Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

[Softail]

Maybe Dolan has realized how ridiculous he sounded by saying "she's improving". What else is there to report? :waitasec: That she is still dead? :waitasec:

:dunno:

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Oh, this guy, this GUY. So, if it squirms in response to stimuli it can't possibly be dead, then. So these frogs are still alive by Dr. Byrne's definition (WARNING: VIDEO MAY BE DISTURBING TO SOME.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_K6VqEQuaA
Completely alive, those frogs. Yeah. Right.

:floorlaugh: I can't get the image of those frog legs dancing out of my head. There's an orchestra playing too!

 

[neesaki]

Oh, this guy, this GUY. So, if it squirms in response to stimuli it can't possibly be dead, then. So these frogs are still alive by Dr. Byrne's definition (WARNING: VIDEO MAY BE DISTURBING TO SOME.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_K6VqEQuaA
Completely alive, those frogs. Yeah. Right.

I knew you all would just love this guy :wink:

 

[Wolfie]

Hmmm...so people can have two death certificates?

I think it would be better compared to a birth certificate that can be amended if parents don't choose a name at birth or the child is adopted. Not two birth certificates, they just alter what it says when they have more information.

 

[Quester]

Looks like, early on, someone close believed this child had passed on and had become an angel, JMO:

http://media.nbcdfw.com/images/640*365/jahi6.jpg

Or, Google search "Jahi + Angel", view Images, with search time criteria since Dec 9th.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

After everything I have learned throughout these threads (thanks to everyone) and through my own research, here is where I stand at this point.

1. I respect the Orthodox Jewish faiths right to their beliefs, that death occurs when the heart stops functioning. This, in most cases, would happen fairly quickly after brain death if no extraordinary measures are taken.

I don't however agree with the argument in this case with Jiha, whether used due to religion or other beliefs, that just because we have the ability to mechanically ventilate a body due to modern technology, after brain death and keep the heart beating, oxygen circulating and blood flowing, that death hasn't occurred. It's merely an illusion due to modern technology.

Those that argue the use of continued mechanical ventilation, after death has been determined, seem to back themselves in a corner, or go in circles with this argument. The argument is that God has given us this technology, therefore this is what we should use it for, even though all it does it prolong the false illusion that a person is deceased.

The reason why mechanical ventilation is used, is because brain death can not be immediately determined. Therefore, time is needed to do the tests to verify whether there is even the slightest bit of brain activity and any signs of life. After a certain amount of time has passed, usually 72 hours in situations such as Jahi's and at least two tests are performed and they verify the brain is dead, mechanical ventilation is stopped.

The brain is a vital organ and once it dies there is no reversal. A person is dead. The brain decays quickly, but other body organs are slowly deteriorating. All that machine is doing is prolonging that deterioration.

Someone explain to me, who in their right mind, would insert a feeding tube in a childs body after they have been deceased for three weeks? The intestines and other organs, are not working to the point where nutrition can be absorbed by the body. Nutrition can be given by IV where it will go directly into the bloodstream.

Who agreed to do this to this childs body? If it was a physician were they aware that Jahi was brain dead and had been for weeks? Were they aware of Dr. Fiori's reports, specifically as it pertains to the bowel, intestine and gut? If they were not fully aware of her condition when operating on her body, then someone needs to answer for lying in order to have a medical procedure performed. That goes for not just the physician/s that performed the procedures but every other medical provider that was involved in the procedure and all others that are involved in her care.

If those that operated and others that continue to care for Jahi's body are using extraordinary means to do so and are aware of her true condition, then this IMO is on the very high end of unethical, potentially illegal and is mad science at it's best.

The only..only way I can see this as being some how acceptable, is if her deceased body (death certificate) was donated to science and they have stated that they are conducting some sort of research to justify their actions.

 

[Quester]

From American Thinker or American Stinker?

* * *

[JM] is Alive
http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/01/jahi_mcmath_is_alive.html

 

[Donjeta]

From American Thinker or American Stinker?

* * *

[JM] is Alive
http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/01/jahi_mcmath_is_alive.html

James Coulter is the pen name of physician

Who won't use his or her real name because...?

No doubt Jahi's case will work its way through the courts. The most fundamental right of any human being is the right to life, and an excellent case can be made that Jahi McMath's civil rights were violated when she was denied examination by physicians of her family's choice or transfer to a facility of her family's selection until the courts compelled it.

According to the hospital there were three physicians of her family's choice who examined her.

http://www.thaddeuspope.com/images/Winkfield_v._Childrens_Hosp_Oakland_Cal_2013_.pdf
Dr Byrne was not approved because he is not licenced in California.

http://www.thaddeuspope.com/images/13.12.24_McMath_proceeding.pdf

 

[neesaki]

Makes sense to me. She probably couldn't swallow very well if at all.:twocents:

I've finally gotten somewhat caught up on the case, and I agree with you all. Also, choking is a cause of cardiac arrest. Oh, why would they do something like give her solid food against the Dr's orders.:facepalm: Sadly it looks like that may well have been what happened. How horrible.

And if that's what happened that would partially explain why they're having such a hard time letting go, and why they won't allow any information to be released. I can't even begin to imagine the guilt .... :cry:

 

[ArianeEmory]

Who won't use his or her real name because...?

Site seems more bloggy than MSM-y. And the guy says some ridiculous things.

 

[Madeleine74]

Orthodox Judaism does not encourage keeping a body animated through mechanical means like what is happening in the Jahi case. Recognizing death as heart death is about natural processes, not keeping a heart beating for no purpose and with no positive outcome possible.

 

[Donjeta]

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-new...news-moral-debate-over-brain-death-diagnoses/

Jahi McMath Case Renews Moral Debate Over Brain-Death Diagnoses (2784)
Catholic experts are divided over the question of whether life support should continue to be provided to the 13-year-old girl.

http://www.troyrecord.com/opinion/2...s-need-for-americans-to-talk-more-about-death

The Jahi McMath saga is yet another symptom of Americans’ discomfort in dealing with death.

The taboo in our culture forces loved ones at the most emotionally volatile of times to suddenly confront realities of death long held in denial. No wonder reason and understanding can be casualties.

In happy times, who wants to read about the science of death or talk over dinner about dying? It’s easier to block it out. But Jahi’s tragedy is another call for adults of all ages to improve their understanding of death, think about what they want for themselves and, most important, talk with loved ones about it.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

From American Thinker or American Stinker?

* * *

[JM] is Alive
http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/01/jahi_mcmath_is_alive.html

Another wonderful source for "news", where any joe blow off the street can write something, submit it and it will be published. People will read it and think it has credibility.

I just can't get enough of these! <sarcasm>

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I've finally gotten somewhat caught up on the case, and I agree with you all. Also, choking is a cause of cardiac arrest. Oh, why would they do something like give her solid food against the Dr's orders.:facepalm: Sadly it looks like that may well have been what happened. How horrible.

And if that's what happened that would partially explain why they're having such a hard time letting go, and why they won't allow any information to be released. I can't even begin to imagine the guilt .... :cry:

I have tried to steer clear of commenting on speculation of what happened.

I think there is a lot of truth to the BBM in your post though. Whether it's as simple as Jahi being scared to have the procedure or it goes deeper, remains to be seen "if" we ever get to see or here from the hospital on what happened that day.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Orthodox Judaism does not encourage keeping a body animated through mechanical means like what is happening in the Jahi case. Recognizing death as heart death is about natural processes, not keeping a heart beating for no purpose and with no positive outcome possible.

I hope my post didn't come across as if I was insinuating Orthodox Judaism does. I have a prior post where I tried to point out that what they are doing with Jiha's body is not at all the same. That is why I stated that I respect certain religious beliefs specifically Orthodox Judaism.

They have tried to use the religious argument though, to substantiate their reasons for doing what they are doing with Jiha.

I am trying to illustrate that what they are doing is much different than what they are trying to use as a comparison.

I feel like I may be doing a horrible job in explaining this and I don't want my posts to be offensive to anyone.

eta: I tried to clarify my last post a little better. My previous combined sentences in the post may have been offensive to some.

 

[Donjeta]

Maybe Dolan has realized how ridiculous he sounded by saying "she's improving". What else is there to report? :waitasec: That she is still dead? :waitasec:

:dunno:

http://www.thaddeuspope.com/images/McMath_EXHIBITS_1_of_2.pdf

Maybe he finally read his own petition. BBM.

p. 25 of 93

Petitioner brought her healthy, beautiful daughter to Children's Hospital Oakland for a routine operation. Her daughter died from what she is concerned may be medical negligence. She has not undertaken an analysis of the professional errors that led to her daughter's condition because she is focused on keeping her daughter alive.

Analysis of the legal case so far:
http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2014/01/legal-history-of-jahi-mcmath-case.html?spref=tw

 

[Wolfie]

The Jahi McMath saga is yet another symptom of Americans&#8217; discomfort in dealing with death.

The taboo in our culture forces loved ones at the most emotionally volatile of times to suddenly confront realities of death long held in denial. No wonder reason and understanding can be casualties.

After loosing several relatives in a year, I longed for the routines and traditions of death in Victorian times. I don't want to go back to the amount of death as we had back then, but because we don't have that amount of death, people don't understand it, and we're expected to shrug it off and move on. There was an acceptance and an informal timeline of how long it took to recover, as well as physical symbols to let others know what you were dealing with.

Also, there was a knowledge that some people had breakdowns and refused to accept that their loved one was dead, and people held them back to try to pull them back into reality. They didn't enable them.

 

[joypath]

Oh, this guy, this GUY. So, if it squirms in response to stimuli it can't possibly be dead, then. So these frogs are still alive by Dr. Byrne's definition (WARNING: VIDEO MAY BE DISTURBING TO SOME.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_K6VqEQuaA
Completely alive, those frogs. Yeah. Right.

BBM: SO darn sad!

Um, shades of AP HIGH SCHOOL BIOLOGY....maybe Dr. Byrne might want to refresh his memory??....Pithing frogs & muscle stimuli...or pehaps he slept thru college Biochem and the Krebs cycle....and more than a few Pathophysiology classes!

 

[LarkBunting]

If it wasn't all over MSM, I would think this entire story was a rumor or urban legend. Who does this?

As a mother, I can understand Jahi's mother to a certain extent. If anything happened to my kids, I would be beside myself, out of my mind with grief. I would need to be medicated, likely. However, I also strongly feel that I would not want my (God forbid) child's body on parade like this. There can be no healthy grieving or eventual peace without one's child being allowed to rest in peace.

Now, if I had anything to do in the slightest with causing the death (feeding child after surgery?!?!) or even feeling that something I had done maybe contributed, I would lose my mind. I'm sure I would feel guilty for even signing the consent forms for surgery. BUT, I truly believe Jahi's mother loved her & made the decision for surgery bc she wanted Jahi to live a higher quality of life.

This leads to my belief that yes, something must have happened post-surgery, something done by the family, that directly contributed to Jahi becoming brain dead. The solid food feeding seems plausible, as does someone using a suctioning device they had no business using. I'm sure there was panic in that hospital room. And, now, there is denial, disbelief, & I have to admit, I even get a "cover up" feeling from the family's statements & actions. There is tremendous guilt there, but WHY? IMO, it goes beyond the normal mother guilt at deciding to allow the child to have surgery.

I feel awful for Jahi's nurse, who has (appropriately) maintained her or his silence. I hope she or he is receiving counseling. I can't imagine dedicating myself to caring for children's health needs, working hard, then being accused of doing something to harm a patient.

I also have a HUGE grain of doubt that a CHO PICU nurse would be a bumbling idiot. Come on, now, jobs are hard to find. I'm sure CHO gets lots of job applications & has its pick of the health professional candidate pool. In my gut, I feel CHO & its staff did nothing wrong. I hope it all comes out in court one day.

As a mental health professional (not verified by WS), well, I'm honestly mind-boggled. How has this chain of events been allowed to occur? I honestly think, in my neck of the woods, that if a parent asked for continued life support for a child who had been declared brain dead by SIX physicians, the parent would have 1.) been denied & 2.) been sent for a mental health evaluation.

How was this situation even allowed to come about? I think a team of outside experts needs to evaluate the chain of events, piece by piece, to determine how this was allowed to happen & how to prevent another case like this from happening in the future.

Poor Jahi.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BeginnersLuck]

If it wasn't all over MSM, I would think this entire story was a rumor or urban legend. Who does this?

As a mother, I can understand Jahi's mother to a certain extent. If anything happened to my kids, I would be beside myself, out of my mind with grief. I would need to be medicated, likely. However, I also strongly feel that I would not want my (God forbid) child's body on parade like this. There can be no healthy grieving or eventual peace without one's child being allowed to rest in peace.

Now, if I had anything to do in the slightest with causing the death (feeding child after surgery?!?!) or even feeling that something I had done maybe contributed, I would lose my mind. I'm sure I would feel guilty for even signing the consent forms for surgery. BUT, I truly believe Jahi's mother loved her & made the decision for surgery bc she wanted Jahi to live a higher quality of life.

This leads to my belief that yes, something must have happened post-surgery, something done by the family, that directly contributed to Jahi becoming brain dead. The solid food feeding seems plausible, as does someone using a suctioning device they had no business using. I'm sure there was panic in that hospital room. And, now, there is denial, disbelief, & I have to admit, I even get a "cover up" feeling from the family's statements & actions. There is tremendous guilt there, but WHY? IMO, it goes beyond the normal mother guilt at deciding to allow the child to have surgery.

I feel awful for Jahi's nurse, who has (appropriately) maintained her or his silence. I hope she or he is receiving counseling. I can't imagine dedicating myself to caring for children's health needs, working hard, then being accused of doing something to harm a patient.

I also have a HUGE grain of doubt that a CHO PICU nurse would be a bumbling idiot. Come on, now, jobs are hard to find. I'm sure CHO gets lots of job applications & has its pick of the health professional candidate pool. In my gut, I feel CHO & its staff did nothing wrong. I hope it all comes out in court one day.

As a mental health professional (not verified by WS), well, I'm honestly mind-boggled. How has this chain of events been allowed to occur? I honestly think, in my neck of the woods, that if a parent asked for continued life support for a child who had been declared brain dead by SIX physicians, the parent would have 1.) been denied & 2.) been sent for a mental health evaluation.

How was this situation even allowed to come about? I think a team of outside experts needs to evaluate the chain of events, piece by piece, to determine how this was allowed to happen & how to prevent another case like this from happening in the future.

Poor Jahi.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you for your post. Very well stated.

I have been hoping for someone in the mental health profession, that has experience with grief counseling, to whey in on this from that perspective.

I haven't seen any mental health professions, anywhere on the web speak about it.