Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #8

[popsicle]

Terisa Estacio ‏@TerisaEstacio 33m
#attorney Chris Dolan tells me #JahiMcMath is doing well at her new facility. #KRON4news

https://twitter.com/TerisaEstacio

 

[popsicle]

Terisa Estacio ‏@TerisaEstacio 33m
#chrisdolan attorney for #JahiMcMath says she is responding well to new facility. Her mom pleased about transfer

https://twitter.com/TerisaEstacio

 

[danzn16]

No kidding. I have very expensive private insurance (I'm part time and DH is self-employed). I recently had a colonoscopy. The insurance paid for the screening portion but refused to cover removal of ONE pre-cancerous polyp. To the tune of $1300!. Seriously?!?!?!

Wow that us one if the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. Polyp removal is part of colonoscopy of need be. No further effort required. Sheesh. But yes let's give full care to a body just because a family thinks they know better than the world of medicine.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[danzn16]

The show I watched at HuffPo the other day... one of the guests said to Dolan that no insurance company pays for a deceased person anywhere. jmo

This is what I would think with as stingy as insurance companies are. So why would the family purposefully lie about it? How would they afford it?


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[wendiesan]

http://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/2014/01/16/honor-beliefs-in-end-of-life-decisions/4520157/

He makes a good point but because death has some rather important legal consequences (e.g. in financial and criminal matters, inheritance etc.) it shouldn't be a fuzzy concept imo. Either you are dead or you aren't. It's not Schroedinger's cat.

If families decide who is dead and who isn't, it could lead to ugly situations when one person stands to benefit financially if grandpa is dead and another if he's still alive.

What if someone defines his existence and life and meaning so that he insists that he is dead before the doctors think so? Should the legal system honor that and cart him to the morgue?

For all those people who took "physics for arts majors" back in their undergrad years, here are some articles which will explain the great reference in Donjeta's post. (FWIW, later Schrodinger regretted using a cat as a potential victim in his thought experiment.)

This has to be one of the most educational discussions going!

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/Schrodingers-cat

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...nger-erwin-google-doodle-cat-paradox-science/

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-schrodingers-cat.htm

 

[animlzrule]

Has anyone heard any legal eagles discussing that inserting a feeding tube into a corpse, as well as maintaining IV access in a corpse may fall under the "abuse of a corpse" definition? And if so, who brings about such a charge? I suppose no one would touch it with a 10 foot pole though. I can't imagine there is any political benefit for a party to do so, no matter what the moral or ethical grounds may be.

 

[K_Z]

http://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/2014/01/16/honor-beliefs-in-end-of-life-decisions/4520157/

Honor beliefs in end-of-life decisions
David Orentlicher 1:38 p.m. EST January 16, 2014

He makes a good point but because death has some rather important legal consequences (e.g. in financial and criminal matters, inheritance etc.) it shouldn't be a fuzzy concept imo. Either you are dead or you aren't. It's not Schroedinger's cat.

If families decide who is dead and who isn't, it could lead to ugly situations when one person stands to benefit financially if grandpa is dead and another if he's still alive.

What if someone defines his existence and life and meaning so that he insists that he is dead before the doctors think so? Should the legal system honor that and cart him to the morgue?

For all those people who took "physics for arts majors" back in their undergrad years, here are some articles which will explain the great reference in Donjeta's post. (FWIW, later Schrodinger regretted using a cat as a potential victim in his thought experiment.)

This has to be one of the most educational discussions going!

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/Schrodingers-cat

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...nger-erwin-google-doodle-cat-paradox-science/

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-schrodingers-cat.htm

I do think that Schrodinger's Cat is what will ultimately be argued somewhere in the court circus that will certainly follow, but not using quantum mechanics, or science, or law-- instead using religion.

And they will paste on a serious demeanor and trot out an expert witness list with the likes of people like the pseudoscientist massage therapist demonstrating ear/ kidney meridians, and maternal mitochondria séances. They will fly in the hairdresser from New York to talk about the need for speech therapy and physical therapy for the brain dead. Remember the guy with the "enhanced" brain wave machine that he "may have" tested on Ariel Sharon? The guy fired from every job he ever had? He's just a misunderstood genius! Remember Silly Sally Karioth? Alyce LaViolette? Dr. David Byrne will be happy to lend pseudoauthenticity with his MD and his blenderized puree of Catholicism. The show must go on. There has been no shortage of snake oil salesmen and Wizard of Oz opportunists.

Minette (I think?) reminded us of the parallels of Jahi's case to Faulkner's A Rose for Emily way up thread. The Marlise Munoz case is being compared to the decanting bottles in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Lots of literature themes thru the ages about these 2 cases.

Megan Daum's LA Times op ed got it exactly right. IMO.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/comm...media-20140116,0,4738876.column#axzz2qiuJCSew

 

[Nore]

Has anyone heard any legal eagles discussing that inserting a feeding tube into a corpse, as well as maintaining IV access in a corpse may fall under the "abuse of a corpse" definition? And if so, who brings about such a charge? I suppose no one would touch it with a 10 foot pole though. I can't imagine there is any political benefit for a party to do so, no matter what the moral or ethical grounds may be.

---------
Hi, I am afraid to post what I read as I dont remember where I read it. I know it was a newspaper article. They are feeding her antibiotics, vitamins or minerals etc. that her body would need, potassium for one.Said they didnt insert gtube. That would make sense as where would food such as Jevity go? She cannot digest. Food would have to come out sooner or later, wouldn't be pretty. I swear I read this.Might be abuse of a corpse. :loveyou:

P.S. I still havemy mind, wish I had all my memory.:tantrum:

 

[K_Z]

Mari Fagel ‏@MariFagel 2m
Our first episode of the new season of Justice is Served is up, check it out for a discussion of the #JahiMcMath case BHL Justice Is Served - January 17th, 2014 - YouTube …

Omg. What a clear case of cognitive bias.

Cognitive bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These 2 women have no idea what they are talking about. The errors in this are astounding, particularly for the woman in the blue shirt who is very confident she knows what she is talking about.

And wow, Jahi's mom really is in her 20's?? Did I hear that?

 

[Wolfie]

And wow, Jahi's mom really is in her 20's?? Did I hear that?

I am trying to find the exact age, but I think her older sister is about 20.

Found it:

Jahi has been part of the school's “extended” family for more than a decade. Jahi’s older sister, J M, now 20, graduated in 2009 as valedictorian

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...-Academy-Friends-Believe-Alive-239629891.html

 

[wendiesan]

snipped for focus

And wow, Jahi's mom really is in her 20's?? Did I hear that?

Judging from the ages of her children, if J M is also NW's daughter, then NW gave birth at the age of 9 to be in her 20's. If Jahi was NW's first child, then she could have given birth when she was 15 or 16, although I don't think that would have been too likely. So, it may be possible. I haven't read much about the family structure, but the fact that her siblings all have different surnames suggests to me that Jahi was part of a blended family--if, of course, the information in the article is accurate.

Others may have more relevant information.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...-Academy-Friends-Believe-Alive-239629891.html

"Jahi’s older sister, J M, now 20, graduated in 2009 as valedictorian. Her brother, J L, is now in fourth grade at the school. Jahi's younger sister, J J, is in kindergarten."

 

[Donjeta]

Omg. What a clear case of cognitive bias.

Cognitive bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These 2 women have no idea what they are talking about. The errors in this are astounding, particularly for the woman in the blue shirt who is very confident she knows what she is talking about.

And wow, Jahi's mom really is in her 20's?? Did I hear that?

I only listened with half an ear and missed that part of the show where they talked about anyone's age. Jahi was 13 and the maternal grandmother is only 50 so either NW or SC or both have to have been teen mothers. If NW had Jahi when she was 16 or younger she could still be in her twenties.

But the article about the school praying said that Jahi's oldest sister is 20 so if it's NW's child she'd have to have given birth when she was nine or younger in order to be in her twenties now and it might be stretching it a bit far. I suppose the eldest could be a half sibling with the same father and a different mother.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...-Academy-Friends-Believe-Alive-239629891.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...utine-tonsil-operation-left-life-support.html

 

[shana]

The ages of Jahi's mother and her husband were stated in a msm article perhaps some 10 days ago, but I can't find it anymore.

iirc, they are close in age. She may be a year older than her husband, and around the age of 34.

~fwiw/jmo~

 

[shana]

Kudos to anyone who got thru more than the 3:16 minutes where the BHL tube is paused in my browser as of this very moment.

Soon as I hear misstatements of fact, I don't want to spend my time viewing any of the rest.

There were at least 3 erroneous statements in the first 3 mins of that video 'show'.

~jmo~

 

[jdra]

mom is 34. grandma is 50. mom's oldest child is actually 19 not 20 as incorrectly reported in the article about Jahi's school.

 

[shana]

mom is 34. grandma is 50.

Can you source that? I looked & looked a few days ago but couldn't find the article which so stated.

Or, do you have 'inside' info?

TIA!

ETA, I had also deduced from the eldest daughter's tweets that she was about to turn 19 (and did, yesterday 1/16), rather than 20.

~jmo~

 

[jdra]

Can you source that? I looked & looked a few days ago but couldn't find the article which so stated.

Or, do you have 'inside' info?

TIA!

ETA, I had also deduced from the eldest daughter's tweets that she was about to turn 19 (and did, yesterday 1/16), rather than 20.

~jmo~

Daughter/from tweets also. Grandma/ I saw online that she graduated <modsnip> in 1981. Mom graduated <modsnip> 1997.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

No kidding. I have very expensive private insurance (I'm part time and DH is self-employed). I recently had a colonoscopy. The insurance paid for the screening portion but refused to cover removal of ONE pre-cancerous polyp. To the tune of $1300!. Seriously?!?!?!

Do they only pay if it IS cancerous (and has possibly spread)? That would be typical insurance logic.

I seriously doubt that ANY insurance company would pay for anything done for/on a deceased person's body. They may pay for that "reasonable period" of up to 72 hours (probably more like 24-36 hours, if THAT) until organ support is removed, but they wouldn't DARE set a precedent which would open the door to having to cover it for ALL brain death cases past what THEY consider to be a reasonable amount of time. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they only paid for up to 8-12 hours after time of death.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

mom is 34. grandma is 50. mom's oldest child is actually 19 not 20 as incorrectly reported in the article about Jahi's school.

If the older sister was the one tweeting about celebrating her 18th birthday (and FINALLY getting her sister out of "that hellhole"), then she was only 17 when Jahi died.

Edited to delete extraneous comment.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Do they only pay if it IS cancerous (and has possibly spread)? That would be typical insurance logic.

I seriously doubt that ANY insurance company would pay for anything done for/on a deceased person's body. They may pay for that "reasonable period" of up to 72 hours (probably more like 24-36 hours, if THAT) until organ support is removed, but they wouldn't DARE set a precedent which would open the door to having to cover it for ALL brain death cases past what THEY consider to be a reasonable amount of time. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they only paid for up to 8-12 hours after time of death.

There are all kinds of insurance fraud cases for companies submitting claims for dead people. These are in most cases billings for services that weren't rendered. I don't know about billing for services that "are" rendered to a brain dead body. I would not put it past them to bill insurance as Byrne does not believe that Jahi is dead according to his criteria. It could be another messy battle like what happened in court. The insurance company should be alerted to potential fraud. There are certainly services that they are providing that wouldn't be deemed "medically necessary" considering she is deceased. For example: speech therapy among many other things.

I would not be surprised at all if they bill using some kind of TBI diagnosis.

http://nypost.com/2010/03/08/raiing-the-dead-in-medicaid-rip-offs/
http://www.insurancefraud.org/IFNS-detail.htm?key=17409#.Uto_z1oo7IU
http://www.oklahomacitylegalgroup.c...ed-with-medicaid-fraud-for-posthumous-billing
http://www.wggb.com/2013/03/14/medicaid-care-fraud-cases-3-local-residents-arraigned/