Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey #2

[snarast]

If he is know to the Ramsey's, do you believe that the Ramsey's know too who that intruder is?

I believe all the necessary investigation and gathering of evidence from the Ramsey's family and inner circle was done at that time, and LE just does not need to do it again, because they had not found anything suspicious. Or if it was not done to the extent that should be necessary, they possibly just do not suspect anyone to gather more evidence or do additional testing. IMO

I don’t know if JR knows.

No amount of investigation can replace WGS and WGS wasn’t available at scale until fairly recently.

I imagine the protocols for LE do not allow this exploratory approach, though. So it’s probably a moot point, unfortunately.

 

[CrimeTheorist]

Because JR wants the DNA tested I think it means that if he is covering for someone, than he knows it's not their DNA that was left. He's either an innocent man looking for his daughter's killer or sure that the DNA won't point to a suspect that could point the finger at him for allowing this crime to happen.

 

[Ponytale]

I don’t know if JR knows.

But he does not or does not know who this intruder was, he sure must have believed an intruder did enter their house in the middle of the night and kidnapped JonBenet, right? After all, there was a ransom letter left and his daughter was gone.

So as an innocent father he must have believed this letter and the fact that his child is kidnapped, because an innocent parent who found his daughter missing would believe that something terrible had happened, right?

But why didn't they search the basement and every inch of the house? Why did hi call the police immediately when he was warned not to do so or his daughter will be beheaded? They said they didn't even read the whole letter - why? Didn't they care what the kidnappers had to say or how to get her back? Why didn't they panic and anxiously wait for the call from the kidnappers? And if that call didn't come, why didn't they care? It was their only hope to find out if she was ok and get instructions how to get her back?

Doesn't all the above make you question if it really was an intruder, known or not known?

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

I can’t see myself writing that RN, let alone all 3 pages of it, without getting tears and snot all over it, the pen and accidentally ripping the paper. At least not without being heavily tranquilized or completely dissociated first. The note would probably not even be legible by the time I’m done.

Also, I imagine it would be hard to stand there or witness your partner strangled your flesh and blood with a garrote without going feral and attacking them or begging them to stop. Even if they both agreed to end JBR’s life how could you bare to do so so brutally and violently? How do you look at each other or your kid ever again afterwards without breaking?

I think it is possible that if BR did fatally injure JBR, that his parents would have lost control due to grief and laid their hands on him, by either grabbing him and shaking him really hard or more, or yelled at him demanding to know what he had done. I imagine in such a situation they may not have wanted to hurt him because he is their son but he did just cost them the life of their beloved daughter. It would make me wonder if there is any documentation or indication from LE or the Stines that such marks were found on BR or if he ever indicated being afraid, hated or feeling unwanted by his parents afterwards?

Also, at what point do I just give up? According to Kolar, Dr. Rorke claimed JBR might have lived had she received timely medical attention. If a parent just came across their unresponsive daughter lying on the floor wouldn’t one of their first instincts be to call 911, even before they could get the whole story or a hint of BR being involved? Does 911 have any record of the Ramseys or one JR’s phone calling them prior to the call reporting JBR missing/kidnapped?

 

[snarast]

But he does not or does not know who this intruder was, he sure must have believed an intruder did enter their house in the middle of the night and kidnapped JonBenet, right? After all, there was a ransom letter left and his daughter was gone.

So as an innocent father he must have believed this letter and the fact that his child is kidnapped, because an innocent parent who found his daughter missing would believe that something terrible had happened, right?

But why didn't they search the basement and every inch of the house? Why did hi call the police immediately when he was warned not to do so or his daughter will be beheaded? They said they didn't even read the whole letter - why? Didn't they care what the kidnappers had to say or how to get her back? Why didn't they panic and anxiously wait for the call from the kidnappers? And if that call didn't come, why didn't they care? It was their only hope to find out if she was ok and get instructions how to get her back?

Doesn't all the above make you question if it really was an intruder, known or not known?

No. The question is why didn’t the police search the house and treat it like a crime scene?

They called the police immediately when they saw it was a ransom letter. I guess TLDR was a thing even in the past.

Honestly, who writes a ransom note like that hoping for a normal response.

There’s a reason you don’t hide the ”don’t tell LE” at THE END of the letter.

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

But why didn't they search the basement and every inch of the house?

I think FW told Arndt that he searched the wine cellar where JBR was found earlier that day but it was dark and he couldn’t find the switch to turn the light in there on. IIRC, he said he peered in there but saw nothing so he left it at that.

I think another officer came across the wine cellar room before him but chose not to check it. the door was latched, IIRC.

I don’t get why FW just didn’t ask JR to help him find the switch to turn on the light or ask one of the officer’s to borrow one of their flashlights? Wasn’t there one right there on the kitchen table? He could have used that one if someone brought it down. I also don’t get why when looking for an alleged missing or kidnapped child an officer would not check behind every door or in every room, even the ones with a latch?

https://juror13lw.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/linda-arndt-jan-8-1997-report.pdf

 

[snarast]

I think FW told Arndt that he searched the wine cellar where JBR was found earlier that day but it was dark and he couldn’t find the switch to turn the light in there on. IIRC, he said he peered in there but saw nothing so he left it at that.

I think another officer came across the wine cellar room before him but chose not to check it. the door was latched, IIRC.

I don’t get why FW just didn’t ask JR to help him find the switch to turn on the light or ask one of the officer’s to borrow one of their flashlights? Wasn’t there one right there on the kitchen table? He could have used that one if someone brought it down. I also don’t get why when looking for an alleged missing or kidnapped child an officer would not check behind every door or in every room, even the ones with a latch?

https://juror13lw.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/linda-arndt-jan-8-1997-report.pdf

I hope they’ve compared FW’s DNA to their samples. Obviously, it doesn’t have to be his DNA you test but a third cousin’s DNA would likely suffice.

Anyway, his behavior raises flags to say the least, it’s pretty much what I would expect if it was a friend that was the intruder. Delaying finding her, enjoying the hysteria they’ve generated.

IMHO

 

[Deleted member 187229]

But he does not or does not know who this intruder was, he sure must have believed an intruder did enter their house in the middle of the night and kidnapped JonBenet, right? After all, there was a ransom letter left and his daughter was gone.

So as an innocent father he must have believed this letter and the fact that his child is kidnapped, because an innocent parent who found his daughter missing would believe that something terrible had happened, right?

But why didn't they search the basement and every inch of the house? Why did hi call the police immediately when he was warned not to do so or his daughter will be beheaded? They said they didn't even read the whole letter - why? Didn't they care what the kidnappers had to say or how to get her back? Why didn't they panic and anxiously wait for the call from the kidnappers? And if that call didn't come, why didn't they care? It was their only hope to find out if she was ok and get instructions how to get her back?

Doesn't all the above make you question if it really was an intruder, known or not known?

John did search the house. He says he did in his police interviews. He even looked in the walk in fridge.

 

[Ponytale]

I can’t see myself writing that RN, let alone all 3 pages of it, without getting tears and snot all over it, the pen and accidentally ripping the paper. At least not without being heavily tranquilized or completely dissociated first. The note would probably not even be legible by the time I’m done.

I agree, neither can I. And it is possibly that neither did the person who wrote it. There were pages ripped out of the notebook that have never been found and a hint that there could have been a practice letter written before. We do not know if and how many drafts were written before that original letter came to be. They had the whole night to write and rewrite it... It is possible that it was written multiple times and previous versions of the RN were exactly like you described. Then they just needed one time to rewrite it clean... IMO.

Also, I imagine it would be hard to stand there or witness your partner strangled your flesh and blood with a garrote without going feral and attacking them or begging them to stop. Even if they both agreed to end JBR’s life how could you bare to do so so brutally and violently? How do you look at each other or your kid ever again afterwards without breaking?

But we do not know if one of them was standing and looking when the other one did it. Maybe the person who did it was alone that time.
They bared it because they saw no other option. We do not know their reasoning. The scene shows love and care. If there was a cold-blooded killer in the house, the scene would be a lot more brutal and violent, in my opinion.

I think it is possible that if BR did fatally injure JBR, that his parents would have lost control due to grief and laid their hands on him, by either grabbing him and shaking him really hard or more, or yelled at him demanding to know what he had done.

But it is also a possibility that Burke yelled for Patsy and John to come after the accident, and told them himself what had happened. We saw on CBS-show that he is able to demonstrate how one could have hit her on the head. His parents, IMO, could have been busy helping JB and tending for her and did not have time to tend to a panicking and shocked Burke. It would have been easier to send him to his room and tell him to stay in bed, so that he wouldn't be there at the scene panicking and crying with them.

I imagine in such a situation they may not have wanted to hurt him because he is their son but he did just cost them the life of their beloved daughter. It would make me wonder if there is any documentation or indication from LE or the Stines that such marks were found on BR or if he ever indicated being afraid, hated or feeling unwanted by his parents afterwards?

I have not read about statements regarding that matter. But again, we do not know what happened behind closed doors. There could have been many heated arguments or consequences that we do not know of. Public knows only what they wanted public to know.

Also, at what point do I just give up? According to Kolar, Dr. Rorke claimed JBR might have lived had she received timely medical attention. If a parent just came across their unresponsive daughter lying on the floor wouldn’t one of their first instincts be to call 911, even before they could get the whole story or a hint of BR being involved?

There could have been many reasons to do what they did. We do not know what they could have thoughts. But some of the reasons are their money, power and reputation. Their fear that she could already have been dead after the blow if they did not detect her breathing or her having pulse. The fear of having to raise a child who is severely brain damaged or in a vegetative state if they called for help. Or not wanting to be parents to a child who is know to have killed her sister. Or the SA that could have not been explained away. Or if they knew that they allowed this to happen because there were previous things in Burkes records that would have incriminated them by not getting help.
Many to choose from. We do not know if it is one or many of those or something different, but I see many possible reasons...

Does 911 have any record of the Ramseys or one JR’s phone calling them prior to the call reporting JBR missing/kidnapped?

I do not think so. The phone records went "missing".

 

[Ponytale]

No. The question is why didn’t the police search the house and treat it like a crime scene?

Because it was not yet a crime scene - it was a scene of a kidnapped child.

They called the police immediately when they saw it was a ransom letter. I guess TLDR was a thing even in the past.

But the RN directed them to not call the police because their daughter would be killed if they did. Wouldn't you as a parent be worried about that and consider how to alert the authorities differently then just by immediately calling the cops?

Honestly, who writes a ransom note like that hoping for a normal response.

If you believe a kidnapper entered your house and did it, why wouldn't you hope for a response from them? Especially if they had written in the note that they would call.

There’s a reason you don’t hide the ”don’t tell LE” at THE END of the letter.

But is there a reason why an innocent parent who's child has been kidnapped wouldn't read the whole ransom note?

 

[Ponytale]

I don’t get why FW just didn’t ask JR to help him find the switch to turn on the light or ask one of the officer’s to borrow one of their flashlights? Wasn’t there one right there on the kitchen table? He could have used that one if someone brought it down. I also don’t get why when looking for an alleged missing or kidnapped child an officer would not check behind every door or in every room, even the ones with a latch?

Yes, there are many questions. Why didn't any of them at the house question that has anyone looked into that wine cellar room to check if she wasn't there?

 

[CrimeTheorist]

I see a lot of people online mention that the "ransom note" says not to contact police near the end so they might have called 911 because they hadn't read that far, but near the beginning it does say "follow our instructions to the letter".

 

[snarast]

Because it was not yet a crime scene - it was a scene of a kidnapped child.

But the RN directed them to not call the police because their daughter will be killed. Wouldn't you as a parent be worried about that and consider how to alert the authorities differently then just by immediately calling the cops?

If you believe a kidnapper entered your house and did it, why would you hope for a response from them? Especially if they had written in the note that they would call.

But is there a reason why an innocent parent who's child has been kidnapped wouldn't read the whole ransom note?

That’s per definition a crime scene.

When you read ”we have your daughter” the rational thing is to look for your daughter, not read an essay. I’d wager her absence would then distract substantially from this epic letter.

Most likely, they read the entire note while she was on the phone with 911.

The response I’m talking about is the parents’ response. The ”kidnapper” would understand they risked having their message clouded when they decided to embellish the text with two useless pages about appropriate attire and what not.

They did not care.

Because It is not a ransom note. It is a joke. It’s quite clever.

 

[CrimeTheorist]

When reading the "ransom note" again I realized I don't know if when JR tried to get the money from his banker friend did he even bother to ask him to get it in the way the note says? Like $100,000 in $100 dollar bills and 18,000 in $20 dollar bills? If he forgot to do that than it would just be another thing to add to the bevy list of things that don't look right for the family being innocent.

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

But is there a reason why an innocent parent who's child has been kidnapped wouldn't read the whole ransom note?

Probably panic, maybe running around to see if your child is indeed gone and then more panic. It seemed like based on PR’s LE interview and Arndt’s and French’s recollections, that JR took control as his wife began to collapse. I think he read the note in the entirety and directed PR to call 911 because she relying on him to make the decisions since she was too overwhelmed. Maybe that is why she asks him “Now what?” instead of answering the 911 operator and then unfortunately hangs up.

If the RN is real, I do wonder if it was good instinct, his military training or maybe recent media coverage of true crime that factored into him deciding to contact the cops instead of abiding by the RN’s directions?

 

[Deleted member 187229]

Because it was not yet a crime scene - it was a scene of a kidnapped child.

But the RN directed them to not call the police because their daughter will be killed. Wouldn't you as a parent be worried about that and consider how to alert the authorities differently then just by immediately calling the cops?

If you believe a kidnapper entered your house and did it, why would you hope for a response from them? Especially if they had written in the note that they would call.

But is there a reason why an innocent parent who's child has been kidnapped wouldn't read the whole ransom note?

A person in a state of shock and full of adrenaline would probably struggle to read a whole 2 and 1/2 page ransom note. I remember I took my daughter shopping once and let her look in some shops by herself when she was 14, it took longer than expected and I started getting really worried and started panicking. I tried to call her mobile and kept forgetting her number and dialling the wrong numbers etc. when you’re in a state of panic, you can’t function. You can’t think straight. There’s no way patsy would be able to read the whole note in that state of mind and I think calling the police is a normal response even if the note said not to. There’s been other kidnapping cases with ransom notes and police are usually called straight away. As if anyone wouldn’t call the police…. It’s the first thing any normal person would do is call the police.

 

[Ponytale]

A person in a state of shock and full of adrenaline would probably struggle to read a whole 2 and 1/2 page ransom note. I remember I took my daughter shopping once and let her look in some shops by herself when she was 14, it took longer than expected and I started getting really worried and started panicking. I tried to call her mobile and kept forgetting her number and dialling the wrong numbers etc. when you’re in a state of panic, you can’t function. You can’t think straight. There’s no way patsy would be able to read the whole note in that state of mind and I think calling the police is a normal response even if the note said not to. There’s been other kidnapping cases with ransom notes and police are usually called straight away. As if anyone wouldn’t call the police…. It’s the first thing any normal person would do is call the police.

I understand that. But then again if I found my child missing and a RN in my house I would be afraid to run to call for the cops on my fist instinct because I'd still have questions in my head like - what if they are watching me? Even if I didn't read the note to know that it was written there and they were actually watching me.

It is stated in the first paragraph of the letter that if I do not follow the instructions of the letter I will not see her again - now I'd be very much alerted after seeing that and would take the time to read what the "instructions" are. And I'd yell to my spouse who is going to call 911 to stop it immediately. I would be panicking "what to do?" and would try to figure our next steps out with my spouse - how to alert them differently than just calling from the land line - they had a mobile phone at the house. And maybe call our friends first and tell them to call the cops instead? Let them ask them to arrive in unmarked cars?
They are all options I know. And not everyone thinks and reacts alike.

But again, I wouldn't do anything that would risk harming my child in any way. Panic or not. I'd be more afraid that maybe they will hurt her...

 

[snarast]

Probably panic, maybe running around to see if your child is indeed gone and then more panic. It seemed like based on PR’s LE interview and Arndt’s and French’s recollections, that JR took control as his wife began to collapse. I think he read the note in the entirety and directed PR to call 911 because she relying on him to make the decisions since she was too overwhelmed. Maybe that is why she asks him “Now what?” instead of answering the 911 operator and then unfortunately hangs up.

If the RN is real, I do wonder if it was good instinct, his military training or maybe recent media coverage of true crime that factored into him deciding to contact the cops instead of abiding by the RN’s directions?

JBR is gone and the letter reads like a diabolical joke - yeah unless JR knew immediately who was the likely culprit, LE is the logical next step.

 

[Ponytale]

If the RN is real, I do wonder if it was good instinct, his military training or maybe recent media coverage of true crime that factored into him deciding to contact the cops instead of abiding by the RN’s directions?

But how can you consider it to be a "good instinct" to call the cops if in the result of that you could get your child killed? What parent would risk such a thing? I do not think that it is a good instinct but rather a foolish decision. Unless I knew that my child was really not in any danger... IMO

 

[Deleted member 187229]

I understand that. But then again if I found my child missing and a RN in my house I would be afraid to run to call for the cops on my fist instinct because I'd still have questions in my head like - what if they are watching me? Even if I didn't read the note to know that it was written there and they were actually watching me.

It is stated in the first paragraph of the letter that if I do not follow the instructions of the letter I will not see her again - now I'd be very much alerted after seeing that and would take the time to read what the "instructions" are. And I'd yell to my spouse who is going to call 911 to stop it immediately. I would be panicking "what to do?" and would try to figure our next steps out with my spouse - how to alert them differently than just calling from the land line - they had a mobile phone at the house. And maybe call our friends first and tell them to call the cops instead? Let them ask them to arrive in unmarked cars?
They are all options I know. And not everyone thinks and reacts alike.

But again, I wouldn't do anything that would risk harming my child in any way. Panic or not. I'd be more afraid that maybe they will hurt her...

Unless you’ve ever been in their situation, you don’t know how you’d react. You’re thinking about what you would or wouldn’t do with a rational mind. You don’t know what you’d do in their situation, in their state of mind. They were panicked, in shock. They could barely read the note, they had adrenaline overtaking their body and mind. They did what anyone would probably do, they called the police.

California educator and author Judy Willis said that stress can cause the amygdala – the region of the brain that regulates emotion – to work overtime, thereby hindering the ability of the prefrontal cortex to engage in critical thinking.