Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #6

[Linda7NJ]

Her faith and belief is bolstered by stories like this one.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html

If it's even a one in a billion chance, she is going to hang onto the belief her child is the one.


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"But despite the operation being successful, brain scans failed to detect any electrical pulses and he was declared brain dead."

From the article above

And

"Dr Piper, who runs a private practice in Leicester, said: "They had doctors saying he wasn't going to live but the parents felt there was flickers of response and it wasn't just wishful thinking."



What if, for the sake of argument ....Jahi's mother is correct?
What would the ramifications be?








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[BeginnersLuck]

What I don't understand, is if they are so insistent that she can breathe on her own, and her heart can beat on its own, why do they need the machines? I'm seeing this as a contradiction of their religious beliefs as well. If you believe God will save her or He knows best, turn off the machine. If she lives, Christians around the world should celebrate Easter twice a year. If she dies, then it's Gods will, and she's in a better place.

After reading the statements of the family, people on their Facebook page, and these "doctors" that performed surgery on that poor deceased girl, the nurse in me feels like screaming. That poor child. I have taken care of bodies before, and the nurses at the hospital did the same, I'm sure with the utmost respect. Not so much the people caring for her now.

There is a argument out there for that as well. Even though IMO, it makes no sense.

Those in support of this, use the argument that god is working through those machines and it is god who is responsible for those machines being invented. Or, something like that....

 

[Linda7NJ]

This seems a little apples and oranges--this person was in a medically induced coma and they WERE able to detect "faint" brain activity.

The second opinion requested by the family, that reportedly annoyed the original ones..detected faint activity.
If the story is to be believed.

That said, how many people COULD recover but don't because loved ones allowed organ donation?

The New York lawsuit I linked on an earlier thread as many as ONE in FIVE iirc.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1919079/

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Edited to add..
http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/09/lawsuit_organ_donor_network_pr.htmlIn a subsequent episode at St. Barnabas Medical Center in the Bronx, network employees and the neurologist disregarded tests, which McMahon conducted, showing signs of brain activity in a female patient, he alleges. McMahon's requests for further examination were rebuffed.

In another episode at Kings County Hospital Center in Brooklyn, network employees processed a patient's paperwork even after he responded to pain-stimuli tests performed by McMahon and a co-worker, the lawsuit contends.

 

[Donjeta]

I know it would be expensive, but another MRI/brain scan might show the mother and family how much worse Jahi's condition really is. As a mother and RN, I would want to be present to view the MRI on screen as the imaging is done. I have seen one before and you can actually see blood cells flowing through the vessels of the body. It is amazing.

It would probably be cheaper than maintaining her on organ support for weeks or months but I am not sure if it would work. There was an interview of the mother before the results of Paul Fisher's independent exam came out and she was asked what she would do if Fisher's result was the wrong one and she said that it wouldn't matter, she'd continue believing what she does. She's defending herself by shutting out all the evidence that points to her devastating loss.

Perhaps she would trust the doctors in Jahi's new hospital if they said the same thing. But if they don't believe in irreversible brain death they might not.

 

[MaybeNotToday]

I know it would be expensive, but another MRI/brain scan might show the mother and family how much worse Jahi's condition really is. As a mother and RN, I would want to be present to view the MRI on screen as the imaging is done. I have seen one before and you can actually see blood cells flowing through the vessels of the body. It is amazing.

I wondered that too when I saw the picture someone in this thread uploaded of the healthy, damaged and dead brain. It's just so clear when you see the difference. But would her distrust extend to the machine that took the picture? Would she question if it was really Jahi's brain or someone is trying to trick her?

 

[J1981]

I wonder if there will be more solicitations for money. $50K doesn't last long in medical care, especially with 2 procedures. IMO

I got the impression that donations of care were being made beyond the monetary donations. JMOO.

 

[Frigga]

I think NOTHING is going to change this mothers mind- only Jahi's body giving out of its own volition, while attached to all the life support equipment and even then I think she will have a severe mental breakdown and complete break from reality. She is not herself. The truth is too much to bear.

 

[dh109977]

This has probably already been discussed. How far can this go? How long can the machines keep her heart beating? Will she be very visibly decomposing before their eyes or will it be all inside and she will remain looking normal. I can't imagine the younger siblings having to go see her if she is decomposing and possibly smelling like death.

 

[Leilei]

"But despite the operation being successful, brain scans failed to detect any electrical pulses and he was declared brain dead."

From the article above

And

"Dr Piper, who runs a private practice in Leicester, said: "They had doctors saying he wasn't going to live but the parents felt there was flickers of response and it wasn't just wishful thinking."



What if, for the sake of argument ....Jahi's mother is correct?
What would the ramifications be?

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BBM... Linda, I wish. I really do wish it were possible that her mother is correct, and Jahi will "wake up" and be the girl that she was prior to this tragedy. Anyone with an ounce of compassion would feel the same, imo. But it's not going to happen

Ramifications-wise, my goodness, can you imagine the hospital over-crowding, the insurance/payment craziness, if this were allowed to happen for every single person whose family was allowed to do this with their legally dead loved ones? In this case, if she were to have a miracle "recovery", who do you go after? CHO, the impartial doctor from Stanford, the judges?

 

[Donjeta]

"But despite the operation being successful, brain scans failed to detect any electrical pulses and he was declared brain dead."

From the article above

And

"Dr Piper, who runs a private practice in Leicester, said: "They had doctors saying he wasn't going to live but the parents felt there was flickers of response and it wasn't just wishful thinking."



What if, for the sake of argument ....Jahi's mother is correct?
What would the ramifications be?








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I think it would be simultaneously used as evidence that
1) the doctors at CHO and Fisher were wrong and Jahi wasn't brain dead, nor dead
and
2) God answered prayers and performed a miracle.

Although if God performed a miracle the doctors at CHO could have been right all along about Jahi being brain dead and dead. I think His miracle would be sadly cheapened if it was just a case of a bunch of incompetent fools making a false diagnosis.

 

[Herat]

I know it would be expensive, but another MRI/brain scan might show the mother and family how much worse Jahi's condition really is. As a mother and RN, I would want to be present to view the MRI on screen as the imaging is done. I have seen one before and you can actually see blood cells flowing through the vessels of the body. It is amazing.

You could show her 40 MRI's, PET scans, etc and she would not says she believes it and it would not change what Dolan and the family have planned for the physical shell of Jahi that is being artificially maintained.

It's not about truth, and it really never was once Dolan entered the scene.

 

[SilkySifaka]

"But despite the operation being successful, brain scans failed to detect any electrical pulses and he was declared brain dead."

From the article above

And

"Dr Piper, who runs a private practice in Leicester, said: "They had doctors saying he wasn't going to live but the parents felt there was flickers of response and it wasn't just wishful thinking."



What if, for the sake of argument ....Jahi's mother is correct?
What would the ramifications be?








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Scary. Just as we now know people in vegetative states and can have all feeding removed so they starve to death may very well be alive and locked in and conscious (yes there is a diff between the two but the bottom line is it was fine to starve a PVS to death and now it is not so fine-or at least until an fmri is done which only a handful of hospitals have).

I think it is why there are such strong feelings either way. The idea of killing someone who is brain damaged is sickening if they aren't actually in a pvs. (i won't say what i think of starvation as a manner of death, different story..i find it horrifying. Alright i said it lol..they should be put to death with a cocktails of drugs that stop any possible suffering and we know without doubt that some were suffing the torments of the damned waiting to die from starvation.

The idea of a brain dead person actually miraculously coming back to life scares the bejesus out of people including me because of what it means. the thousands killed or left to die with no proper care because it was assumed by the science of the time they were dead.

And i think that is where her moms denial is at.

 

[SilkySifaka]

BBM... Linda, I wish. I really do wish it were possible that her mother is correct, and Jahi will "wake up" and be the girl that she was prior to this tragedy. Anyone with an ounce of compassion would feel the same, imo. But it's not going to happen

Ramifications-wise, my goodness, can you imagine the hospital over-crowding, the insurance/payment craziness, if this were allowed to happen for every single person whose family was allowed to do this with their legally dead loved ones? In this case, if she were to have a miracle "recovery", who do you go after? CHO, the impartial doctor from Stanford, the judges?

all of them If it happened they should have known better. Even her family knew better than the others and they should pay a high price for it. Criminal in some cases.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Just to make sure I understand--

Do (some) people in this this thread really believe there is a (scientific, not miraculous) chance Jahi could 'wake up', or is this mostly just theoretical debate?

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I agree with what you are saying. Absolutely. After watching the video of the interview with the mother it is apparent she is in extreme denial/delusion.

Here is my thinking, in terms of the part of your post I have bolded- in her mind these same "doctors" (interchangeable in her mind) told her (or at the very least what she heard) was that her beloved daughter was going in for a fairly routine surgery (I am almost certain this is the way she "heard" it) and came out of surgery fine; smiling, writing and well.

Then all hell breaks loose and she passes out because it was all too much to handle (I can understand).

Believing those very same doctors (in her mind) afterward, as to the condition of her daughter fell on deaf, unbelieving ears because in her mind THEY LIED TO HER IN THE FIRST PLACE. This is how I see the intense, unrelenting denial she is eschewing. The moment things didn't go as the doctors said they would- they became the enemy- before the pronouncement of brain death even- the moment things went to hell in a hand basket.

I hate to admit this, even knowing what I know but I would like a miracle- for completely selfish reasons- I would. We, the unsuspecting public look at doctors as Gods, not reasonable- not even fair but many of us do and when (in our minds) they let us down then who can we look to? She is listening to these other people because in her mind they have no ulterior motives, they aren't seeking financial gain (not attorneys) they are sharing their stories out of the goodness of their hearts, and she trusts them. I understand her intense and powerful ability not to 'take the words' of the medical professionals who lied to her in the first place (in her mind). That is how she sees it... that is how she needs to see it.

I can offer her my compassion for that very reason.

God speed the universe to take Jahi home, once and for all, let her heart stop beating so her mother can move forward believing she fought the good fight for the baby girl "she loved before she was ever born"... I hope I never have to know her pain personally or walk in her shoes. MOO

I agree with you and I don't mean for my posts to sound insensitive, or to give the impression that I don't have empathy or some understanding for her denial.

IMO, the media circus has given an illusion that these things "just don't happen", they only happened to Jahi and family. In reality though, there are parents that are suffering and grieving everyday because of loss. I give my sympathy to others as well, that suffer the loss of a child/loved one. Most families don't run to the media and courts. It's a somewhat private matter.

These families don't get the outpouring sympathy from others all over the nation, nor do they get much needed (in a lot of cases) financial assistance.

I'm concerned about the illusion. I also have questions about other families that may want the same as Jahi is receiving because of this illusion. Will these medical providers extend their charity to these other families? If they don't, will there be other families that question why they didn't receive the same? How can it be justified that one receives special treatment but not others?

This has set a very bad precedent IMO, on so many levels.

 

[threecrazykids]

BBM... Linda, I wish. I really do wish it were possible that her mother is correct, and Jahi will "wake up" and be the girl that she was prior to this tragedy. Anyone with an ounce of compassion would feel the same, imo. But it's not going to happen

Ramifications-wise, my goodness, can you imagine the hospital over-crowding, the insurance/payment craziness, if this were allowed to happen for every single person whose family was allowed to do this with their legally dead loved ones? In this case, if she were to have a miracle "recovery", who do you go after? CHO, the impartial doctor from Stanford, the judges?

I have also been thinking about this - the ramifications if God forbid we do witness the "rise from the dead". Will CHO suddenly explain that even though there MAY have been miniscule brain activity that it was not life supporting so that there is some sort of threshold set within the medical communities that once a person's activity goes below X they are considered "dead"?
I can't even imagine WHAT could happen financially to our entire insurance and hospital systems should this type of medical support be sustained even after TOD is called.
The only way to remedy this would be for the families/donations to absorb 100% of the costs and the care be 100% donations by doctors.

But then, when does it stop? When does the family get to decide when the body is taken to the coroner? What if someones religious belief of death goes beyond death of all organs? That they are only dead when the family feels the spirit has completely left it's earthy body? What if that time never comes - that they can always "feel them here - she's not ready to go"?

I mean WHERE are limits SET?

Like I said - if the family who accepts the dead body from the coroner also is required to sign off on extensive legal paperwork that states they are 100% responsible for any and all expenses once the body is released AND also releasing the hospital of any future legal action etc. I don't think you'll see this happen.

You want the body and believe a miracle will cure them? The hospital clearly can't be held responsible for the failure of God's wishes being granted or not - so sign away. :banghead:

 

[Leilei]

Just to make sure I understand--

Do (some) people in this this thread really believe there is a (scientific, not miraculous) chance Jahi could 'wake up', or is this mostly just theoretical debate?

I was replying theoretically, as I am 100% convinced that this poor child died almost a month ago.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Just to make sure I understand--

Do (some) people in this this thread really believe there is a (scientific, not miraculous) chance Jahi could 'wake up', or is this mostly just theoretical debate?

Personally, i sincerely doubt it.

I'm not a neurologist and like most people I'm stuck believing them and trusting science. That not to say they're infallible.

I do think the lines are a little too blurry between life and death as defined here in this case and in organ donation.

I prefer the dead to be cold, stiff and grey.

I'm interested in the ethics and legal ramifications and who gets to decide.


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[Quester]

Once JM was released by the coroner's office into the care of the family/new facility, would any impartial medical professional continue to visit JM? To impartially document her condition? TIA

 

[Frigga]

BeginnersLuck, Just to be clear I see you as anything BUT insensitive- no one here and posting, actually. I appreciate the profound sensitivity here at WS, and that is why I come. We may have differing opinions but the compassion, kindness and understanding never wanes. I appreciate the intelligent exchange of opinions and ideas- always.