Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

[Quester]

Op-Ed: In Jahi's case, past time for a reality check
The truth is she's been dead for more than a month now, and the time for subtlety is over.
The situation, to put it bluntly, is a disgrace.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/comm...brain-death---media-20140116,0,4738876.column

 

[ItsJustaName]

Unless you know the circumstances of the trip or the family dynamic, perhaps that assumption would be pointless.
Unless just to poke fun and vilify the family further.

I really don't see what it has to do with anything.

But that's just me.

By "poke fun and vilify the family further" you are implying that I have already vilified and made fun of the family. Examples please? Otherwise feel free to apologize.

The uncle has claimed to have been in the hospital on the day of the surgery when he was obviously in Cabo. Thats the point. If the family culture as that everyone should be at the hospital, why did Jahi's mom have to remind him via twitter?

 

[Cubby]

Re: suctioning tool

Would CHO have been able to examine the receptacle where suctioned material was collected to see if bits of solid food particles were present? TIA

Someone mentioned upthread there may have been evidence of solid food based on what was pumped out of Jahi, or what blood was collected.

 

[Cubby]

Glad to hear! Thanks kaRN!

ETA: How would CHO know/prove who the suctioned material came from? TIA

Wouldn't that info be noted on J's chart? I'm sure dna could prove the blood belonged to Jahi. (And then I would expect some argument from
CD on why dna isn't really dna......)

 

[katydid23]

That's what happens with editing. Here's the entire quote from that article.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...om-and-13-days-at-childrens?source=JBarTicker

After about 45 minutes of asking what was happening, Winkfield said she was brought to the ICU, where Jahi was sitting up in bed bleeding from her mouth.

Winkfield said nurses told her it was "normal," but the bleeding increased and the nurses gave her a cup and paper towels to contain it. Soon blood spilled from Jahi's nose, Winkfield said, and she tried to contain it with a small bucket, napkins and a suction device.

Unable to speak and drowsy on morphine, Jahi wrote her notes, Winkfield said, asking "Is this blood?" "Why am I bleeding so much?"

Winkfield's mother, a nurse, replaced her in the ICU, but when Winkfield heard an alert called for Room 10 -- Jahi's room -- she said she rushed back to find staff attempting to restart her daughter's heart. Then Winkfield blacked out, she said, and was admitted herself.

So according to this version of events, Mom was the one who was suctioning, before Grandma entered the room.

 

[Quester]

Wouldn't that info be noted on J's chart? I'm sure dna could prove the blood belonged to Jahi. (And then I would expect some argument from
CD on why dna isn't really dna......)

jumping off your post ...

re: receptacle for the suctioned material

Is the receptacle cleaned out when the bed is turned over to a new patient or would there be suctioned material from a number of patients and only cleaned out when receptacle is full? TIA

:lol: "why dna isn't really dna"

 

[al66pine]

Med folks or others
What is a hosp ordinarily obligated to do re Pt. transfers?


Pt-Requested transfer
I(A) Religion.
911 call, where ambulance transports pt to gen cityhosp, pt is treated in ER maybe admitted as inpatient, but pt wishes to be transported to, say, a Lutheran or Catholic hosp?


I(B)Geography
Or maybe if hospitalized while out of town, pt wants to be transported to a hsop closer to home.


II Transfer to Continue Med Treatmt for Brain-Dead Pt
IIRC, Jahi's mom's petition requesting TRO to require CHO to cont vent, and insert feeding & breathing tubes, also asked ct to locate another hosp or facility willing to receive Jahi.


III. Medically-dictated transfer
I imagine some types of specialized med care would mandate transfer?
For ex, a pt transported by ambu to gen hosp, may need to be transferred to a hosp w specialized unit -- a burn unit, high-risk pregnancy wing, or maybe brain surgery. Or?



IV. Other Reasons for transfer ___?


What do hosps gen'ly do?
What are they actually required to do?

Re pt-req transfers, like I(A), I(B)?
Re II? (Guessing these requests are quite infrequent and usu unfruitful.)
Re III and IV?

Color me curious. :seeya: Thx in adv.

 

[mck16]

Someone mentioned upthread there may have been evidence of solid food based on what was pumped out of Jahi, or what blood was collected.

It is going to take a lot to convice me that someone snuck in a Big Mac or any solid food and fed it to a post op patient. That just does not happen. jmo

 

[J1981]

It is going to take a lot to convice me that someone snuck in a Big Mac or any solid food and fed it to a post op patient. That just does not happen. jmo

Well, I think we all want it not to happen but that in reality it's somewhat common, according to some of our RNs here. In my opinion, feeding Jahi was a large part of the way her mom showed her love for her daughter, so slipping her food may not be completely out of the question. IMO of course

 

[threecrazykids]

It is going to take a lot to convice me that someone snuck in a Big Mac or any solid food and fed it to a post op patient. That just does not happen. jmo

Well...according to the family "no one was around" so who would have been there to know?

It wouldn't surprise me AT ALL if someone snuck food into that room. I would venture to bet that any medical professional here can give personal testimony to more than one occasion where they had to address outside food being brought into a patient when it wasn't allowed.

Some people simply don't follow instructions. That doesn't necessarily mean that the parents had ill intent at all. She probably said she was hungry and they thought "a couple bits of my burger won't hurt".

I certainly am not quick to assume it doesn't happen.

 

[dh109977]

It is going to take a lot to convice me that someone snuck in a Big Mac or any solid food and fed it to a post op patient. That just does not happen. jmo

I disagree. They don't pat you down when you enter the icu. It is very possible to smuggle food into the icu. Did it happen? I don't know I am waiting for that answer. But it is very possible.

 

[meanmaryjean]

I disagree. They don't pat you down when you enter the icu. It is very possible to smuggle food into the icu. Did it happen? I don't know I am waiting for that answer. But it is very possible.

To answer your question (and NOT to speculate on this case) people can and do bring all manner of food into the ICU.

One example (among hundreds): Cardiac patient I once had (who was on a strict fluid and sodium restriction because of his failing heart) had his mom bring him a BigGulp and HUGE bag of chips from the mini mart.

 

[threecrazykids]

So, in regards to this link - is it possible for them to evade HAVING to return her body to anyone once she passes?

http://www.fcapeninsula.org/HomeFuneral.html

Per the legal code, they can opt out of an autopsy due to "religious reasons".

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=gov&group=27001-28000&file=27490-27512

Not sure how well their case is going to stand up if they have no autopsy though - I know if I were making decisions on the situation I would certainly feel like something was being hidden (even though the autopsy is probably irrelevant at this stage of the game.)

 

[dh109977]

To answer your question (and NOT to speculate on this case) people can and do bring all manner of food into the ICU.

One example (among hundreds): Cardiac patient I once had (who was on a strict fluid and sodium restriction because of his failing heart) had his mom bring him a BigGulp and HUGE bag of chips from the mini mart.

I kinda figured. I remember being hugely pregnant and my ex's grandmother was in the icu. Thinking back every memory I have of that time at the hospital I was eating. I am sure I could of walked into wear she was. Nobody every really paid much attention to me walking in and out. Maybe a greeting but never anything more.

 

[sayd]

Ok, I haven't read this thread all the way through; and I hate to be graphic. But since she is dead, isn't she going to start to decay no matter what they do to her? I understand they can make you breathe and make the heart beat manually, but if the brain is dead, how do all the cells in the body keep functioning?

 

[al66pine]

Well...according to the family "no one was around" so who would have been there to know?

It wouldn't surprise me AT ALL if someone snuck food into that room....
Some people simply don't follow instructions. ...

SBM BBM

Appears this fam thinks they are entitled to exceptions to the hosp's policies, or to make their own rules re hosp. e.g.,
--- many more fam visitors than hosp rules.
--- visiting many more hours than hosp rules.

And mom's creates a new definition of death, rather than following CA law.

JMcts and I may be wrong. :seeya:

(Still hoping she and fam find peace after this horrid loss)

 

[Wolfie]

To answer your question (and NOT to speculate on this case) people can and do bring all manner of food into the ICU.

Yes, a friend who had a mild stroke had some people bringing food in. Not the healthiest, but she was on very little food restrictions, if any. They did stop it because it was bothering other patients.

 

[Wolfie]

So, in regards to this link - is it possible for them to evade HAVING to return her body to anyone once she passes?

http://www.fcapeninsula.org/HomeFuneral.html

Per the legal code, they can opt out of an autopsy due to "religious reasons".

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=gov&group=27001-28000&file=27490-27512

Not sure how well their case is going to stand up if they have no autopsy though - I know if I were making decisions on the situation I would certainly feel like something was being hidden (even though the autopsy is probably irrelevant at this stage of the game.)

This is just my opinion, but I strongly suspect that they had to sign some sort of agreement about it before they took her.

 

[ArianeEmory]

This is just my opinion, but I strongly suspect that they had to sign some sort of agreement about it before they took her.

I seem to recall an agreement has been mentioned, no idea if it's legally binding.

Does seem like they'd need to produce a body to pursue their lawsuits. Interesting and horrible chess game they're playing.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

If hospital personnel are not in any way responsible for what happened to Jahi, I hope that CHO doesn't settle out of court. The truth needs to be told.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
- Sir Walter Scott -

I agree, the truth needs to be told. CHO's reputation should be worth more than an ongoing legal battle and a large settlement. The PUBLIC needs to be aware of the facts, also. We may not be ENTITLED to them, but there is SO much misinformation out there about brain death, transplants, ICU care, families visiting and what they can and cannot do, what the laws are regarding brain death, etc.

As far as Christmas goes, Jahi died well BEFORE Christmas (and, trust me, their Christmas WAS ruined at that point, and it will continue to be sad for some of them for many years to come). Also, as far as legalities go, Christmas is not usually considered -- it's just another day of the year; our bodies will do whatever they do or do not do, regardless of the day. What about religious holidays for people of other faiths? Do Jewish or Muslim people get to try to strongarm hospitals into leaving their loved ones on organ support for a month after they die, just so that one of their holidays/holy days isn't spoiled, or does that only apply to the Christmas season?