Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #6

[otto]

I'd be willing to bet, the mom sees this change in her hands and anywhere else on her body and contributes it to loosing weight from not "being fed".

After listening to Dr. Byrne he would also most likely say that's the cause.

Her hand looks much older.

Could it be due to ATN?

I hadn't thought of that ... that wrinkled hands on a 13 year old might be perceived as weight loss. With grandmother being a vocational nurse, wouldn't she have told her daughter that people don't loose weight on their fingers ... bone thin fingers in Hansel and Gretal with sagging skin? That doesn't sound right. Isn't that muscle tissue disintegration?

Is anyone being straight with the mother?

 

[Donjeta]

What I don't understand is WHY they are insisting on enteral (gut) feedings?

They have IV access-- and most likely central access. Why not pursue "nutrients" via the intravenous route?

Is it just that it is more emotionally satisfying to them to see a bag of tube feed, versus a bag of TPN? Like a baby bottle of infant formula?

I am just really puzzled at this ongoing fixation on enteral nutrition and tube feeding.

Did they not read Dr. Fiori's report? No bowel sounds for weeks. Sloughing intestine. It's not like all of a sudden peristalsis will return, and absorption will be effective. This is kind of like magical thinking, IMO. (Well, not "kind of"-- it is magical thinking. IMO.)

Or, I guess I could go back to trying to look at this as a personal/ family death ritual.

I guess we all know that the tube feeds will not go well. IMO, it's just adding more misery to what they already have to deal with, with the state of her body. But I guess on some level it must bring some comfort to NW. I'm trying to be okay with that, but I'm really not okay with it at all.

And again-- we would never have known about the g-tube placement and feeds, if they weren't so concerned with their "privacy" that they had to blast it out in tweets and instagram. About an hour after they said they wanted privacy.

I guess they define privacy "differently" than I do. Very differently.

JMO
I think it's partly because NW feels guilty and unmotherly if Jahi is not being fed and partly because they consider it winning over CHO. They're thumbing their noses, figuratively. See, we got her those tubes without you and she's doing great, nyah nyah.

 

[otto]

<snipped for emphasis>
Death used to mean when the heart stopped beating because it was what invariably happened before we had the capacity to plug people into machines and keep things going after parts of them died. Before the advent of the modern brain scanning and modern emergency medicine nobody was ever even diagnosed brain dead because there were none. Once the brain died, the heart died too. The only way to ascertain that anyone had experienced an irreversible cessation of brain function and had no brain perfusion was to see that yup, he's not breathing, his heart stopped, he's dead.

People are free to believe in prayers and miracles but an expectation of a miracle is not a medical indication to continue treatment of a deceased person. It is a religious thing, so perhaps there are churches who'd like to step up and provide this for the people believing that a miracle will happen, but it is not a job for the hospitals.

This quote from a Catholic theology site sums it up imo.

http://catholicmoraltheology.com/what-are-we-learning-from-the-jahi-mcmath-case/

"Of course, God can work a miracle. But prudential medical decisions cannot be made based merely on the hope that God might choose to act miraculously."

God chooses to resurrect brain dead people very infrequently and there is no brain scan or a lab test that would let hospitals know that He is going to raise Jahi McMath from the death with any larger probability than any other brain dead person.

JMO.

Is it reasonable to believe that a random child will suddenly perform Jesus-like miracles, and return from the dead? No. Other than bedtime stories about Jesus, I have never heard of a miracle. Are they so infrequent that they could only perhaps happen to a brain-dead child?

 

[Donjeta]

I agree..however for weeks they stonewalled and only fed certain info to media...WHY didnt they just allow the family to move her..instead it took court hearings after court hearing..and "Self Serving" statements by them has mislead those out there willing to believe Jahi was rotting..That is just NOT right IMO:seeya:

I don't think the family had a place ready to take her to during most of those court hearings. They said they were searching and many places eventually said no. I'm sure CHO couldn't be happier to see the circus go after they made sure the transfer was legally acceptable to the court and the coroner.

 

[otto]

JMO
I think it's partly because NW feels guilty and unmotherly if Jahi is not being fed and partly because they consider it winning over CHO. They're thumbing their noses, figuratively. See, we got her those tubes without you and she's doing great, nyah nyah.

Thank you for researching this topic so extensively! The links/quotes are much appreciated. This child was severely overweight at the time of surgery and from photos, the step-father also appears overweight. Have we seen the father? We've heard about popsicles and burgers (rumor) in ICU, making it seem like food was perhaps a reward or somehow a factor in the relationships between the mother and daughter as well as mother and new husband. I have to wonder if the entire family was overweight, or only these two family members.

The deceased child is not doing well, no matter what is stated by the lawyer, or those under poor legal influence. Clearly money has been discussed between the uncle and the lawyer. We know that from the RAW footage. It's "chump change" $250,000 if she died in the hospital, but it could be $30,000,000 if she lives and needs supportive living costs ... like the other family that received $4.2 million for the child that suffered brain damage after surgery. That child is still alive, but this child is not ... but the lawyer seems to have the simple objective of raising the compensation from 1/4 million to 1/2 million, and the only reason for that can be to collect his 30% from a larger pot. The uncle seems misguided in believing that prolonging the death will increase the award.

Is the grandmother unable to explain this to the mom, or is the grandmother (LVN) unable to understand this? Where is it all going wrong. My gut feeling tells me that the mom gets it, but for whatever reason she's unable to let go. What would make her hang on when she must know better ... is she being preyed upon by others that have ulterior motives, or cannot she (maternal instinct) see that her child has died?



(image from RAW video)

 

[Donjeta]

If thats truly how you feel..Then as a human being how does anyone assimilate treating a brain dead child like a DEAD animal..Surely humans treat other humans better..with respect and dignity..treating family with respect and dignity..allowing grievings and ability to deal with all that...BUT obviously since Brain death was declared back Dec 12th.....how come it wasnt until Dec. 23rd did the family finally reachoutside of that facility? Could it be they felt lied to..COuld it be they felt they were responsable..COuld it be they felt disenfranchised??/ Then after almost 2 weeks..reach out..and WAM BAM..For some folks They are on some sort of "Cashing in of their daughters situations" I find it a rather awkward ..This is not the first Child death post surgery...Medical malparactice often gets hidden..and further..What the family said couldnt have been contrived..as HOW would they know what to say..They are uneducated in such stuff....BUT certain descriptions raised a whole lot of flags for me....

Im of the thought..Give Jahi Dignity..and her Family the same...Jahi went in there for Surgery..and within a day SHE's Brain Dead....Parents at fault??? Does anyone blame the parents for Jahi's circumstances Dec 10th onward???

I guess..AS a HC giver and understand death and dyings ( ALL kinds) and I am NOT just buying CHO's suggestions/deflections..And nowwhere..was any blood flow assessments done on Jahi''s brain ( Carotid/Juglular Veins)..Nadda...:banghead:

BBM . The first family interviews in the media were on December 15th or thereabouts, a couple of days after Jahi was declared brain dead and when they hadn't yet engaged the lawyer.

 

[otto]

I don't think the family had a place ready to take her to during most of those court hearings. They said they were searching and many places eventually said no. I'm sure CHO couldn't be happier to see the circus go after they made sure the transfer was legally acceptable to the court and the coroner.

There will be an autopsy, so whatever is being done with the body while it is with the family will be documented when the body is returned to the morgue. Hopefully, whatever has been done was done under the care of a compassionate medical doctor trained in inserting feeding tubes into the stomach of a deceased person. Can you imagine! There has not been a bowel movement for a month and the lining of the bowel sloughed off on January 2. Poking into the stomach must have been extraordinary. What sort of people would do that? Were they wearing masks at the time?

 

[Ravynne]

The uncle was on vacation at the time of the surgery and most likely did not attend any appointments related to the surgery. The deceased had uncontrolled urination. Is it really possible that a doctor would tell a patient that a tonsillectomy would cure uncontrolled urination? Does that sound like something a doctor would say? My experience is that doctors do not predict the outcome of surgery.

ITA... My doctors didn't predict a cure for PMS or my endometriosis when I had a hysterectomy. My dentist didn't predict that miraculous cure for my debilitating migraines when I had that molar removed that was perforating my sinus cavity. Holy moly. :facepalm:

 

[kincaid]

ITA... My doctors didn't predict a cure for PMS or my endometriosis when I had a hysterectomy. My dentist didn't predict that miraculous cure for my debilitating migraines when I had that molar removed that was perforating my sinus cavity. Holy moly. :facepalm:

Sleep apnea can cause kids (and adults) to wet the bed. If nocturnal enuresis is what they mean by uncontrolled urination, then perhaps they thought fixing the sleep apnea would cure it.

It's just really sad for any 13 year old girl, alive or dead, to have her family on tv talking about her 'uncontrolled urination'.

 

[kincaid]

I was doing a little research online about children with sleep apnea. I have it as an adult, and the doctor never suggested surgery, it's just been CPAP, weight loss, exercise, special pillow, etc. I guess with kids, they do surgery first. I found this on Aetna's site. Thought it was interesting.

Treatment of OSAS in children depends on the severity of symptoms and the underlying anatomic and physiologic abnormalities. Childhood OSAS is usually associated with adenotonsillar hypertrophy, and the available medical literature suggests that the majority of cases (75 % to 100 %) will benefit from adenotonsillectomy (the role of adenoidectomy alone is unclear). Other causes of pediatric OSAS include obesity, craniofacial anomalies, and neuromuscular disorders. Obese children may have less satisfactory results with adenotonsillectomy, but it is generally considered the first-line therapy for these patients as well. If the patient is not a candidate for adenotonsillectomy, other treatment options include weight loss (if patient is obese) and continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP). Nocturnal masks for CPAP or procedures for mask respiration are effective in children, but are only used in exceptional cases, such as when adenotonsillectomy is delayed, contraindicated, or when symptoms of OSAS remain after surgery. Severely affected children may require uvulopalatopharyngoplasty (UPPP) or tracheostomy to relieve their obstruction; however, neither have been well studied in children and is rarely indicated. The success of pharmacological treatment of OSAS in children has not been evaluated in controlled clinical trials (Erler and Paditz, 2004).

http://www.aetna.com/cpb/medical/data/700_799/0752.html

 

[Sonya610]

If thats truly how you feel..Then as a human being how does anyone assimilate treating a brain dead child like a DEAD animal..

Dead animal? First off, humans ARE animals. Secondly many of us show a great deal of respect for our living AND dead companion animals so I do not understand the reference at all.

 

[Sonya610]

But still, why no nail polish in OR then, 24 - 30 yrs ago?

And is nail polish acceptable now on OR patients?

Thx in adv for any response. :seeya:

I have always worn nail polish even decades ago when undergoing general anesthesia, they may not prefer it but they dealt with it.

I believe the reason it was frowned on is because they could see a color change in the fingernails if the oxygen level was too low. Same reason they don't want people wearing makeup in the OR, if you start turning blue they want it to be easy to notice. Now days I know they can measure oxygen levels with the little things they stick on your finger so I am thinking the nail polish thing isn't such a big deal anymore?

 

[Softail]

Christopher Dolan @cbdlaw
Doctors are optimistic that her condition has stabilized and that her health is improving from when she was taken from CHO.


I'm not sure which is scarier, the fact that these "doctors" and others believe a dead person is "improving", or that these same people are allowed to vote. :waitasec:

:dunno:

 

[dh109977]

I remember a surgeon telling a patient she would not be allowed to wear nail polish in OR, and that even the nail polish was 'clear' the OR team would remove it before surgery began.

The reason given? OR personnel needed to be able to view the nailbeds. For what, IDK.

Seeing Jahi's pix w. diff colors of polish made me wonder about that.

Anyone have an idea about the accuracy of the stmt---
--- back then, many (30?) years ago. True then?
--- but not now?

Thx in adv.

When I went in for surgery a few months back I couldn't have nail polish, makeup, jewelry, deoderant, nothing at all.

 

[rob]

JMO
I think it's partly because NW feels guilty and unmotherly if Jahi is not being fed and partly because they consider it winning over CHO. They're thumbing their noses, figuratively. See, we got her those tubes without you and she's doing great, nyah nyah.

I'm thinking this Mom may see feeding her children, as her way of loving them. She seems obsessed with feeding her. She is proud that her daughter is 'thick', she tells the story about Jahi going for ice cream, someone gave her a popsickle after surgery (don't know if that was approved by the dr).
Are her other children heavy?

 

[MaybeNotToday]

I'm sorry, sweetie, I quoted it twice. It is a disturbing picture to me, too. If I can figure out a way to edit, I will, or maybe a wonderful mod can do it much faster/easier than I can.

No, it's ok. It really is me being too sensitive. Funny, I can read about it all day long but then a picture just totally freaks and depresses me.

Otto was asking about the natural mother instinct knowing when her child was truly deceased. I honestly don't know why her mother can't see the signs. My daughter had a febrile seizure in my arms and I remember thinking she was already gone! I was screaming into the sky and didn't notice her come to. Maybe my instincts are on overdrive and Jahi's mother's on underdrive (is that a word?)

 

[popsicle]

I was doing a little research online about children with sleep apnea. I have it as an adult, and the doctor never suggested surgery, it's just been CPAP, weight loss, exercise, special pillow, etc. I guess with kids, they do surgery first. I found this on Aetna's site. Thought it was interesting.

http://www.aetna.com/cpb/medical/data/700_799/0752.html

good info ty

I feel incredible sadness that Jahi lost her life at the young age of 13. She had the most warming, room lighting smile and much good to add to this world. It is tragic that she suffered from anything at all. How embarrassing it must have been for this sweet child to have those medical issues. jmo RIP Jahi McMath

 

[Sonya610]

When I went in for surgery a few months back I couldn't have nail polish, makeup, jewelry, deoderant, nothing at all.

What about magic marker all over the incision site? The one time I had major surgery I wrote out instructions all over my stomach regarding the removal of organs and the conditions allowing removal and such (female surgery, the consent form spelled it all out but better safe than sorry).

If the staff complained I didn't hear about it, they have to scrub the surgical site anyway (I am sure it gave them something to laugh about regarding how controlling some patients are).

FYI the whole thing about "feeding" Jahi's body is unsettling. Her intestines have supposedly not worked for weeks now and are reportedly being "sloughed away". Pumping liquid milkshakes into the system seems like it would only INCREASE the rate of deterioration and create one awful mess when the food "exits" the body.

In a corpse the abdomen fills with gasses and becomes bloated which is why morticians suction out the contents when preparing them for an open casket ceremony. Would that happen in this case too? Bloating as the intestinal bacteria goes wild and creates a lot of gas?

 

[Leilei]

I hadn't thought of that ... that wrinkled hands on a 13 year old might be perceived as weight loss. With grandmother being a vocational nurse, wouldn't she have told her daughter that people don't loose weight on their fingers ... bone thin fingers in Hansel and Gretal with sagging skin? That doesn't sound right. Isn't that muscle tissue disintegration?

Is anyone being straight with the mother?

BBM. Only CHO, from what I've seen. Didn't work out so well

 

[Zuri]

Did anyone else get the impression that the family is paying out of pocket for her medical care? IIRC, there was a reference made yesterday that NW thanked ppl who had donated as it was going to Jahi's care. Am I recalling this incorrectly?