Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

[BeginnersLuck]

Burns personal agenda:

http://lifeguardianfoundation.org/

Reminds me of the people that wrote the book in the name of religion to justify child abuse, or others that have views that are so out there, they literally have walked so far they have fallen off the cliff.

 

[seattlechiquita]

Been away for a couple of days and truly, truly wanted to come home today and find that this child had been laid to rest, but I was not that lucky. :sigh:

 

[Nore]

As someone who is pragmatic and a realist, even if this were my daughter, I'd have no choice but to concede the simple truth of my situation and would understand that my child was not going to come out of this and, with brain death, there would be no hope. I'm someone who believes that it's important to put a loved one's medical needs and well-being ahead of my own feelings and that goes for losing a loved one to death.

In fact, I just lost my father this past September and the 3 days he was in hospice while we were waiting for him to pass was the most difficult thing because we (my mother and I) just wanted him to be free, at peace, and not have to linger in a body that was no longer working. We only wanted what was best for him and realized his passing was best for him because he was ill and not going to recover. Granted it wasn't a child so the dynamics are different, but I only cared about what was best for him.

I'm sure it's unimaginably difficult to lose a child and so unexpectedly. I can't see how these medical interventions honor the child in any way.

---------
Madeleine, I agree. I went through this with my husband a few years ago. I spoke with his Doctors, eegs, C scan, mri, Amy and I took him off the ventilator. We felt the same as you did. Yes it was very different but on the other hand I felt a great peace for him. He is with our children now. I know he is happy. If that gets me through the day thank God for my thoughts. On a joyful side I told granddaughter " cant you just see your Dad telling his sister, here comes Dad". I hope you are doing well and mom.:loveyou:

 

[Yoda]

Off topic- My son is off to the children's hospital tomorrow. Thankfully, he will not be a patient this time. He is going for his Eagle Project. He designed 50 custom LEGO sets for the patients to play with during their stay. He'll be presenting them and holding a building party. Proud mama here!

 

[Donjeta]

[JM] is a living person
January 14, 2014
By Paul A. Byrne, M.D.
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/byrne/140114

The only function of the brain that is clinically evaluated is the "ability of the patient to breathe on her own." Yes the vital activity of Jahi's breathing is supported by a ventilator. The apnea test was done by the consulting neurologist, who took away the ventilator for 9 minutes. Try holding your breath for even one minute. No breath to Jahi for 9 minutes! Multiple times! During that time carbon dioxide increased in Jahi's brain. That causes the brain to swell. The test was done for Jahi to make her prove that she could take a breath on her own. When she did not take a breath, that confirmed that the ventilator should be removed. Imagine being unconscious and not fed for weeks and having to prove you could take a breath or that would be the signal to finalize your existence on earth.

He's more than a little confused.
The ability to breathe is not the only function that is tested. She was given oxygen during the test. They probably already had seen brain edema in the scans before the apnea test was ever thought necessary since it's likely to have been a factor in cutting off the perfusion in her brain to begin with. She had not been "not fed for weeks" when the first two brain death examinations were done, unless her family was starving her.

And well, if I imagine holding my breath for even one minute, it just brings it home more that Jahi is not doing well at all if she didn't even try to breathe for nine minutes. It sounds like something a dead person might do.

 

[MissJ]

I have no doubt Jahi's family knew it was not their place to use suction. Like I've said before....how many times does an RN or MD have to instruct them? I'm sure they were told to not give her food, not have her talking or laughing but they did all that. I am not going to blame staff at CHO. But I do know the family has admitted using suction. I would not attempt a medical procedure on a family member in a hospital. Why did they think it was ok? My two cents worth

 

[MissJ]

He's more than a little confused.
The ability to breathe is not the only function that is tested. She was given oxygen during the test. They probably already had seen brain edema in the scans before the apnea test was ever thought necessary since it's likely to have been a factor in cutting off the perfusion in her brain to begin with. She had not been "not fed for weeks" when the first two brain death examinations were done, unless her family was starving her.

And well, if I imagine holding my breath for even one minute, it just brings it home more that Jahi is not doing well at all if she didn't even try to breathe for nine minutes. It sounds like something a dead person might do.

Excellent points.

 

[K_Z]

“A 13-year-old should not have to suction herself,” Sealey said. “She had to use a suction machine to suction her own blood. Her mother and stepfather had to suction out her blood at points. None of them work for this hospital.”

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Oakland-8th-Grader-Brain-Dead-After-236015681.html

BBM.

Is anyone else as bothered as I am by the bolded comment? Ever since I read that the first time, weeks ago, it has bothered me. It can be interpreted several ways, obviously.

I just cannot wrap my head around why he offered that comment to the media. It is, at once, factual, arrogant, angry, confusing, condescending, and offensive, IMO. It instantly took the focus off Jahi and her horrible crisis, and puts the whole focus of the crisis on the family. Jahi disappeared with that comment, IMO. That just feels very wrong to me. I have never quite known how I "should" interpret this from uncle OS. The first part of his comments pull me in, and compassion, concern, and empathy fill me.

But then I see this jarring comment follow, which instantly pushes all that down, and I am startled at the absurdity and condescension of the comment, and I get a "WTF??" feeling. Maybe I take offense because I'm a health care professional, IDK. But that comment has hung with me for weeks. Something about that comment is just not authentic, IMO. It was a very stupid thing to say, IMO. I feel manipulated every time I see it in print. JMO, FWIW. :twocents:

 

[wendiesan]

Is there raw footage online for the interview? There may be comments which would shed some light on the shading of this statement.

I agree with your analysis, but I'd like to know just how Sealey's comments were edited before publishing. Will see if I can find anything, unless someone else already has this information.

IMO, there are MANY comments by OS and NW that could be seen as pointing to conflicting stories being promoted by the family and/or their lawyer.

 

[al66pine]

A pt w 3 surgical procedures must have been difficult for the OR team.

From the first post-op hours and days w a pt like this must have been a nightmare for all H/C ppl involved.
Sounds like early on, post op, too many visitors, poss interference w PICU staff and others (resp. ther? phlebotomists? housekeeping? whoever).
Then disruption to other PICU pts and fam on that unit.
Then disruption to other pts and fam, E'ees, on throughout hosp.
Then disruption to other pts and fam, E'ees, vendors, suppliers, outside hosp, w protests and pressers.
Etc.
The disruption of the various dr, hosp E'ees, ethis committee, etc spending time diverted from regular duties, to provide info to atty's to be used in drafting their declarations to file in court doc's.
The hosp. time and money spent in caring for a dead person (which won't be pd by private ins, govt, or any third party).
The money hosp has spent in legal fees to respond to fam's multiple legal actions.
The awful publicity and poss effect on donors.
Negative impact on hosp dr, E'ee, and other morale.

And of course, this is only tip of the iceberg, excluding other legal actions fam will file against CHO and the other Does 1-100, for malpractice, wrongful death, and any other conceivable lawsuit and perhaps some more inconceivable lawsuits.

JM2cts and I may be wrong.

 

[Elley Mae]

Jahi had always snored, but about a year ago it became louder. She told her mom at one point: "Mom, I've never had a dream."

Her interrupted sleep started affecting her grades in school, which is common with severe sleep apnea cases, and that's when her mother became concerned.

"It really didn't bother her. She was so used to it, but as her mother it bothered me because I knew the effects," Winkfield said.

A pediatrician visit led to an ear, nose and throat expert, which led to an evaluation that determined she had a "very severe case" of sleep apnea.

Winkfield's research led her to the Oakland children's hospital, where the surgery was performed.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...om-and-13-days-at-childrens?source=JBarTicker

Winkfield's mother, a nurse, replaced her in the ICU, but when Winkfield heard an alert called for Room 10 -- Jahi's room -- she said she rushed back to find staff attempting to restart her daughter's heart. Then Winkfield blacked out, she said, and was admitted herself.

She found out her daughter was in a coma from her own first floor hospital bed, she said.

 

[RJA00]

My son had his tonsile out year and half ago. I just don't remember seeing a suction thing in the recovery room. I have never heard of tonsils causing sleep problems, His was removed because all he had to do was walk by someone with strep throat and he got it. he was antibiotics every other month He has not had strep since removing his tonsils. after surgery he went to recovery then home, no icu.

back in the early 80's I was scheduled for the surgery but the day before my surgery, a child died having their tonsils out and my mom cancelled the surgery. I still have my tonsil. I was supposed to have tonsil and ear tubes put in.

I just cant see them giving her anything to eat after that surgery, My son wanted nothing to do with food, and the boy loves to eat.

 

[MLO]

Jahi had always snored, but about a year ago it became louder. She told her mom at one point: "Mom, I've never had a dream."

Her interrupted sleep started affecting her grades in school, which is common with severe sleep apnea cases, and that's when her mother became concerned.

"It really didn't bother her. She was so used to it, but as her mother it bothered me because I knew the effects," Winkfield said.

A pediatrician visit led to an ear, nose and throat expert, which led to an evaluation that determined she had a "very severe case" of sleep apnea.

Winkfield's research led her to the Oakland children's hospital, where the surgery was performed.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...om-and-13-days-at-childrens?source=JBarTicker

Winkfield's mother, a nurse, replaced her in the ICU, but when Winkfield heard an alert called for Room 10 -- Jahi's room -- she said she rushed back to find staff attempting to restart her daughter's heart. Then Winkfield blacked out, she said, and was admitted herself.

She found out her daughter was in a coma from her own first floor hospital bed, she said.

So it sounds like Jahi was fine until mother left the room and Grandma was left alone with her. Parents don't usually pop out in a crisis, they don't ask to be replaced while everything it hitting the fan. It sounds like Grandma the "nurse" came in, thought she knew what she was doing and then everything headed south.

 

[MissJ]

Winkfield's mother was/ is an LVN, a lot different than an RN. LVNs know procedures they don't necessarily know the why or where something is done. IMO this is a perfect example of "a little knowledge is dangerous". JMO

 

[MLO]

My son had his tonsile out year and half ago. I just don't remember seeing a suction thing in the recovery room. I have never heard of tonsils causing sleep problems, His was removed because all he had to do was walk by someone with strep throat and he got it. he was antibiotics every other month He has not had strep since removing his tonsils. after surgery he went to recovery then home, no icu.

My son had his out for the opposite! He never had infections but his tonsils were causing sleep problems.

 

[MLO]

Winkfield's mother was/ is an LVN, a lot different than an RN. LVNs know procedures they don't necessarily know the why or where something is done. IMO this is a perfect example of "a little knowledge is dangerous". JMO

Exactly. I saw my newborn have a fair few lumbar punctures, I reckon I probably could give it a shot, I sure as hell wouldn't though!

 

[katydid23]

So it sounds like Jahi was fine until mother left the room and Grandma was left alone with her. Parents don't usually pop out in a crisis, they don't ask to be replaced while everything it hitting the fan. It sounds like Grandma the "nurse" came in, thought she knew what she was doing and then everything headed south.

bingo---:facepalm:

 

[jaxibear]

Jahi had always snored, but about a year ago it became louder. She told her mom at one point: "Mom, I've never had a dream."

Her interrupted sleep started affecting her grades in school, which is common with severe sleep apnea cases, and that's when her mother became concerned.

"It really didn't bother her. She was so used to it, but as her mother it bothered me because I knew the effects," Winkfield said.

A pediatrician visit led to an ear, nose and throat expert, which led to an evaluation that determined she had a "very severe case" of sleep apnea.

Winkfield's research led her to the Oakland children's hospital, where the surgery was performed.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...om-and-13-days-at-childrens?source=JBarTicker

Winkfield's mother, a nurse, replaced her in the ICU, but when Winkfield heard an alert called for Room 10 -- Jahi's room -- she said she rushed back to find staff attempting to restart her daughter's heart. Then Winkfield blacked out, she said, and was admitted herself.

She found out her daughter was in a coma from her own first floor hospital bed, she said.

I thought that the staff was nowhere to be found due to a shift change?

 

[Trino]

It seems just about everything has been discussed in previous posts and has been well-said. We're all just waiting for the finale with Jahi and then the lawsuit.

While I believe the family may have done something wrong after the girl's surgery, i.e talked, laughed, fed her, incorrectly suctioned her, we may never get the full story. IMO the hospital will settle with the family and will not be able to publicly vindicate itself. Most cases are settled before going to court.

 

[Sonya610]

Originally Posted by Elley Mae View Post
“A 13-year-old should not have to suction herself,” Sealey said. “She had to use a suction machine to suction her own blood. Her mother and stepfather had to suction out her blood at points. None of them work for this hospital.”

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...236015681.html

I just cannot wrap my head around why he offered that comment to the media.

Well I can't figure out why any of them would use a suction device at ALL if the bleeding was distressing them. Obviously suctioning the blood does NOT stop the bleeding.

But worse, on the off chance that it is true, that five family members INCLUDING the patient used the device that is even WORSE. Were they each experimenting with it? Even if they thought it was "necessary" at that moment why would they each "take a turn"?