Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #8

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  • #641
I agree, Softail-- I haven't ruled out a private home setting either. Or perhaps a church building, etc.

They have a large following of supporters. Some of them are bound to be nurses aides, LPNs, or RNs. It is possible that they have accepted donated machinery, hospital bed, and supplies, and donated volunteer nursing services. That would keep costs down. And keep things very quiet and away from the media. The grandmother is an LPN-- she probably has a lot of connections to people who know how to do physical care. A small cadre of dedicated volunteers, who agree to keep quiet, could accomplish the task for a while.

I've cared for people on ventilators in the back of transport military planes, in the back of trucks, in tents, etc. If you know how to set up some equipment, oxygen, meds, IV's, and work out the electrical and oxygen issues, etc, it wouldn't be hard to set up a place to provide custodial care to a body, especially if it were classified as a home care situation. That is essentially what the "facility" in New York was going to do. I imagined that they were going to put her in an empty office space at their main building (the one without automatic doors, lol!) if she ever arrived there.

I do think the coroner knows where they took Jahi's body. I think that was almost certainly part of the arrangement to release her body to Mrs. Winkfield. It's standard procedure when a body is released to family members for transport, or for religious/ cultural rituals, etc. Basically, the receiving person has to fill out forms and disclose what they intend to do.

I think we will continue to hear occasional social media reports of "She's doing great! She's healing every day, and responds to her mother's touch", right up until the day that it is announced that she has been called home to be with God. I expect there will be an enormous funeral, eventually, with thousands in attendance. They do have a really amazing number of supporters, whatever we may think about that. Since everything they are doing is framed within their faith, there is no way for them to lose face within their religious community of supporters, IMO. If she rises up and lives, prayer worked. And if she doesn't, then God called her home, and they will continue to praise God. Their supporters will be there for Mrs. Winkfield's emotional needs when the time for the funeral comes, I think.

But then I think that they will immediately become immersed in the process of litigation, which will go on and on for years on end. I really hope the other kids are having their needs attended to, and have returned to some kind of regular routine. Sadly, instead of mourning their sister, I think that this atmosphere of prolonged "conflict", followed by litigation, will define their childhood. I feel like their identity has been buried in all this, with all of the adults around them focused on prolonging the "conflict". Jahi might actually BE the only one in this whole mess who is "healing". JMO.

I have a question if you or someone else in the medical field wouldn't mind answering.

What all medications would her body require and would blood and urine tests need to be performed in order to monitor her condition? This would be assuming every possible measures is being taken to keep her in her current condition for as long as possible.

I think that's where I got hung up with her being in a facility. I think it was due to Dolan and others bashing CHO for not giving her the same care a organ donor would receive and for not "feeding" her. I just felt like they would never settle for less than this extraordinary care and frankly, I had reservations that her heart would hold out for this long without all the extraordinary care.

Then after they moved her from CHO, there were statements made that she was receiving antibiotics and other? meds and being fed.

I'm just trying to comprehend this all being done in a home setting.

Maybe some of their statements were smoke though and her heart is just continuing to hold on with minimal complications thus far.
 
  • #642
I know someone, very close to me, who lives her entire emotional/relational life in denial. It took me quite a few years to figure it out and then many, many more to realize it is why nothing fazes her. It used to trigger me- because of my family history I make it a point to live in reality- the good the bad and the ugly. She is in her 70's now and I don't ever see her changing. For some people this is a way of life and I can't help but think that this has been a way of life for NW, way prior to the situation with her beloved daughter.

Frigga;

This is sort of OT, but not. The person you describe would be my mother, AND, my 2nd husband's mom. (How Freudian am I?)

Their lives are in their heads. Once something is decided, it is what they chose, not reality. Makes me bonkers, and they know it. So, I know they know reality, they just choose to be adamant, and deny the past and present.

I cannot make sense of the mindset, but have seen it enough to know that no one is changing that hard head. The reason it works for them is the threat of punishment, and the real punishment, they put you through after the fact. Reality is non-existent. You can NOT, even if the end result is negative, get these minds to realize truth, while they claim truth and "the Lord", there is no truth, just manipulation and hypocrisy. Erm, sorry, ranting. But there is no valid religion either, no logic, no nothing. Just "Because I Said So" behind it.

In this case, money may be the driving force. I hope it fails, I'm sick of false bearing law suits and high payouts. Those have had their day, and they alter the U.S. Civil Judicial System. Fortunately, this one has tracking back.
 
  • #643
I still don't think there is/ever was a "facility" that took her. I still think she is at someone's home. Purely my opinion only.

That video of her feet, I believe was done back when they went to court. That was when they claimed to have video showing she was "alive".

I think we all know Jahi is at some family members house. JMO.
 
  • #644
wowzer - I just went to her fund account, and they have raised 60K. I know it's not much, and probably just about covered the transport. I wonder if insurance is picking up the tab since she is "breathing" via a machine. This is a very difficult case.

MOO

Mel

Legally insurance has no place. Jahi was issued a Death Certificate.

How this will play out in the legal arena is why a lot of us are watching. (And against it, being that some have already been there with children, and, some with older ones.)
 
  • #645
Nore and Rob;

I don't put words in an acceptable way, so I try to avoid personal statements.

I want to thank you both for sharing your losses, and I cannot express enough sympathy. I am so sorry. I cannot claim to understand, and I thank you again for trying to tell us, even though we know words will not put us there.

With a sad heart,

Thank you both.
 
  • #646
Actually, that was not a "nursings report." It was a report to the Court, filed by Dr. Heidi Flori, MD, who is board certified in pediatric critical care medicine and who also participated in the assessment and care of Jahi at CHO. And you are right, that report is stunning and speaks to how bad things actually are vs. what we are told by the lawyer and certain family members.

http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/HeidiFlori.pdf

PARAPHRASING from the above document:
Nothing can be done to stop the natural progression of POST MORTEM bodily deterioration

IMHOO I'm afraid this family ignoring these facts will lead to a Norman Bates attic scene. :eek:
 
  • #647
  • #648
If Mr V is clinically (and legally) dead, and the physicians caring for him make that diagnosis, then no further "treatment" is legally warranted. Patients and families do not have legal rights to "consent" to a diagnosis of death, and families have no legal authority to direct medical treatment for their deceased relatives.http://www.nursingcenter.com/lnc/Jo...=260876&Issue_ID=737950#sthash.p49E0435.dpuf- See more at: http://www.nursingcenter.com/lnc/Jo...D=260876&Issue_ID=737950#sthash.p49E0435.dpuf

As usual Donjeta found a most interesting and pertinent document.
 
  • #649
From Sept 2007 article in Journal of Nursing Administration, as linked by Donjeta. Thx Donj!
""Medical necessity" generally is defined in language similar to the Medicare definition as care or treatment
"reasonable and necessary for the diagnosis or treatment of illness or injury or to improve the functioning of a malformed body member."# Because there cannot be any hope of treating the injury or improving the functions of a deceased patient's body, medical treatment of a dead patient is, de facto, medically unnecessary, even if it is being provided for the potentially morally justifiable reason of providing comfort to the family who will not accept the diagnosis of death.**
If a patient has been declared dead, billing for further care and treatment likely would violate (at least) the requirement of medical necessity, because the care will not effectuate a positive outcome for the patient. Thus, the hospital would be risking a charge of insurance fraud or violation of the state or federal false claims acts if it billed a third-party payer for treatment provided to Mr V after a clear diagnosis of death has been made.....
"See, for example, 42 CFR 410.12(a)(3) (2006) (stating that a physician must certify a service as medically necessary as a condition of coverage under Medicare part B); see also Krodel v Bayer Corp, 400 F Supp 2d 345, 347 (D Mass 2005) (describing definition of medical necessity under private health care plan)." BBM SBM
http://www.nursingcenter.com/lnc/JournalArticle?Article_ID=737966&Journal_ID=260876&Issue_ID=737950#P13
 
  • #650
I have a question if you or someone else in the medical field wouldn't mind answering.

What all medications would her body require and would blood and urine tests need to be performed in order to monitor her condition? This would be assuming every possible measures is being taken to keep her in her current condition for as long as possible.

I think that's where I got hung up with her being in a facility. I think it was due to Dolan and others bashing CHO for not giving her the same care a organ donor would receive and for not "feeding" her. I just felt like they would never settle for less than this extraordinary care and frankly, I had reservations that her heart would hold out for this long without all the extraordinary care.

Then after they moved her from CHO, there were statements made that she was receiving antibiotics and other? meds and being fed.

I'm just trying to comprehend this all being done in a home setting.

Maybe some of their statements were smoke though and her heart is just continuing to hold on with minimal complications thus far.

Just a guess, as I have no earthly idea what they really are doing, or hope to accomplish.

My best guess is that Jahi's body is not receiving the same level of care and monitoring that is "possible" in an ICU setting, or even a med surg bed in an acute care hospital. If I had to generalize, I'd say what they may be doing could be classified as "custodial care" or possibly palliative care (though palliative is an odd descriptor for a patient who is deceased).

There is an adage in palliative health care that you don't do a test if you don't want to know the answer (meaning, you don't intend to treat).

I could be wrong , but I think any labs potentially being done would probably be "bedside" labs, such as a urine dipstick, urine specific gravity, or a fingerstick blood glucose. As far as "send out" labs to monitor kidneys, liver, etc, I doubt that they are doing this. A LTC center would not have an in house lab, so would have to send out. (And may not have in house ability to draw labs into the proper tubes, etc.) If she is at a private home, same. And whose name would be put on the send-out lab tubes? The bigger question is what would be done with abnormal results? It's not like they are going to put her body on peritoneal or hemodialysis if her kidney function is wildly abnormal. I think they probably have a very limited ability to correct electrolyes. I suspect her liver function tests would be pretty abnormal at this point.

I know a body has diabetes insipidis for a "while" following brain death, but I have no idea if it continues beyond 6 weeks to 2 months duration? If she is still having DI symptoms, they might "chase" it with vasopressin to slow down how fast she is losing fluids, and try to keep her BP up, but if her kidneys are in the process of shutting down, I could also see retention of fluids and low urine output. They might be giving her thyroid hormones, but the dose wouldn't necessarily be dependent on a lab value. All this is dependent on a doc to write a prescription, and a pharmacy able to fill it.

Her heart is only 13 years old, and even with the cardiac arrest, must still be in good enough shape to pump regularly and sort of effectively without too much intervention. Pre load and after load is a big issue, as her body has lost the ability to regulate the expansion and contraction of her peripheral circulatory system. I doubt they have ability to do hemodynamic monitoring beyond external BP cuff pressures.

She may or may not have a central IV access line, but I doubt they would use it for central venous pressure monitoring. I seriously doubt she has an arterial line for BP monitoring and blood gas analysis, so any ventilator setting changes would be based, probably, just on physical symptoms, perhaps end tidal CO2, and pulse oximetry. And "guesswork".

I suspect her body is refractory (less able to respond) to a number of vasoactive drugs at this point. She may no longer be responsive to vasopressin. Who knows? There aren't too many health care providers who are "experts" at caring for brain dead patients 2 months out from brain death.

I highly doubt she would be a candidate to receive blood products, so monitoring those labs might be kind of pointless.

I think they probably provide hygiene care, skin care, turning, bathing, mouth care, lubriating eyes, trach care, peri care, etc. All that is fairly straight forward, and doesn't require a high level of skill, except trach care. I think she probably has lots of lung issues at this point-- even with antibiotics. Lots of atelectasis (small airway collapse) fluid filled areas, "pus" and either dried out thick secretions, or soupy secretions. She has no ability to mobilize secretions, so is dependent on suctioning, aerosolized humidification and medications, and maybe lavage (fluid instilled to thin secretions). They might be dripping some tube feed solution into a PEG. They might be giving IV vitamins or hyperal (TPN), and/ or lipid solution. Who knows what their capability is?

I do know that she will progressively deteriorate. Her periphery, in particular, is vulnerable to dehydration (tip of nose, lips, ears, fingertips, toes), as well as poor circulation. Eyes are vulnerable to drying out and becoming gummy on the surface, and would need protection and frequent lubrication. Her gums and the lining of her mouth may slough. Fungal infections, like thrush, are a constant issue, and she may have a coated tongue (white patches), or it could be blackened if her mouth is open all the time, or may look sort of normal. (There is only so much you can do with a sponge on a stick and a toothbrush.) Areas of skin compression may not have circulation restored just by turning her in bed. (I don't want to think too much about perineal care issues, but things like fungal infection is a realistic issue down there, too, along with urinary tract infection, etc. She may have a urine foley catheter, or be diapered. There may, or may not be bowel issues.)

Organ systems will shut down. How long that will take is anyone's guess.

The above is my best guess. I'd be interested in hearing any other health care professional's opinions, too.
 
  • #651
K_Z, I consistently find myself Thanking your posts at about two sentences in. :)
 
  • #652
I agree KZ. This is so counterintuitive I have a hard time imagining having central lines to a monitor, drips, an A line, any of it. Maybe a pick line? Who is monitoring all this? Vents alarm, BP drops (based on what was happening at CHO), IV site has to be maintained, Trach care, suctioning? In addition to basic care? Incomprehensible.
 
  • #653
Agreed, Zuri.

And then you also have issues of contractures from immobility. Hands and wrists would need to be splinted, in normal position, as well as have range of motion. Needs heel protectors, and foot drop splints, in addition to the sequential compression devices seen in the video. All of the physical care that would ordinarily be given to someone with PVS or comatose condition.

From CHO report, she was very unstable just with turning. I can't imagine doing upper and lower body range of motion twice a day or so, with all of the issues. She may be quite stiff in her limbs, joints, and spine. (Not rigor mortis, just stiffness from immobility.)

I would be very curious to know the date of the video posted on FB, then abruptly pulled. If it was recent, her feet look to be in better condition (better hydration, no foot drop) than I would expect. My strong suspicion is that the video wasn't from last week. Why would anyone go to such measures to conceal the embedded data? Almost seems like it was baiting for some kind of response, but unwilling to provide details to authenticate. They could have posted it as a private video, and given the access code to people they approved-- but didn't.

The way that video was posted, altered in the embedded data, then abruptly pulled, seems very manipulative, IMO.
 
  • #654
  • #655
It is hard for me to believe that she is being cared for by 'amateurs' in a home care situation. I don't see how that would be possible. I think she is with one of the 'rogue' alternative medical groups that claim to 'heal' brain injured patients or something along those lines. jmo :moo:
 
  • #656
Be sure that the social media links do not contain a donation button or link as those are not allowed here... thanks
 
  • #657
I agree KZ. This is so counterintuitive I have a hard time imagining having central lines to a monitor, drips, an A line, any of it. Maybe a pick line? Who is monitoring all this? Vents alarm, BP drops (based on what was happening at CHO), IV site has to be maintained, Trach care, suctioning? In addition to basic care? Incomprehensible.

With all this presumed work to keep a brain dead body sustained, I find it incomprehensible for anyone to say she's doing great and just resting.

:scared:

MOO

Mel
 
  • #658
I agree KZ. This is so counterintuitive I have a hard time imagining having central lines to a monitor, drips, an A line, any of it. Maybe a pick line? Who is monitoring all this? Vents alarm, BP drops (based on what was happening at CHO), IV site has to be maintained, Trach care, suctioning? In addition to basic care? Incomprehensible.

I'm guessing rather that none of the critical stuff is happening. (Titrating drips, art lines, IVs). I suspect she is being cared for like any other home vent patient.

My second job is caring for such kids in their homes. There are ventilators made for home/ portable use (LTV and Trilogy are the two I am familiar with). A pulse oximeter is likely the only monitor. (Because it also monitors heart rate) Feeding pump (since we know she has a g-tube now) provides fluids and nutrition. Suction machine for home use.

I have worked cases where parents with an eight grade education have learned to care for children in similar condition (the difference being brain damage vs. brain dead - but the care would be the same). The parents provide 16-24 hours/ day of care with perhaps 5-7 eight hour nursing shifts per week. If they're lucky.

So it's not a far stretch of the imagination to think that she is indeed, in a home care situation.
 
  • #659
I agree KZ. This is so counterintuitive I have a hard time imagining having central lines to a monitor, drips, an A line, any of it. Maybe a pick line? Who is monitoring all this? Vents alarm, BP drops (based on what was happening at CHO), IV site has to be maintained, Trach care, suctioning? In addition to basic care? Incomprehensible.

Plus the smell has to be very apparent by now.
 
  • #660
Plus the smell has to be very apparent by now.

I don't know as I have never taken care of a brain dead patient for any extended period of time. I think KZ and others have described her body condition most likely as deteriorating, rather than decaying. With that said, her brain having no blood supply or oxygen, is.

Smh. I can't even picture this in my head.
 
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