Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #9

[CHERIE.T]

I can hardly wait for future landmarks in the process of Jahi 'blossoming into a real teenager' and later a real young woman:

--her first date (NW can give her a mani/pedi, put a little make-up on her 'flawless' skin and dress her up in a cute outfit that she can wear now that she's lost so much weight.
--her prom, see above.
--her participation in the Glee Club.
--her high school graduation.

I mean, at what point does society stop saying, "Oh, this poor family needs time to grieve and accept their daughter's death" and start saying "they are treating Jahi like Brain-Dead Barbie and it is creepy and disrespectful."

EXCELLENT points.....I agree, this needs to stop.

 

[CHERIE.T]

If she responds to voice commands, she's made medical history and should have neurologists swarming over her to see how this happened.

Yes, the medical world will go wild....
brain DEAD girl responds to voices, even though she's dead. :scared: roll eyes

 

[Elainera]

K_Z, don't want to quote your long post, just thank you for it! This is extremely interesting, and it is absolutely astounding how long a body can go on without a brain to guide it, and even recover a little bit of function via the spinal cord. Absolutely astounding, so resilient!

I can imagine and to a certain extend understand that Jahi's family sees her moving and lowered dependency on medication and support as 'progress', and in a sense it is indeed progress, but of course it won't lead to a recovery of consciousness. But I can understand that it is extremely hard to let her go when watching her move and have reflexes etc.

In time Jahi will go, her heart will stop, and she will truly go. I hope that day will come sooner rather than later, so her family can grieve.

 

[K_Z]

Well, this link has been posted before, but if anyone doubts that limb movement after brain death is possible, check out these frog legs:

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...&mid=347E39DC02FFFDC7431F347E39DC02FFFDC7431F

And we also know about the Lazarus Sign reflex action, whereby when the neck of a brain dead person is flexed, and the arms are lifted up, and cross the body, before slowly lowering.

Lazarus sign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(I won't link youtube for that, but it is easily searched.)

I think it really is sad and pitiable that this family is so unwilling to accept the certainty and the science of what has happened, and what is happening to Jahi's brain dead body. It is so very, very deeply disturbing that they, and so many of their supporters, cling to unrealistic ideas that she is not dead, but "recovering" and improving.

I really don't see any of the family's behavior as a "religious" issue, but an issue of denial/ rejection of the science, enveloped within a social blanket of rebellion against authority, unrealistic hope, and intellectual ignorance. Toss in some entitlement mentality, and there you have it. IMO.

The hyper- religiosity and magical thinking displayed by many of their followers, IMO, is actually not shared by the McMath family. I have never thought they have pursued all these decisions about marches, recruiting demonstrations, clogging phone lines, rejecting brain death, etc. because of their religious persuasions. My perception is that they are angry and opportunistic.

I do believe NW was grieving long ago, but now I think she is so firmly entrenched in her delusions that there is no way out. She will sit at the bedside painting the fingernails and toenails, and talking about how much Jahi is "improving and blossoming", IMO, until Jahi's heart stops. And then we will simply hear a family message that "God made a decision to call Jahi home." There will be a massive memorial service, with lots of donations and press coverage, and then it will finally be over for Jahi's body. That's when the litigation will begin in earnest, and continue for 5+ years. That's my prediction.

The 8th grade certificate/ diploma is just a pause/ distraction for them, and their supporters. An opportunity (however twisted and painful) to pause and remember that Jahi has died, and will not "graduate" 8th grade. Oh yes, an opportunity to "get them dollas up" also, for sure, and manipulate and milk the situation for more press coverage.

But the fact remains, that diploma or no diploma, body movements or no body movements, room air oxygen, PT, or manicures, Jahi will never wake up. Ever. No amount of prayer, defiance, denial, or delusion, will change that. So very sad that no one the family trusts can get thru to them with reality. I hate that this teen will be forever remembered for what her family did with her body for many months after she died, rather than the happy kid she actually was. No one should want that for their child.

 

[wendiesan]

I saw this on a yahoo news page. I wonder does this number have any meaning?


Her family has fought in state and federal court to keep her on life support. McMath was then taken to a long-term care facility. [ID:nL2N0KG1KO

I googled the number and several articles that used the original as its basis, or which quoted the original came up. My guess is that the ID number is of the article making clear the authors who did the original work.

 

[wendiesan]

RE: #164
Thanks for another great post K_Z.
Your summary was right on point.

 

[pukasonqo2]

What the hell has happened to people, this is most crazy. Crap give her a harvard diploma too. why not?

don't give her family any more ideas please!


lupus est homini , non , non quom qualis sit novit

 

[CHERIE.T]

K_Z, don't want to quote your long post, just thank you for it! This is extremely interesting, and it is absolutely astounding how long a body can go on without a brain to guide it, and even recover a little bit of function via the spinal cord. Absolutely astounding, so resilient!

I can imagine and to a certain extend understand that Jahi's family sees her moving and lowered dependency on medication and support as 'progress', and in a sense it is indeed progress, but of course it won't lead to a recovery of consciousness. But I can understand that it is extremely hard to let her go when watching her move and have reflexes etc.

In time Jahi will go, her heart will stop, and she will truly go. I hope that day will come sooner rather than later, so her family can grieve.

bbm i'M CONFUSED, how can there be progress when she is brain dead?

 

[K_Z]

I wanted to add one more thought.

I no longer think Jahi's body will have an autopsy-- and I do think the body is being maintained somewhere outside of California.

When the heart finally stops, I'm predicting that they will rapidly have her body cremated, preventing any medical examination of her body for what has happened in the time after she was declared brain dead. That will leave the litigation to be based on records from CHO, and leave "the rest" to be their word only.

And they will claim to the media that the rapid cremation was in accordance with their religious "beliefs". IMO.

No way will this family allow Jahi's body to undergo autopsy, IMO. It would be too damaging to their position, and their eventual litigation as plaintiffs. JMO.

 

[Frigga]

... Jahi’s uncle, Omari Sealey, said today that the school initially was hesitant to give Jahi a diploma, but after he alerted news outlets to the family’s conflict with the school, school officials decided to give her the diploma. ...

... Sealey said that he thinks the media attention had an effect on the school’s decision, particularly because the school is in danger of closing — its petition to have its charter renewed was denied by the Oakland school board late last month:

“If you don’t want a bunch of cameras and a bunch of activity, just give her an honorary diploma.”
​

... Sealey said today that it has been a while since he has been to visit Jahi, but that she has motor functions and responds to voice commands:

“We ask her to move something, she’ll move it.”​

​

Omari Sealey wrote on Instagram Wednesday:

“As long as she continues to progress every day like she has been doing there is nothing any one can say to make our faith waver.”
​

http://sfbay.ca/2014/06/12/jahi-mcmath-to-receive-8th-grade-diploma/

BBM I would have never said this before today, but I'm going to now- PROVE IT. Put your money where your mouth is and show the world this wonderful miracle- otherwise, IMOO, shut the hell up.

WHY WOULDN"T YOU WANT OTHERS TO SEE HER MOVING TO COMMANDS?

One reason, and one reason only- it. isn't. true.

I have had enough of these lies.

 

[pukasonqo2]

any chances that jahi is not at an unknown facility but the family is keeping the charade going?

what i am trying to say (in a very complicated way) is that we only have the family's (and also those groups interested in pushing their own agenda) words that she is being taken care at an unknown facility, nobody has seen her or has proof that this child's body is still kept with a ventilator, if they already have a death certificate, do they need to report her second death?

god, i am awful!!!


lupus est homini , non , non quom qualis sit novit

 

[sayd]

This sort of reminds me of when you chop a snake's head off, and the thing continues to move for hours. I guess that sounds really bad. But it is what it reminds me of.

 

[K_Z]

Jahi’s young sister will be getting a fifth grade graduation certificate in the same ceremony, so the diploma will either be collected by her or Jahi’s mother, Sealey said. The entire family plans to attend.

More at SFBay: http://sfbay.ca/2014/06/12/jahi-mcmath-to-receive-8th-grade-diploma/#ixzz34UOvdiV2

Fifth grade graduation?? I wonder if this is a unique tradition for this charter school, or do all schools in California hold "graduation" ceremonies for 5th and 8th grade? Do they have "graduation" every grade level? Unusual. I've not heard of this anywhere I've lived.

At any rate, it sounds like it will be an interesting event, with "the whole family" of Jahi and her sister in attendance.

I'm still very sad and irritated on behalf of the OTHER families, that THIS family had to make a big scene and media splash about this. They couldn't just quietly attend, and support their 5th grader in a dignified manner? They HAD to exploit the celebration of the 5th grader?? SMH. Sick.

Because now I'm feeling very bad for the 5th grader, who should have had HER special day with her family. And probably hasn't seen her mom in person for months. But instead, the uncle publicly blackmails and extorts the admin into making it about Jahi. Gosh, I really feel bad for the other kids in the family. They are as exploited as Jahi's memory is, IMO.

 

[katydid23]

More at SFBay: http://sfbay.ca/2014/06/12/jahi-mcmath-to-receive-8th-grade-diploma/#ixzz34UOvdiV2

Fifth grade graduation?? I wonder if this is a unique tradition for this charter school, or do all schools in California hold "graduation" ceremonies for 5th and 8th grade? Do they have "graduation" every grade level? Unusual. I've not heard of this anywhere I've lived.

At any rate, it sounds like it will be an interesting event, with "the whole family" of Jahi and her sister in attendance.

I'm still very sad and irritated on behalf of the OTHER families, that THIS family had to make a big scene and media splash about this. They couldn't just quietly attend, and support their 5th grader in a dignified manner? They HAD to exploit the celebration of the 5th grader?? SMH. Sick.

Because now I'm feeling very bad for the 5th grader, who should have had HER special day with her family. And probably hasn't seen her mom in person for months. But instead, the uncle publicly blackmails and extorts the admin into making it about Jahi. Gosh, I really feel bad for the other kids in the family. They are as exploited as Jahi's memory is, IMO.

I think the school has 1st thru 5th, as elementary, and then 6 through 8th as middle school. So there would be a graduation for 5th and 8th graders.

I agree that the 5th grader, who has already sacrificed so much this year, should have had this limelight and this attention. This whole thing is getting so out of control.

 

[wendiesan]

I wanted to add one more thought.

I no longer think Jahi's body will have an autopsy-- and I do think the body is being maintained somewhere outside of California.

When the heart finally stops, I'm predicting that they will rapidly have her body cremated, preventing any medical examination of her body for what has happened in the time after she was declared brain dead. That will leave the litigation to be based on records from CHO, and leave "the rest" to be their word only.

And they will claim to the media that the rapid cremation was in accordance with their religious "beliefs". IMO.

No way will this family allow Jahi's body to undergo autopsy, IMO. It would be too damaging to their position, and their eventual litigation as plaintiffs. JMO.

my bold

Way back in the first thread we were discussing what role the grandmother, mother, and step-father may have had in Jahi's death. IIRC, there was a consensus of opinion that an autopsy would likely reveal what had caused the bleeding, and that the cause could possbily be tied to what was done by the family in the ICU. As time went on, again IIRC, posters agreed that the injuries might begin to heal when Jahi was on the ventilator, and the longer she was on the ventilator, the less obvious the injury would become.

So now I'm wondering whether the lawyers at BCHO might have been able to have had documentation of the condition of Jahi's throat kept on file. For instance, could there have been still images or videos made of the area either before or during process of determining whether or not brain death had occurred? If so, would these images, if supported by other evidence such as the nurses' notes, accepted as evidence in court?

 

[Frigga]

When will a reporter press for more details, photos, video or proof... ask tough, probing, reality based questions? Will they? Will someone who holds influence (even if only financial) with these people request or demand answers?

 

[K_Z]

my bold

Way back in the first thread we were discussing what role the grandmother, mother, and step-father may have had in Jahi's death. IIRC, there was a consensus of opinion that an autopsy would likely reveal what had caused the bleeding, and that the cause could possbily be tied to what was done by the family in the ICU. As time went on, again IIRC, posters agreed that the injuries might begin to heal when Jahi was on the ventilator, and the longer she was on the ventilator, the less obvious the injury would become.

So now I'm wondering whether the lawyers at BCHO might have been able to have had documentation of the condition of Jahi's throat kept on file. For instance, could there have been still images or videos made of the area either before or during process of determining whether or not brain death had occurred? If so, would these images, if supported by other evidence such as the nurses' notes, accepted as evidence in court?

Well, I can't speak for what CHO may have taken pics of back in December. But I can say that I work with all different specialties of surgeons who frequently take pics of whatever they did or discovered while in the OR. Both to show the patient and family, and to provide medicolegal CYA.

These pics are entered into the medical record. I would think they can be authenticated for date and time, as well as patient, for court purposes.

For example, a general surgeon or GYN doc might take pics of the completed tubal interruption/ ligation procedure (whether clips, bands, or incision with a chunk of tube removed and both ends sutured). General surgeons regularly take lots of pics when doing laparoscopic procedures, since it's so easy to snap a pic. Same with colonoscopies. Any time there is a worry about hemostasis, they snap a pic to show how "dry" the area was at closing. (As well as to brag about their gorgeous surgical results, lol!) ENT surgeons certainly have the ability to snap pics, both with regular cameras, as well as using fiberoptic cameras. I've worked with a few who like to snap pics of the "char" on the tonsils, but most don't.

In the ICU, in the midst of a code, I'm doubtful that taking photos would be a priority. (Unless done after all was stable, and there was something REALLY odd to photograph.)

I think it would be extremely difficult to "prove" in court that relatives caused the bleeding that lead to Jahi's death, EVEN if they were witnessed suctioning her. There is just so very much that can go wrong in a complex ENT procedure like hers-- so many arteries close by, etc, that pinning it on "one' person or another would be hard. Especially if she was "dry" when leaving OR and PACU. I am very reluctant to "blame" the surgeons. ENT wants them DRY when they leave OR and PACU. Believe me, they hate to have to re-operate as much or more than anesthesia does, with throat cases.

ETA: One thing I'm positive they have lots of images of are the images that demonstrate no blood flow to the brain, and complete brain and brain stem death. I think there is absolutely zero chance they got that "wrong".

ETA: One more thought. Autopsy or no autopsy, I still think it would be difficult to impossible to establish with certainty "who" caused the bleeding now 7 months out (if indeed someone is responsible). AND-- if it was indeed "bleeding" that caused her cardiac arrest, and not something like a sustained laryngospasm. We just have NO IDEA what actually caused her cardiac arrest and death, except for the family's side of things (which I do not trust as accurate medical information.) So, my comment above about my opinion that the family will do all they can to prevent an autopsy when the time comes, is based on my thoughts that they will want to take extreme "face saving" measures to conceal Jahi's actual brain death, and the condition of her body, and the cellular remnants of her brain, at the time of asystole (heart stop). They are VERY invested in furthering the message that she is "alive" and "improving" and "responding to voice commands." The truth of what has happened inside her skull, and to her whole body, is something I feel they will make herculean efforts to conceal for the rest of their lives.

 

[popsicle]

Let me get this straight. According to Uncle, he is able to communicate with his niece, and she responds to his voice commands, and can move her body, physically. And yet, he has not visited her in awhile? :waitasec:

If she were truly making such a miraculous recovery, wouldn't he want to go visit her?

I am surprised he hasn't said he skype's with her.

 

[ArianeEmory]

BBM I would have never said this before today, but I'm going to now- PROVE IT. Put your money where your mouth is and show the world this wonderful miracle- otherwise, IMOO, shut the hell up.

WHY WOULDN"T YOU WANT OTHERS TO SEE HER MOVING TO COMMANDS?

One reason, and one reason only - it. isn't. true.

I have had enough of these lies.

This is why this case affects me so much. It's a touchstone for why critical thinking skills are so important, and why we really, really need people to be invested in them, not magical thinking, for the good of the species and for our civilization.

The family is playing a game that is transparent to anyone who sits down and thinks about points like the above, but which is probably easily explained away ("it's for Jahi's privacy") by the people involved who value faith over medicine or science. But because this is playing out on the stage of public media (by the family's choice and manipulation), 'faith' is going to lose, sooner or later.

I just hope that fact wins at least some people over to the side of critical thinking.

 

[Quester]

http://photos.mercurynews.com/2014/...e-c-reems-graduation-ceremonies-in-oakland/#5

About 15 photos beginning here:
http://photos.mercurynews.com/2014/...e-c-reems-graduation-ceremonies-in-oakland/#1