• #21
tipper said:
So you'd agree BlueCrab should also have been taken to task for claiming " Burke's voice is on the final four seconds of that 911 tape."
This is the standard double-standard around here. At least my posts I always point out that it is my opinion only. Really, all we have here are opinions, as we are not privileged to the so-called 'historic facts' that others 'claim' to exist.
 
  • #22
Holdontoyourhat said:
This is the standard double-standard around here. At least my posts I always point out that it is my opinion only. Really, all we have here are opinions, as we are not privileged to the so-called 'historic facts' that others 'claim' to exist.
You did not state that it was your opinion in the post I addressed. You simply stated that Burke's voice was not on the tape. If you had, I would have had no issue.

Not sure what you mean by not privileged to historic facts. Historic facts are there for all of us to enjoy.
 
  • #23
I think the thing that amazes me the most is that Burke has been able to keep this secret for so long. His parents must have scared the heck out of him by telling him if he ever tells what he knows he will burn in hell or he'll never see his mom and dad again or something like that. I think back to when I was a child. I wasn't good with keeping secrets.
I would love for Burke to get hypnotized and tell what he knows.
 
  • #24
Also, I would love to know what the Ramsey children, JAR and Melinda really think. I think I would have questioned my parents until I was blue in the face if
something like this happened in my family.
 
  • #25
Jayelles said:
You did not state that it was your opinion in the post I addressed. You simply stated that Burke's voice was not on the tape. If you had, I would have had no issue.

Not sure what you mean by not privileged to historic facts. Historic facts are there for all of us to enjoy.
Not sure what you mean by 'historic fact'. If you think BR being on the 911 tape is a 'historic fact', thats really closer to the quagmire of murky opinion. Maybe you could clarify what you think a 'historic fact' is? I mean, so we all could 'enjoy' it.
 
  • #26
Holdontoyourhat said:
Not sure what you mean by 'historic fact'. If you think BR being on the 911 tape is a 'historic fact', thats really closer to the quagmire of murky opinion. Maybe you could clarify what you think a 'historic fact' is? I mean, so we all could 'enjoy' it.
Perhaps you didn't read my post. Let me repeat the part where I used the phrase 'historic fact':-

Bluecrab's claims are based upon historical fact - i.e. that several people heard the tape and agreed that there was a third voice which sounded like a young child.
That several people heard the enhanced tape and agreed that there was a third voice which sounded like a young child IS NOT IN DISPUTE. It is a historic fact. These people DID hear the tape and it is a matter of record that they said there was a third voice which they said sounded like a child.

No matter how this is spun or however some posters may try to argue semantics or blow smoke around what was said - it does not change that fact.
 
  • #27
ellen13 said:
I would love for Burke to get hypnotized and tell what he knows.


ellen13,

I think Burke has already told everything, or most of everything, he knows. He was questioned by the grand jury for over five hours and only a fraction of the information from those five hours of testimony has leaked its way out into the public (despite numerous denials by his parents, Burke admitted to the jurors he owned Hi-Tec hiking boots, and that info slipped out in the Atlanta interviews of 2000).

BlueCrab
 
  • #28
Jayelles said:
Perhaps you didn't read my post. Let me repeat the part where I used the phrase 'historic fact':-


That several people heard the enhanced tape and agreed that there was a third voice which sounded like a young child IS NOT IN DISPUTE. It is a historic fact. These people DID hear the tape and it is a matter of record that they said there was a third voice which they said sounded like a child.

No matter how this is spun or however some posters may try to argue semantics or blow smoke around what was said - it does not change that fact.
Well, yes and no. We have a record of ST saying what they heard. (Not forgetting Bonita who we know is dishonest. I think the source is the same.) This came up a while back and I don't think a direct quote from anyone other than ST was ever found. We also have an unknown person in PMPT who was at the big presentation saying "If you could be sure it was a voice." p666 So there does seem to be some dispute.

It would be nice if Hickman would settle this and give an interview but I can't blame her for not wanting to talk about possible evidence (to either confirm or deny ) simply to satisfy public curiosity.
 
  • #29
tipper said:
Well, yes and no. We have a record of ST saying what they heard. (Not forgetting Bonita who we know is dishonest. I think the source is the same.) This came up a while back and I don't think a direct quote from anyone other than ST was ever found. We also have an unknown person in PMPT who was at the big presentation saying "If you could be sure it was a voice." p666 So there does seem to be some dispute.

It would be nice if Hickman would settle this and give an interview but I can't blame her for not wanting to talk about possible evidence (to either confirm or deny ) simply to satisfy public curiosity.
And we have Steve Thomas under oath in his deposition... and we have Aerospace making a statement to say they stand by their work.

Why do you say Bonita is dishonest? Is it known that she edited files?
 
  • #30
Jayelles said:
And we have Steve Thomas under oath in his deposition... and we have Aerospace making a statement to say they stand by their work.

Why do you say Bonita is dishonest? Is it known that she edited files?


Jayelles,

Bonita violated the trust of her position in Larry Posner's law firm. She stole the confidential Ramsey police reports stored there, copied them, and returned them -- with the intent of using the information to write a book to make money. That would probably be considered dishonest by most people, even though she was never charged with anything. (The notes are now known as "The Bonita Papers" and were sold to the tabs by persons unknown, and were the source for many of the tabs expose stories.)

BlueCrab
 
  • #31
Jayelles said:
And we have Steve Thomas under oath in his deposition... and we have Aerospace making a statement to say they stand by their work.

Why do you say Bonita is dishonest? Is it known that she edited files?
Standing by your work is not the same as verifying what's on the tape.

I don't know whether Bonita Sauer edited the files she stole from Larry Pozner. There are errors in what she wrote.

Would you hire her to have access to confidential information? I think if you steal from your employer you qualify as dishonest.

My recollection is ST is quite vague in his deposition about exactly what words are said. I'll have to re-read it but my impression was he didn't do much verifying or confirming of what he put in his book and his deposition contains a lot of caveats and "that's what I heard from so-and-so."
 
  • #32
BlueCrab said:
Jayelles,

Bonita violated the trust of her position in Larry Posner's law firm. She stole the confidential Ramsey police reports stored there, copied them, and returned them -- with the intent of using the information to write a book to make money. That would probably be considered dishonest by most people, even though she was never charged with anything. (The notes are now known as "The Bonita Papers" and were sold to the tabs by persons unknown, and were the source for many of the tabs expose stories.)

BlueCrab
OK, so she's a thief - but is there evidence that she has falsified any of the documents she stole? They are two different kinds of crimes. If there was evidence that she altered or falsified anything, then I wouls absolutely agree with you.

I take everything that Susan Bennett says with a pinch of salt - not because she sold documents to the tabloids (and cashed in a significant amount) but because there is documented proof that she lies and misrepresents facts.

Tell me why we should mistrust what is written in the Bonita papers. Show us where Bonita has misrepresented the facts of the Ramsey case.
 
  • #33
tipper said:
Standing by your work is not the same as verifying what's on the tape.
So if Lou Smit says he stands by his work in the Ramsey case, you will not take that to mean that he is verifying what we know to be his theory?


I don't know whether Bonita Sauer edited the files she stole from Larry Pozner. There are errors in what she wrote.
jameson says there are errors in the NE tanscripts.

Would you hire her to have access to confidential information? I think if you steal from your employer you qualify as dishonest.
No of course not, but my concern would be that she would expose the contents of the documents - not that she would alter them.

My recollection is ST is quite vague in his deposition about exactly what words are said. I'll have to re-read it but my impression was he didn't do much verifying or confirming of what he put in his book and his deposition contains a lot of caveats and "that's what I heard from so-and-so."
No you are right that he was vague - Lin Wood didn't ask him any questions whose answers might be damning to his clients. As in the Stratbucker deposition, Lin Wood focused on questions about the deposee's actions and affiliations - not case evidence.
 
  • #34
In reading through what she wrote I made this collection of possible errors. I haven't done research on any of it but they were things that caught my eye as being at odds with my recollections. I've highlighted the bits that seemed wrong.
____________________


When not talking to an officer, John stayed by himself, and strangely, there was no interaction with Patsy. The victim advocates who had remained at Patsy's side assumed that John and Patsy were either divorced or estranged, because of the lack of communication between the two of them that morning. John seemed to pace the floor nervously in the area between the dining room and den, but ran to answer the phone every time it rang. Arndt observed that when John did sit down, one of his legs bounced up and down in nervous spasms.
…………

Soon the only police official remaining was Detective Arndt, along with John and Patsy and the family friends. T hen even John left to pick up the family's mail, and was gone approximately an hour and 20 minutes. When John returned Detective Arndt noted that he sat in the kitchen and opened the mail. John still remained in a room by himself not making contact with Patsy or any of the friends who stayed to console the family.
…
At 8:30 a.m. on the morning of December 26, unaware of the tragedy in Boulder, Melinda, John Andrew and Stewart Long had taken a private jet from Atlanta to Minneapolis in anticipation of meeting the rest of the Ramsey family to continue on to Charlevoix for the family holiday. Once in Minneapolis, they were contacted and told of the apparent kidnapping. Arrangements were made to fly them immediately to Denver.
…
Then examining the contents of the stomach and intestines, Dr. Meyer found the substance in the stomach was unidentifiable, but chunky matter, appearing to be pineapple, was found in the small intestine. Dr. Meyer noted for the record that food found in the intestines would have been consumed approximately two hours prior.
…
The next morning, the family and close friends flew to Marietta, Georgia.
John's Cessna, flown by Mike Archuletta, family friend and personal pilot, carried friends Priscilla, Barbara, Jay Elowsky, Pinque Barber, and the mother of Burke's closest school friend. The immediate family and Burke's schoolmate rode in a corporate jet, piloted by John and carrying the casket with JonBenet for her final trip home to Georgia. Little Miss
Colorado, dressed in her white sequined pageant gown and jeweled
…
In an apparent attempt to ward off the focus on themselves, John and Patsy, who had now become evasive and uncooperative with the Boulder police, scheduled an appearance on a national t.v. news program, CNN, to show their grief to the public and thank everyone for the prayers and kindness since the death of JonBenet.
…
Within days of the funeral, lines began forming separating those who continued to support the Ramseys and the former friends. One of the families placed on the side opposite John and Patsy was the family of Fleet and Priscilla White. A confrontation had occurred between Fleet and John's brother, Jeff Ramsey, on December 31 the day after the funeral and the Whites were asked to leave the Paugh home where they had been staying and move to a hotel. When contacted by the Boulder detectives, the Whites denied that such an incident had occurred. However, in the interview with Westmoreland who had been present during the incident, he told the detectives that Fleet was upset with the involvement of the Ramsey’s, attorneys in the investigation and their lack of cooperation with the police department. Fleet started an argument with Jeff at Westmoreland's home, went to the home of Jeff Ramsey to continue the argument, and then ended up at the Paugh residence still arguing. Westmoreland was concerned enough with the heat of the verbal exchange that he contacted the Boulder detectives to ask that someone respond to the Pauqh residence. Soon after this incident, John Ramsey told the Boulder police that in his opinion Fleet White was a prime suspect in the murder.
…

[I think this whole paragraph is at odds with PMPT orST]
When left alone with the psychologist, Burke appeared to be at ease and even told the doctor that be felt safe, even though he did say that he had not wanted to come that day! Dr. Bernhard thought it was unusual for this child to feel safe. "People in this entire town didn't feel safe with the concept that there was someone running around that could be snatching children, and this was his own sister and happened in his own home. Generally speaking, a child who goes through this kind of trauma, where a sibling or a family member has been killed, they don’t feel safe.
…
Social Services had previously provided Dr. Bernhard with some history on Burke which indicated an ongoing bedwetting problem, but Burke denied this saying that it happened a long time ago. Children are usually honest about this in interviews, and Dr. Bernhard wondered why Burke was not.
…
In addition to Patsy, John and Burke, over 50 persons had submitted handwriting samples. After analysis,none of these persons are indicated to be the author of the ransom note.

…
At her first meeting with the three engineers, Hickman was told that it appeared that the cassette had been recorded in a Dictaphone format which would require a special recorder to recopy. Hickman drove to the nearest Dictaphone company which was located in the San Fernando Valley. A Dictaphone technician examined the tape and told Hickman that the information was not recorded in Dictaphone format. Hickman, feeling the frustration of the proverbial goose chase, returned to her hotel.

That evening, Roeder called her at the hotel and asked her to return to Aerospace. Roeder had decided that the tape probably had been recorded on a regular format which could be copied digitally by their computer. A hard drive disk was made of the tape, and this disk was copied to a JAZ drive, a large disk with more memory than a standard floppy disk.

On the morning of April 22, Hickman met again with Roeder in his office at Aerospace. The detective and the engineer went to a small lab to work with the disk to try to filter out extraneous noise and enhance the voices in the background. Roeder made several variations using different noise reduction settings, and those recordings were then copied onto the JAZ drive. They returned to Roeder's office where they were able to further enhance the disk. With this latest enhancement, they were able to hear two voices on the tape one of which sounded like a juvenile male, and the second one appeared to be Patsy. The first words seemed to belong to the juvenile, and then Patsy is heard to say, "Help me Jesus, help me Jesus." The voice again appeared to be the "juvenile male saying, "Please, what do I do?'' Hickman and Roeder agreed to meet again in the morning to continue enhancing the tape.

When Hickman returned to Aerospace the next morning to meet with Roeder, he said that he had continued listening to the disk after Hickman had left for the evening. He and another engineer had played the original version of the 911 call that had been transferred to the JAZ drive and found that to be the clearest recording. Both engineers had heard three distinct voices on the tape and written down that they thought was being said. The tape
was then played for Hickman. After listening to the tape three or four times, Hickman heard John Ramsey say “We’re not speaking to you”. In what sounded like a very angry voice. Patsy then says, “Help me Jesus, help me Jesus,” and finally Burke is clearly heard to say, “ Well, what did you find?”, with an emphasis on the word “did.” After Hickman told the engineers her impression of the conversation, Roeder handed her a piece of notepaper containing the conversation heard by himself and his fellow engineer – the conversation as written down was exactly as Hickman herself had just heard.

…

Coroner Meyer had noted in his autopsy examination that the food found in JonBenet's intestine would have been consumed approximately two hours prior death.
….
Patsy said she left on the white long sleeved knit top worn to the party, contrary to her statement on the morning of December 26 that she had changed JonBenet into a red turtle neck shirt.
…
She also distinctly remembered that when Burke hugged her before leaving the residence with Fleet, which differed from Fleet’s statement that Burke did not even see Patsy before they left. Patsy then mentioned that she had her
…
Pubic hairs from Patsy Boulder Community Hospital 2/13
On December 29, John and Patsy, accompanied by their attorneys appeared at Boulder community hospital to give hair and blood samples and be fingerprinted. As she was being fingerprinted, Patsy became hysterical Saying, "Why are you doing this? Do think I killed my baby?"
..
Interview of Dr. Beuf pediatrician 3/25 JonBenet had over 33 visits to the pediatrician in the last two years diagnosis was "yeast infections". I
 
  • #35
Jayelles said:
So if Lou Smit says he stands by his work in the Ramsey case, you will not take that to mean that he is verifying what we know to be his theory?


jameson says there are errors in the NE tanscripts.

.
Lou Smit has said specifically what evidence he has (I don't know if he has additional unpublished information) So if he "stands by it" I know what he is referring to i.e. photos, DNA, handwriting etc. and how it fits in his theory.

Aerospace hasn't said anything about what words are on the tape. So what are they "standing by?" I think they stand by the quality of their work not the content of the tape. No reputable company is going to get involved in discussing and debating evidence.

I expect Tricia's Mr. Ginsberg stands by his work too. But in his case we know what he says he found.

I think the 911 call is extremely important and if Burke and John were proven to be on it I would seriously rethink my belief that the Ramseys are innocent. It doesn't matter if Burke was up. But I can't think of any benign reason for them to all lie about it from the start.

I would love to have a clear list of ALL the errors. Schiller, ST, NE, Bonita.
 
  • #36
tipper said:
Lou Smit has said specifically what evidence he has (I don't know if he has additional unpublished information) So if he "stands by it" I know what he is referring to i.e. photos, DNA, handwriting etc. and how it fits in his theory.

Aerospace hasn't said anything about what words are on the tape. So what are they "standing by?" I think they stand by the quality of their work not the content of the tape. No reputable company is going to get involved in discussing and debating evidence.

I expect Tricia's Mr. Ginsberg stands by his work too. But in his case we know what he says he found.

I think the 911 call is extremely important and if Burke and John were proven to be on it I would seriously rethink my belief that the Ramseys are innocent. It doesn't matter if Burke was up. But I can't think of any benign reason for them to all lie about it from the start.

I would love to have a clear list of ALL the errors. Schiller, ST, NE, Bonita.
I think we do know what Aerospace stand by as it has been highly publicised.

The bottom line is that ST described the Aerospace findings in his book and the people involved in it. Not one of them has come forward to dispute that.

As far as I am concerned, the matter of the 911 tape is unresolved. I "stand by" my opinion that none of us are in any position to make a judgement about this until we have heard the enhanced tape.
 
  • #37
Jayelles said:
[...]
As far as I am concerned, the matter of the 911 tape is unresolved. I "stand by" my opinion that none of us are in any position to make a judgement about this until we have heard the enhanced tape.
I agree.
 
  • #38
BlueCrab said:
aussiesheila,

Burke's voice is on the final four seconds of that 911 tape. The enhancement of those four seconds wasn't a matter of just increasing the volume; it was a matter of filtering out other noises in the room but leaving the faint voices still able to be heard. For instance, the noise from a furnace blower running, or a refrigerator running, would have to be filtered out or else they would overpower the faint voices in the background. Only professionals using state-of-the-art equipment would be able to satisfactorily accomplish this. Aerospace Corporation accomplished it.

BlueCrab
I understand all that BlueCrab, but I can't see how even refrigerator noises would overpower human voices in the same room to such an extent, that only Aerospace Corporation equipment was up to the task of dampening down the extraneous noises to allow Burke's voice to be detected.

What I am saying is that if Burke was still in the same room even if his voice came from well away from the telephone, that any competent backyard sound technician could have enhanced the tape such that Burke's speech could have been made audible.

The fact that BPD had to resort to the deep space tracking systems of Aerospace Corporation to enhance the voice on the final four seconds of that 911 tape, suggests to me that what was enhanced was just as Sissi described - erased voices from a previously used 911 tape.
 

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