcmaths-family-8327

It sounds truly miraculous but he was in a coma, not brain dead.

The author of this article has spared no pains in trying to stay as clueless as he could:

If McMath is a corpse, she is a surprisingly active one. Her heart is still beating, something readers will learn from even some of the same stories saying she is dead. And how does this corpse manage to digest food or breathe?

By any common sense measure, “brain death” is not death. It was a baldly ideological definition of death concocted in the 1960s to make everyone feel better about plucking the organs of still-living persons and pulling the plug on inconvenient patients.

http://spectator.org/articles/57364/politics-language

He must have worked really hard to actively avoid seeing, hearing, reading and understanding ANY of the news items that have been published in the last month not to know that the heart of this case is that Jahi McMath does not breathe and hasn't been digesting any food, and her mother wanted machines and surgery to accomplish that.

 

[jjenny]

I've been trying to follow along but these threads are moving so fast, and I don't get too much time online to catch up. I'm not sure if this question has been asked and or answered already, so please forgive me for reiterating if it has...

The consensus seems to be that although Jahi's heart is still beating and she is being provided oxygen from the vent, her body is starting to deteriorate rapidly. Would this not also be happening to the pregnant woman in Texas? If so, how is it possible that her body would not become too toxic to maintain the fetus until viability?

I don't understand how Jahi can be decomposing, yet the pg woman can be maintained until the fetus can be delivered?

And how, the woman in Texas is being referred to as being "kept alive" yet Jahi is being referred to as "dead".

Jahi isn't decomposing. She is deteriortating. Which happens to brain dead bodies on life support.
The same is happeing with the body of a brain dead pregnant woman. It's deteriorating.
It's hard to keep a brain dead body "alive." The record for a brain dead pregnant woman is 107 days.
Which would be enough for the fetus to reach the viable stage. Assuming the body of a pregnant woman lasts that long, there is a chance fetus might make it.

 

[Herat]

Hmmmm....I wonder if he still has prescriptive authority?

Can we check with DEA or California Board of Pharmacy?

 

[lisser]

I understand the difference of why they are keeping the pregnant woman on life support and wanted to remove Jahi, that it is because of the fetus, what I don't get is how the woman isn't deteriorating and Jahi is. If the hospital in Texas can keep the woman in a state of being "alive" and not decomposing, I can understand the upset of Jahi's family that CHO didn't/wouldn't/couldn't do the same for Jahi. It's the terming of one as alive and the other as dead, even though (fetus aside) they are both in the same physical state that I don't understand.

I do know that neither will recover, and that it's just a matter of time for both before neither have a beating heart any longer.

 

[lisser]

Wanted to add, I thought I'd read several times where Jahi was referred to as decomposing.

 

[seattlechiquita]

Hey, did y'all read through the declaration of Dr. Paul Byrne attached to the legal papers prepared by Angela Counts describing their care team? He stated under oath that he has seen patients recover from brain dead and go on to recover to various extents, including one who finished school and got married.

He is literally claiming resurrection from brain death! That man is cuckoo in his cocoa puffs! (IMO)

I just finished reading it. W.T.F. this guy. :facepalm:

 

[Donjeta]

I understand the difference of why they are keeping the pregnant woman on life support and wanted to remove Jahi, that it is because of the fetus, what I don't get is how the woman isn't deteriorating and Jahi is. If the hospital in Texas can keep the woman in a state of being "alive" and not decomposing, I can understand the upset of Jahi's family that CHO didn't/wouldn't/couldn't do the same for Jahi. It's the terming of one as alive and the other as dead, even though (fetus aside) they are both in the same physical state that I don't understand.

I do know that neither will recover, and that it's just a matter of time for both before neither have a beating heart any longer.

Do we know that the pregnant woman is not deteriorating? I've no doubt that the doctors trying to keep the fetus alive have to extend a lot of effort to keep the mother's bodily functions as stable as they can.

 

[jjenny]

I understand the difference of why they are keeping the pregnant woman on life support and wanted to remove Jahi, that it is because of the fetus, what I don't get is how the woman isn't deteriorating and Jahi is. If the hospital in Texas can keep the woman in a state of being "alive" and not decomposing, I can understand the upset of Jahi's family that CHO didn't/wouldn't/couldn't do the same for Jahi. It's the terming of one as alive and the other as dead, even though (fetus aside) they are both in the same physical state that I don't understand.

I do know that neither will recover, and that it's just a matter of time for both before neither have a beating heart any longer.

Both are deteriorating. Woman in TX is deteriorating. Which is why the baby will have to be most likely taken out while it's still premature. Because woman's body will not last long enough for fetus to become mature.
I don't know what else to say on the subject, excpet it's not possible to keep a brain dead body on life support forever.

 

[jjenny]

Do we know that the pregnant woman is not deteriorating? I've no doubt that the doctors trying to keep the fetus alive have to extend a lot of effort to keep the mother's bodily functions as stable as they can.

Of course its deteriorating. The record for brain dead pregnant woman on life support is 107 days. It's not even possible to keep the bodies to full term pregnancy if the woman was in an early stage of pregnancy, which is why the babies born to these women are usually premature.

 

[MissJ]

With all the misinformation thrown out there I'm glad I'm no longer working as an RN. While I loved my job and being an RN I could not handle any more of people being so negative about health care givers. They work long hard hours, enforced double shifts, give up holidays and family time to help people. I started out in Pulmonary Intensive care and had one or two patients at a time, usually on vents. It was emotionally draining but I loved my patient's and NEVER ignored their needs. You may not have seen me by the bedside every minute but I was always advocating for my patients. I'm especially upset the way these nurses are portrayed as if they ignored Jahi's bleeding. I can assure you that never happened. Its not like they could do bedside surgery. I can assure you they did whatever they could. I have never seen an incompetent nurse in any ICU and I worked many of them. But ICU takes its toll on your heart and I transferred out to Psychiatry. Then I was beaten by a patient and am unable to work as an RN at all. You have to love helping others or you can't do this most difficult job because it takes all your time and energy. These CHO staff deserve a medal not criticism. JMO

 

[krimekat]

Does California have a peer review required for malpractice cases? We have that in Louisiana and if the doctor's peers don't agree that malpractice is a factor, the law suit cannot be filed.

Medical Liability/Medical Malpractice Laws


it appears so

 

[Herat]

What does this mean?



The family has not authorized the release of her medical records so how could there possibly be transparency? Accountability may come later, I understand that Jahi's death is being investigated, and things may come out at the court when it's time.
JMO.

Dolan and his personal injury cohorts want to overturn the medical malpractice cap by using every possibly slander, deceptive, and sensationalistic wording about CHO in conjunction with the McMath case.

By any means possible.

Fact, HIPPA laws, current California laws, verified medical professional opinions, and the truth be dammed.

Throwing stuff against a wall to see what sticks.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Jane Velez-Mitchell transcript January 7, 2014

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/07/ijvm.01.html

 

[MissJ]

JMO but I'm appalled that so many reporters don't seem to rely on facts. There is an immense difference in coma, vegetative state and brain death.

 

[Herat]

Jane Velez-Mitchell transcript January 7, 2014

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/07/ijvm.01.html

Ugh. Once again, two people discuss their family members who recovered from comatose behavior. Only one admits that there family member was not declared brain dead. One is "locked out" syndrome, but it's unclear why this person was allowed to discuss this in relationship to the McMath case.

And JVM used "routine tonsillectomy" Gah.

At least one physician tries to discuss true brain death, but the other two guests get it all muddled up.

 

[Donjeta]

http://www.news9.com/story/24389214...cult-life-support-struggle-in-california-case

Jahi's family is hoping for a miracle, much like the one Jill Finley experienced back in 2007. The Edmond woman woke up just hours after her family removed her from life support.

Finley doesn't have a strong an opinion on if Jahi should remain on life-support or not, but she is very strong in her belief of who will ultimately decide if the little girl lives or dies. And he's not on this earth.

Finley also firmly believes, in the end, the decision Jahi's family is likely struggling with isn't theirs.

"My faith is like leave it in God's hands, but is that leave her on or take her off."

She makes a good point but I don't think she was ever brain dead either.

From 2007: she was kept hypothermic and there is nothing in this article that indicates she was ever diagnosed brain dead, they just talk about coma and state her prognosis of living a normal life was 2% which sounds excessively optimistic for a brain dead person.

He called 911 and continued to work on his lifeless wife until paramedics arrived and shocked her heart back to life. They rushed her to the Oklahoma Heart Hospital, where the medical staff put her on a respirator and dressed her in a special suit that lowered her body temperature to attempt to minimize damage to her brain caused by lack of oxygen.
She was alive in that she was breathing and her heart was beating, but she was in a deep coma.

http://www.today.com/id/20689992/

 

[jjenny]

Media just uses brain dead, in a coma, in PVS like it's the same thing.
Jill Finley from the description of it was in a coma, not brain dead. I don't think any doctor would say that a brain dead patient has 1-2% chance of living a normal life. Brain dead patient is dead. Brain dead patient's brain turns into soup like substance. You can't live with a soup in your head.

 

[nursebeeme]

Media just uses brain dead, in a coma, in PVS like it's the same thing.
Jill Finley from the description of it was in a coma, not brain dead. I don't think any doctor would say that a brain dead patient has 1-2% chance of living a normal life. Brain dead patient is dead.

Exactly!!! Not too mention she was hypothermic which increases chances of a better outcome

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

With all the misinformation thrown out there I'm glad I'm no longer working as an RN. While I loved my job and being an RN I could not handle any more of people being so negative about health care givers. They work long hard hours, enforced double shifts, give up holidays and family time to help people. I started out in Pulmonary Intensive care and had one or two patients at a time, usually on vents. It was emotionally draining but I loved my patient's and NEVER ignored their needs. You may not have seen me by the bedside every minute but I was always advocating for my patients. I'm especially upset the way these nurses are portrayed as if they ignored Jahi's bleeding. I can assure you that never happened. Its not like they could do bedside surgery. I can assure you they did whatever they could. I have never seen an incompetent nurse in any ICU and I worked many of them. But ICU takes its toll on your heart and I transferred out to Psychiatry. Then I was beaten by a patient and am unable to work as an RN at all. You have to love helping others or you can't do this most difficult job because it takes all your time and energy. These CHO staff deserve a medal not criticism. JMO

I am certainly saying THANK YOU, to you and to all nurses! I've been hospitalized and have been at many hospital bedsides in situations when the patients made it through and ones that did not. In ALL cases, the nurses were hard-working and unfailingly kind, thoughtful, and caring. Kudos to nurses EVERYWHERE!