Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey #2

[docyabut]

Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey

It’s been 28 years since the case captivated the county.

www.wsbtv.com

 

[Knitty]

Please continue here.

 

[CloudedTruth]

There is another thing to consider that backs up this theory.

Meyer notes "small" internal hemorrhages from a blow to the head that was sufficient to crack open her skull--yet not her scalp.

MOO, but the only way a blow of that magnitude would not result in massive brain bleed is if she was already dead or dead almost immediately after. As long as the heart is beating, it will pump blood. But once the heart stops, bleeding stops. Dead bodies don't bleed.

So I think Meyer's autopsy backs up what he likely said to Woodward.

#1 I think it's highly unlikely that Dr. Meyer would discuss the head wound with a reporter. He purposely has remained silent throughout the years, and also purposely did not include opinions in the official autopsy report. He has never confirmed the statement that Paula Woodward attributed to him, nor has he answered questions about it. His silence over the years and refraining from doing interviews with the media or making public statements to me speaks volumes. Ms. Woodward's outward bias in the case is well known, and she has allowed misinformation and incorrect information to be published.

#2 Dr. Meyer proceeded to seek out other medical experts to examine all the autopsy materials in order to help answer some of the questions that he could not as well as to confirm other findings to ensure as much accuracy as possible. As a result, there were experts from different fields brought in to examine the findings. One of those experts was Dr. Lucy Rorke, a well known and renowned pediatric neuropathologist whom he brought in specifically to examine the head wound and brain. In addition to working full time as a pediatric neuropathologist Dr. Rorke spent 8 hours a day in that capacity at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia as well as 4 hours a day working in the office of the medical examiner. She also became an expert in shaken baby syndrome which may have relevance to this case. Her findings in the Ramsey case were that the blow to the head came first, with an estimated period of at least 45 minutes until the strangulation occurred. This information has been confirmed by a few who were privy to her report and aware of her GJ testimony. There was additional bleeding than the oft repeated "only 7-8 cc's" specific to one area only that Dr. Rorke notes as part of her conclusions.

#3 Dr. Meyer's education includes an internship in internal medicine, but his main focus in his education and career has been pathology. As such, it is understandable and appropriate that especially in a case such as the Ramsey case in which to this day there are so many remaining unanswered questions, that he would seek out the opinions of experts who have specialized in areas that he has limited knowledge of. In the chart I posted previously, of the noted experts who weighed in 17 out of 20 determined that the head blow preceded the strangulation.

 

[CrimeTheorist]

Did the paintbrush have to be broken? Could it not have been used for the torturing device without having to break it? It just seems like a risky move to break something and potentially wake up a family member from the noise if they didn't have to.

 

[GRT]

Did the paintbrush have to be broken? Could it not have been used for the torturing device without having to break it? It just seems like a risky move to break something and potentially wake up a family member from the noise if they didn't have to.

Good question.

I think both ways would work if the brush wasn't too long.

I agree with @Ponytale that BR could probably have broken the brush if he had put it on a step at an angle and stomped on it. But that might have resulted in a brush broken in the middle rather than both ends snapped off. I'm thinking of it as similar to breaking a pencil.

If the killer broke it to intentionally reduce its length, that sounds more like an adult who was familiar with that the weapon could do--tweaking it to his taste.

I don't know if a child, and BR was a pretty small child for his age, would be thinking along those lines and able to pull it off almost simultaneously with the strangling.

All MOO

 

[Ponytale]

Did the paintbrush have to be broken? Could it not have been used for the torturing device without having to break it? It just seems like a risky move to break something and potentially wake up a family member from the noise if they didn't have to.

Or, the paintbrush was already broken.
The question is, why was any paintbrush needed at all?
There is no purpose for the paintbrush being there. They could have strangled her with any rope without anything additional added. Or could have done it just by using their hands. I see two possibilities - the device was constructed before (like for practicing making knots), or the paintbrush was added there with the purpose to make the scene look more gruesome.

 

[GRT]

If, in fact, the blow to the head and the strangulation were almost simultaneous, it leads me to believe a strong adult might have been twisting the garrote tightly -- and when she didn't die right away -- held the twisted garrote in one hand and smacked her in the head with a flashlight or other hard object hard enough to fracture her skull.

Dr. Doberson, who consulted later, backed up Meyer's conclusion about the two happening very close together.

1 2 3 4 -- Individual pages from Doberson's report.

 

[ShadyLady]

If, in fact, the blow to the head and the strangulation were almost simultaneous, it leads me to believe a strong adult might have been twisting the garrote tightly -- and when she didn't die right away -- held the twisted garrote in one hand and smacked her in the head with a flashlight or other hard object hard enough to fracture her skull.

Dr. Doberson, who consulted later, backed up Meyer's conclusion about the two happening very close together.

1 2 3 4 -- Individual pages from Doberson's report.

Not sure twisting the end with the brush would do anything. But pulling on it would tighten around a neck, choking.

 

[CloudedTruth]

If, in fact, the blow to the head and the strangulation were almost simultaneous, it leads me to believe a strong adult might have been twisting the garrote tightly -- and when she didn't die right away -- held the twisted garrote in one hand and smacked her in the head with a flashlight or other hard object hard enough to fracture her skull.

Dr. Doberson, who consulted later, backed up Meyer's conclusion about the two happening very close together.

1 2 3 4 -- Individual pages from Doberson's report.

Yes, Doberson was one out of three who said that the strangulation came first. 17 others concluded it was the opposite.

And again, we do not know that Meyer concluded that the two events were almost simultaneous. He did not include that opinion in the autopsy report, nor has he given that opinion publicly. He was unable to determine which occurred first and how much time elapsed between. This is why he consulted Dr. Rorke. She determined the head blow came first, followed by strangulation 45 minutes up to 2 hours after. 17 out of 20 experts agreed with her determination.

I also note that Dr. Doberson fails to mention an additional area of bleeding that was evident in the autopsy report as noted by Dr. Meyer. That is a significant omission of factual forensic evidence.

He also weighs in on the hymenal injuries and says that "irregularities of the hymenal ring cannot be reliably used to indicate chronic abuse". SA was not his specialty and he is apparently unaware of the extensive research and work in this area done by Dr. John McCann, whom Dr. Meyer asked to consult specific to that. He is techniques are much more extensive that just examining the hymenal ring. His research has resulted in major developments in recognizing SA in prepubescent children in particular. He and his colleagues did in fact find evidence of chronic abuse in this case, which was also agreed upon by the majority of experts who consulted.

It should also be noted that Dr. Doberson was hired by Team Ramsey. I find it interesting that his comments on the brain and cranial injuries are so minimal. And that he omits one of the bleed areas entirely. His main focus seemed to be the stun gun. I do not find his report particularly enlightening or substantial to the investigation.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Or, the paintbrush was already broken.
The question is, why was any paintbrush needed at all?
There is no purpose for the paintbrush being there. They could have strangled her with any rope without anything additional added. Or could have done it just by using their hands. I see two possibilities - the device was constructed before (like for practicing making knots), or the paintbrush was added there with the purpose to make the scene look more gruesome.

Exactly! And why the end of the paintbrush to commit SA when there were others with a full handle that would have been easier to manipulate for the SA. What am I missing?

 

[Val1943]

Recent developments:

• A new DNA technique found genetic traces of an unidentified male on clothing worn by JonBenet, clearing her family of suspicion
  
  
• The Boulder Police Department is following up on tips that have come in recently
  
  
• A multi-disciplinary team of experts is using modern scientific and cold case techniques to review the evidence
  
  
• The FBI's Denver office is continuing to work with local and state partners on the investigation

 

[Val1943]

A new DNA technique found genetic traces of an unidentified male on clothing worn by JonBenet, clearing her family of suspicion

The FBI will find the one killer weather he`s dead or alive

 

[Deleted member 187229]

Exactly! And why the end of the paintbrush to commit SA when there were others with a full handle that would have been easier to manipulate for the SA. What am I missing?

It must have been for sadistic pleasure and not sexual. I think he likes being cruel and hurting his victims.this is part of the reason I think it was an intruder. Would parents inflict this type of painful injury during a so called staged scene? She was alive and bled when the SA occurred. The accusation has always been the

There is another thing to consider that backs up this theory.

Meyer notes "small" internal hemorrhages from a blow to the head that was sufficient to crack open her skull--yet not her scalp.

MOO, but the only way a blow of that magnitude would not result in massive brain bleed is if she was already dead or dead almost immediately after. As long as the heart is beating, it will pump blood. But once the heart stops, bleeding stops. Dead bodies don't bleed.

So I think Meyer's autopsy backs up what he likely said to Woodward.

#1 I think it's highly unlikely that Dr. Meyer would discuss the head wound with a reporter. He purposely has remained silent throughout the years, and also purposely did not include opinions in the official autopsy report. He has never confirmed the statement that Paula Woodward attributed to him, nor has he answered questions about it. His silence over the years and refraining from doing interviews with the media or making public statements to me speaks volumes. Ms. Woodward's outward bias in the case is well known, and she has allowed misinformation and incorrect information to be published.

#2 Dr. Meyer proceeded to seek out other medical experts to examine all the autopsy materials in order to help answer some of the questions that he could not as well as to confirm other findings to ensure as much accuracy as possible. As a result, there were experts from different fields brought in to examine the findings. One of those experts was Dr. Lucy Rorke, a well known and renowned pediatric neuropathologist whom he brought in specifically to examine the head wound and brain. In addition to working full time as a pediatric neuropathologist Dr. Rorke spent 8 hours a day in that capacity at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia as well as 4 hours a day working in the office of the medical examiner. She also became an expert in shaken baby syndrome which may have relevance to this case. Her findings in the Ramsey case were that the blow to the head came first, with an estimated period of at least 45 minutes until the strangulation occurred. This information has been confirmed by a few who were privy to her report and aware of her GJ testimony. There was additional bleeding than the oft repeated "only 7-8 cc's" specific to one area only that Dr. Rorke notes as part of her conclusions.

#3 Dr. Meyer's education includes an internship in internal medicine, but his main focus in his education and career has been pathology. As such, it is understandable and appropriate that especially in a case such as the Ramsey case in which to this day there are so many remaining unanswered questions, that he would seek out the opinions of experts who have specialized in areas that he has limited knowledge of. In the chart I posted previously, of the noted experts who weighed in 17 out of 20 determined that the head blow preceded the strangulation.

The reason why there was no visible injury on the outside of her scalp is because she was strangled first. Dr meyer said both injuries strangulation and blow to the head happened almost simultaneously. It’s been explained on a podcast on YouTube by a doctor that when a person is being strangled, the heart stops pumping blood to the skin and starts pumping more blood to the brain to get more oxygen to the brain. Hence no injury to the scalp.
Here’s the podcast. They start talking about it at 47:32

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

A new DNA technique found genetic traces of an unidentified male on clothing worn by JonBenet, clearing her family of suspicion

The FBI will find the one killer weather he`s dead or alive

Well we do know one possibility is definitely deceased.

 

[GRT]

The accusation has always been the reason why there was no visible injury on the outside of her scalp is because she was strangled first. Dr meyer said both injuries strangulation and blow to the head happened almost simultaneously. It’s been explained on a podcast on YouTube by a doctor that when a person is being strangled, the heart stops pumping blood to the skin and starts pumping more blood to the brain to get more oxygen to the brain. Hence no injury to the scalp.
Here’s the podcast. They start talking about it at 47:32

RSBM for focus...

Thank you for sharing that podcast! I think this medical expert and Meyer are both on-point!

It's fascinating how the body works, and I'm glad to have it explained in depth to me. Great find!

If it happened this way -- and this makes more sense than anything else we've heard -- it pretty much rules out Burke because he was small for his age, and it's highly unlikely he could have done anything close to strangling JBR with one hand while delivering a fatal blow.

And, if we take BR out of the equation, it also removes all theories that focus on a parental coverup of their son.

 

[GRT]

Well we do know one possibility is definitely deceased.

Michael Helgoth?

 

[Val1943]

Michael Helgoth?

But authorities told The Post that Helgoth was never a serious suspect, and his DNA did not match any that was collected at the murder scene.

Who killed JonBenét Ramsey? Cops have investigated these suspects: ‘nothing’s off the table’

From the Ramsey family to pedophiles John Mark Karr and Gary Oliva — Boulder police have investigated numerous suspects in the beauty queen’s 1996 murder and made no arrests.

nypost.com

 

[CloudedTruth]

RSBM for focus...

Thank you for sharing that podcast! I think this medical expert and Meyer are both on-point!

It's fascinating how the body works, and I'm glad to have it explained in depth to me. Great find!

If it happened this way -- and this makes more sense than anything else we've heard -- it pretty much rules out Burke because he was small for his age, and it's highly unlikely he could have done anything close to strangling JBR with one hand while delivering a fatal blow.

And, if we take BR out of the equation, it also removes all theories that focus on a parental coverup of their son.

My FIL sustained a TBI by hitting his head on a concrete patio. There was not any evidence of injury on the scalp whatsoever.

He was found unconscious lying on the patio. He was still unconscious when the paramedics arrived. The doctors surmised that he either slipped and fell somehow or he had passed out and fell. Brain scans indicated a bleed, but there was no outward sign of the injury. He did not remember what happened, so they just had to guess.

 

[CloudedTruth]

The reason why there was no visible injury on the outside of her scalp is because she was strangled first. Dr meyer said both injuries strangulation and blow to the head happened almost simultaneously. It’s been explained on a podcast on YouTube by a doctor that when a person is being strangled, the heart stops pumping blood to the skin and starts pumping more blood to the brain to get more oxygen to the brain. Hence no injury to the scalp.
Here’s the podcast. They start talking about it at 47:32

This quote is from the AMA that Former Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner conducted on Reddit a few years ago:

We know from the evidence she was hit in the head very hard with an unknown object, possibly a flashlight or similar type item. The blow knocked her into deep unconsciousness, which could have led someone to believe she was dead. The strangulation came 45 minutes to two hours after the head strike, based on the swelling on the brain. While the head wound would have eventually killed her, the strangulation actually did kill her. The rest of the scene we believe was staged, including the vaginal trauma, to make it look like a kidnapping/assault gone bad. I have avoided saying who I believe is responsible and let the facts speak for themselves. There are several viable theories.

This was part of the testimony that the Grand Jury heard about the head wound. I think it is most compelling when one considers that the coroner, Dr. John Meyer testified to the Grand Jury. Also testifying were Dr. Lucy Rorke, whom Dr. Meyer had asked to consult on the results of the autopsy specific to the head wound.

She was knocked deeply unconscious according to Dr. Rorke, and it is very possible that she was thought to be dead. Signs of life would have been difficult to detect. The brain is the "command center" of the body if you will. It is responsible for sending signals through the nervous system to the other organs to regulate things like breathing, heart rate, body temperature, digestion, etc. When someone is knocked unconscious, especially into a deep unconsciousness as was with JBR, organ function is affected. One of the things that happens is that blood pressure is diminished, and the first area to suffer from a loss of blood flow is the brain. Among the things noted by Dr. Rorke was that there was necrosis in the brain tissue. Necrosis is "the death of cells or tissues in the body that occurs when cells are deprived of oxygen, nutrients or blood flow, leading to their irreversible damage and eventual demise". In her deeply unconscious state, JBR's brain was being deprived of oxygen, nutrients and blood flow as a result of the lack of signals from the brain to the essential organs.

There is no indication in the autopsy report that Dr. Meyer cut away or shaved any hair from JBR's head to thoroughly examine the scalp. We do know from the lack of blood at the scene and on her head and in her hair that the skin of the scalp was not broken. But it is noted in the autopsy report that there was a scalp contusion. I would call that an injury.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

This quote is from the AMA that Former Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner conducted on Reddit a few years ago:

We know from the evidence she was hit in the head very hard with an unknown object, possibly a flashlight or similar type item. The blow knocked her into deep unconsciousness, which could have led someone to believe she was dead. The strangulation came 45 minutes to two hours after the head strike, based on the swelling on the brain. While the head wound would have eventually killed her, the strangulation actually did kill her. The rest of the scene we believe was staged, including the vaginal trauma, to make it look like a kidnapping/assault gone bad. I have avoided saying who I believe is responsible and let the facts speak for themselves. There are several viable theories.

This was part of the testimony that the Grand Jury heard about the head wound. I think it is most compelling when one considers that the coroner, Dr. John Meyer testified to the Grand Jury. Also testifying were Dr. Lucy Rorke, whom Dr. Meyer had asked to consult on the results of the autopsy specific to the head wound.

She was knocked deeply unconscious according to Dr. Rorke, and it is very possible that she was thought to be dead. Signs of life would have been difficult to detect. The brain is the "command center" of the body if you will. It is responsible for sending signals through the nervous system to the other organs to regulate things like breathing, heart rate, body temperature, digestion, etc. When someone is knocked unconscious, especially into a deep unconsciousness as was with JBR, organ function is affected. One of the things that happens is that blood pressure is diminished, and the first area to suffer from a loss of blood flow is the brain. Among the things noted by Dr. Rorke was that there was necrosis in the brain tissue. Necrosis is "the death of cells or tissues in the body that occurs when cells are deprived of oxygen, nutrients or blood flow, leading to their irreversible damage and eventual demise". In her deeply unconscious state, JBR's brain was being deprived of oxygen, nutrients and blood flow as a result of the lack of signals from the brain to the essential organs.

There is no indication in the autopsy report that Dr. Meyer cut away or shaved any hair from JBR's head to thoroughly examine the scalp. We do know from the lack of blood at the scene and on her head and in her hair that the skin of the scalp was not broken. But it is noted in the autopsy report that there was a scalp contusion. I would call that an injury.

If JonBenet was unconscious for 40 minutes to two hours before death, why were there no visible injuries or swellings to her scalp? We all know what happens when you bump your head, you get a lump the size of an egg. No one knows what Dr Rorke said during the grand jury sittings. James kolar isn’t a brain doctor and his retelling of Dr Rorkes testimony is here say. According to the autopsy, the only damage to jonbenets scalp was on the inside of the scalp.