Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #9

[gitana1]

This is why this case affects me so much. It's a touchstone for why critical thinking skills are so important, and why we really, really need people to be invested in them, not magical thinking, for the good of the species and for our civilization.

The family is playing a game that is transparent to anyone who sits down and thinks about points like the above, but which is probably easily explained away ("it's for Jahi's privacy") by the people involved who value faith over medicine or science. But because this is playing out on the stage of public media (by the family's choice and manipulation), 'faith' is going to lose, sooner or later.

I just hope that fact wins at least some people over to the side of critical thinking.

There is no "side" for people to be won over to. Either you learn it or you don't. You can't expect people to know how to read if they haven't been taught. Same thing with critical thinking skills. We need to be challenged about reality and our beliefs on a consistent basis and asked that we reflect on what we "know" and why, in order to develop such skills.

 

[CHERIE.T]

SOOOOOO she's in a hospital, in NJ and it's likely her care is being paid for by the hospital. :facepalm:

Did this NJ hospital conduct any test to verify brain death or non brain death?
Have any NJ hospital personnel witnessed Jahi responding to her mom?

 

[katydid23]

SOOOOOO she's in a hospital, in NJ and it's likely her care is being paid for by the hospital. :facepalm:

Did this NJ hospital conduct any test to verify brain death or non brain death?
Have any NJ hospital personnel witnessed Jahi responding to her mom?

That's a good question. If she can follow voice commands, and move the correct body parts, I would assume the staff would conclude she was not brain dead. Wouldn't they make that known?

 

[K_Z]

There are 4 pediatric critical care intensivists at the Children's Hospital at St. Peter in New Brunswick, NJ.

Siva Jonna, MD, is the Director of Pediatric Critical Care medicine, according to the hospital website.

http://www.saintpetershcs.com/Physicians/Siva-Jonna/

http://www.saintpetershcs.com/FindAPhysician/

( 4 intensivists. McInnes is in Long Branch, NJ.)

 

[SwampMama]

Found this:
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...nd-brain-dead-life-support-christopher-dolan/

OAKLAND (KPIX 5) – Six months after doctors at Children’s Hospital Oakland declared her brain dead, KPIX 5 has learned the whereabouts of 13-year-old Jahi McMath.

She is now in a hospital bed at Saint Peter’s University Hospital in New Brunswick, New Jersey. She is in the pediatric intensive care unit of the Children’s Hospital where patients receive 24-hour, round-the-clock care.


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So if she is improving as her family says, responding to them, not needing meds or anything other than a ventilator on room air, then why the heck would she still be in the intensive care unit? If she is so improved as her family claims, then why hasn't she been moved to a less intensive unit, a rehab unit, a unit for people who are not in need of intensive 24 hour care?

I am sure that if there was ANY medical proof of an improvement or any of the other things her family claims, they would be putting it all over the news. But as it is, there is not no medical documentation, no medical tests, not one reputable doctor who can provide any real verification to back up the absurd claims that Jahi is moving responding and only "sleeping".

 

[shana]

Trying to catch-up here...thanks to ALL for links and comments. I don't know if this article has been posted, so I offer it here:

Expert: New Jersey 'best destination' for brain-dead patients

From the article:

The move from the Golden State to the Garden State would be a logical one, according to Arthur Caplan, director of the division of medical ethics at New York University's School of Medicine.

(lots more in full article)

 

[CHERIE.T]

from above link

Dolan said the family might ask for a fourth test to determine if she has brain activity. The first three -- including one by an independent physician -- found that Jahi had no brain function.

Smith said--
"I would be very interested in seeing the results of that evaluation. Short of that, I would be skeptical that the claims are accurate."

 

[Donjeta]

Well I suppose if she wasn't brain dead there would be no need for her to be in a state that treats brain dead people differently according to their religion

 

[CarolinaMoon]

Found this:
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...nd-brain-dead-life-support-christopher-dolan/

OAKLAND (KPIX 5) – Six months after doctors at Children’s Hospital Oakland declared her brain dead, KPIX 5 has learned the whereabouts of 13-year-old Jahi McMath.

She is now in a hospital bed at Saint Peter’s University Hospital in New Brunswick, New Jersey. She is in the pediatric intensive care unit of the Children’s Hospital where patients receive 24-hour, round-the-clock care.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if she were at St. Peters. It's the same hospital that, many years ago, was willing to let my sister bleed to death before performing a routine test for pregnancy. It was Friday afternoon and the test was scheduled for a Monday.

Fortunately, a nurse, speaking Hungarian with her roommate, told her the situation and was concerned for her life. After the nurse left, the other patient told us to GET HER OUT OF THE HOSPITAL ASAP!

Sis's doctor wasn't available, but I explained to his "cover" what the situation was. Discharge papers took an hour and we were out of there and down the road to what is now Robert Wood Johnson hospital where they saved her life. The doctors there were dumbfounded that they hadn't had the decency to order a transfusion to keep her alive over the weekend.

From what I've read here, the hospital is still extremely orthodox in their religious practices.

 

[nrdsb4]

That's a good question. If she can follow voice commands, and move the correct body parts, I would assume the staff would conclude she was not brain dead. Wouldn't they make that known?

The staff is bound by HIPAA and cannot make anything known without permission from NW.

 

[Tssiemer]

I'd imagine she'd want them to scream from the rooftop that she was right, that she's not dead!


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[nrdsb4]

^^I don't think she has any intention of letting the facts be known unless she can manipulate exactly how these "facts" are presented. I imagine the only medical professionals we will hear from are those like Paul Byrne and his ilk who have an agenda.

 

[K_Z]

I wonder what the DNR status is, of a patient who has already been declared dead, and has a death certificate? :facepalm:

 

[K_Z]

I still think, that at some point, the family might have to pursue having Jahi legally declared "un-dead". States recognize death certificates issued by other states. If Jahi had "originally" died in NJ, as a NJ resident, I could understand the legal test of the NJ exception in the statute. Since she was never been a resident (while legally alive), it seems they would have to continue to recognize her as dead.

And does someone who is dead have any legal standing to bring a legal challenge? Does the next of kin have status to bring this challenge, especially if they are not residents of the state?? Very, very thorny issue, IMO.

It is the only state in the U.S., Caplan said, with a law requiring hospitals to accommodate brain-dead patients who belong to a religion that does not accept the diagnosis as a final verdict for death.

And it appears Jahi's case could be the first to test the law, though it is not clear if it would satisfy it, he said.

"As far as I've been able to tell, no one knows if anyone has ever used it," said Caplan, who has followed Jahi's case and researched the 1991 law. "You'd probably have to show you belong to a church that doesn't accept brain death or a religious group.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/news/ci_25998064/expert-new-jersey-best-destination-brain-dead-patients

 

[K_Z]

I'm curious-- does anyone know how many PICU beds this hospital has? With 4 full time intensivists (which isn't a lot), I'm guessing maybe 8-10 beds?

For comparison, Children's Hospital Oakland has 8 intensivists.

I wonder if the St. Peter Children's Hospital PICU typically runs "full"? I cannot imagine dedicating a census bed in a situation like this for months on end. There are living children who might not have access to a PICU bed because of this situation. Can you imagine having, for example, to postpone a surgery for a sick child because there is no bed available for a planned PICU admit?

Perhaps they "created" a non-census bed space (smaller hospitals do that a lot-- change status of a medicare patient to a "swing" bed, etc), but it still takes staff to care for the body, the vent, etc. All of this costs an enormous amount of money. A PICU is definitely not an extended care facility-- as her unknown location was represented to be.

Perhaps they were directed to find their own volunteer caregivers, so as not to burden the timeclock, and the licenses and insurance of the licensed caregivers in their facility? So, so many issues. (And how do you get so many people to keep the "secret" that her body is there? That is a LOT of staff, and families, and visitors.)

I guess we don't know if her body has been maintained in this PICU for the whole 6 months, but there are so many issues surrounding admission of a brain dead patient, with a death certificate from another state 3000 miles away-- I just can't believe any hospital would want to be involved with all of the legal, political, financial, and publicity issues.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

While it's difficult to trust much of what the family and/or Mr. Dolan has reported, CD did say that the ambulance trip from CHO to the "new" facility took 12 hours. Surely, the road trip from Oakland, CA to New Jersey would have taken much longer.

If it's true that Jahi is now in New Jersey, how frequently does NW make the coast-to-coast trip? Where does she stay when she visits her daughter? Do other family members visit, as well? Will the family relocate to the east coast? The (possible) NJ location where Jahi might be poses many questions :waitasec:

 

[Philigumbo]

So if she is improving as her family says, responding to them, not needing meds or anything other than a ventilator on room air, then why the heck would she still be in the intensive care unit? If she is so improved as her family claims, then why hasn't she been moved to a less intensive unit, a rehab unit, a unit for people who are not in need of intensive 24 hour care?

I am sure that if there was ANY medical proof of an improvement or any of the other things her family claims, they would be putting it all over the news. But as it is, there is not no medical documentation, no medical tests, not one reputable doctor who can provide any real verification to back up the absurd claims that Jahi is moving responding and only "sleeping".

Vents can only be in the ICU in the hospital, besides PACU and OR. There are aftercare facilities that will take vents.

 

[wendiesan]

But maybe they really ARE going to try to get Jahi declared "un-dead" in New Jersey! This is gonna get even more interesting, lol!

"Un-dead in New Jersey"-- sounds like a really bad reality show...or a B-movie...or something else.....yikes.

snipped and bolded by me.

Please, K_Z, don't give OS anymore career hints or money raising ideas.
I see this being a "The Producers" rip-off as OS and CD sell shares in the production company to hundreds of the gullible, and have the production never reach air because it's in such poor taste. The $ would be absorbed by the "production company" since a profit would never be realized.

 

[K_Z]

Remember attorney Sam Singer, who represented CHO back in December?

He has some things to say about the current situation.

Questions Raised Over Condition Of Jahi McMath After Lawyer Said Girl Is Improving

June 20, 2014 12:02 AM

Singer tweeted on Thursday that if Jahi is alive, her lawyer should have her do interviews.

“I think the public deserves an answer. It’s not fair to tug at people’s heartstrings and make to false claims like this without being able to back them up,” Singer said. “The news media, independent physicians and the medical community ought to be allowed in, so they can make a judgment for themselves as to whether this is the greatest miracle known to man, or this is a hoax. Sadly, I think this is a hoax.”

And Christopher Dolan says:

“I can tell you that this family is not adverse to having these tests performed again, they may show something different than when Jahi was under the most acute stress of swelling of the brain and lack of food and nutrition,” Dolan said.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...i-mcmath-after-lawyer-said-girl-is-improving/

BBM.

Sooooooooooooo..........if the family is not adverse to having tests performed again, AND Jahi's body is being cared for in a Pediatric ICU, at a major pedes hospital, I just don't see the problem. Why the delay? These tests could be performed in the next couple hours.

Unless there is a big risk that the tests will continue to show that she is brain dead, and that the family is misinterpreting what they observe. So that would be a really good reason not to do any more testing. Because actual science, and their faith would still be in conflict. (Except I personally never believed that this whole situation had anything to do with the faith of NW and her family.)

 

[katydid23]

They could put the names of a dozen well respected Neurosurgeons from the East Coast and pull three at random. Ask those three to come and do in depth testing of her brain.