FL - 17 killed in Stoneman Douglas H.S. shooting, Parkland, 14 Feb 2018 #2 *Arrest*

[kaen]

On the conversation about levels of autism--- we have no solid information as to this man's dx. So much is conjecture as to what dx contributed to his killing at the school or his behavior of harming animals previously.

When my oldest was in grade school, he had a peer whose behavior was odd-- alternating between cruel and aloof. He had been seen since he was 5 by a series of psychologists and psychiatrists. His mom was highly popular among the parents-- always volunteered, brought snacks for teachers, and would be able to pick up anyone's kid at a moments notice. His dad was similar to his son but he was a HIGHLY successful financial person in arbitrage and, ultimately, created a successful hedge fund. This young man was barely functional. Kids were afraid of him. Teachers feared his reactions so they coddled him. On a trip, he got another kid to help him push a kid's head into some jetty rocks at the beach-- the kid was mine. After all was said and done, little was done except this child left the school. Over the years, he was a steady disinvite at a number of schools. His family profile never changed. As an early teen, he was finally placed in a residential school. I am not sure of what caused the placement but I know something stunning had happened. The school made the world of difference for him. He lived there from 12.5 to 21. He has not been back at his home except for very short visits that do not include an overnight. Is that his choice or the family's choice? I have heard it is his. He doesn't want to be with his parents but has a great relationship with his siblings. I won't know all of the ins and outs but I can say that environment can surely make a difference, especially if it is coupled with good medication. All this to say, we don't know for sure what caused this killer to kill or what his parents did or didn't do "right"? I am sure there were many entry points to quality interventions. However, as a country, we don't put enough funding into mental illness treatment-- it is expensive. But, when we look at this week, I think we would all agree that even if it had cost millions to get this man help it would have been a smaller price to pay than the lives that were lost.

The terror experienced by his peers, his brother, his coworkers and the family that took him is so great that I am sure it is life changing no matter how close they stood to him on that day.

 

[cinsbythesea]

I can't speak for the rest of Canada, but I know that my daughter's school is a kindergarten-grade 8 school, very, very rural...they have lockdown drills regularly. The school is locked all day and there is a buzzer system to get in.

We had an incident at my neighborhood school where a pedophile came onto campus and grabbed a 10-year-old girl and took her off campus. Fortunately the little girl was a fighter and got away from him a block or two away from the school. Result- schools in my area are now fenced in with big black fences - kids locked in during the day - visitors are buzzed in. It breaks my heart that we've come to this - but I guess this is the new reality.

 

[enelram]

So heartbreaking reading these articles on what motivates school shooters- they truly are 'broken children'

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/deadly-dreams/

 

[kaen]

We had an incident at my neighborhood school where a pedophile came onto campus and grabbed a 10-year-old girl and took her off campus. Fortunately the little girl was a fighter and got away from him a block or two away from the school. Result- schools in my area are now fenced in with big black fences - kids locked in during the day - visitors are buzzed in. It breaks my heart that we've come to this - but I guess this is the new reality.

After Columbine, lots of high schools changed and locked down during the day. Sandy Hook changed the way schools handled the elementary environments with respect to lock downs and threat assessments. There is a copy of a post going around on the internet of a parent's post about her daughter coming home from school saying she needed new shoes. The child was not picked on for the shoes but was scared that her light up shoes would not keep her safe in the event of a shooter. Is the post real? I don't know. But, I do know that this new normal of having to think about all of this things is depressing and horrifying to adults as much as it is terrifying to children.

At Sandy Hook, we were never able to see the terror that was visited upon those children--no cell phones, no snap chats. At Parkland, the videos and snaps are all over the internet. As adults, we can now witness what happens and it is more horrifying than any of us could imagine, except if we have been in a situation or in a war. As we seek solutions to try to end this kind of carnage, we need to remember that we can see it, hear it and experience it in ways that we could have not before through the eyes of the survivors in those rooms at Parkland.

 

[Ibiz]

After Columbine, lots of high schools changed and locked down during the day. Sandy Hook changed the way schools handled the elementary environments with respect to lock downs and threat assessments. There is a copy of a post going around on the internet of a parent's post about her daughter coming home from school saying she needed new shoes. The child was not picked on for the shoes but was scared that her light up shoes would not keep her safe in the event of a shooter. Is the post real? I don't know. But, I do know that this new normal of having to think about all of this things is depressing and horrifying to adults as much as it is terrifying to children.

At Sandy Hook, we were never able to see the terror that was visited upon those children--no cell phones, no snap chats. At Parkland, the videos and snaps are all over the internet. As adults, we can now witness what happens and it is more horrifying than any of us could imagine, except if we have been in a situation or in a war. As we seek solutions to try to end this kind of carnage, we need to remember that we can see it, hear it and experience it in ways that we could have not before through the eyes of the survivors in those rooms at Parkland.

Great Post! Thank You.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Parkland school shooting: Possible paths for Nikolas Cruz’s defense
by Danny Cevallos

Legal analysis
Following accused school shooter Nikolas Cruz’s first appearance in court on Thursday, his attorney for the hearing, public defender Melisa McNeill told reporters that Cruz is sad, remorseful, and aware of the impact of the shooting on the community.

These statements were empathetic and well-intentioned, but a prosecutor may try to use them against Cruz himself, whose defense options are diminishing as more information emerges about the shooting and his past.

Reportedly, Cruz is interested in pleading guilty and accepting a life sentence to avoid the death penalty. Even if rarely used, states with the death penalty have considerable leverage against a defendant, leverage that can induce an early guilty plea to avoid capital punishment...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...possible-paths-nikolas-cruz-s-defense-n848696

 

[jjenny]

You might be right and they may feel they don't want the death penalty because they don't want him put to death. Only time will tell. I agree the families have shown that they are bright and articulate and will make an informed decision. Reading Sid's postings on what he went through was eye opening to how how victims cope.
The point I was trying to make is I believe the prosecutor needs to listen to the victim's families and make an informed decision from the information he gathers from them. I am not making any statement on weather I believe the plead should or should not be taken. I believe it is not my decision to make. What they will decide, I have no idea, but I believe it is thier decision and will support thier decision.

I very much doubt that all families of victims are going to feel the same way about death penalty. You will have some that think he should get death penalty and some that don't believe in death penalty. So asking families of victims what to do isn't going to work with that many victims.

 

[cinsbythesea]

After Columbine, lots of high schools changed and locked down during the day. Sandy Hook changed the way schools handled the elementary environments with respect to lock downs and threat assessments. There is a copy of a post going around on the internet of a parent's post about her daughter coming home from school saying she needed new shoes. The child was not picked on for the shoes but was scared that her light up shoes would not keep her safe in the event of a shooter. Is the post real? I don't know. But, I do know that this new normal of having to think about all of this things is depressing and horrifying to adults as much as it is terrifying to children.

At Sandy Hook, we were never able to see the terror that was visited upon those children--no cell phones, no snap chats. At Parkland, the videos and snaps are all over the internet. As adults, we can now witness what happens and it is more horrifying than any of us could imagine, except if we have been in a situation or in a war. As we seek solutions to try to end this kind of carnage, we need to remember that we can see it, hear it and experience it in ways that we could have not before through the eyes of the survivors in those rooms at Parkland.

I understand why schools must be locked down- and kids won't miss what they don't know - but it just seems to fundamentally wrong to me that little kids have to be locked into a school - but I'm also coming from the perspective of having been able to ride my bike to school and leave it lying against a bike rack unlocked knowing it would be there when I was done at the end of the day. I guess it's those little freedoms and the loss of them that I am sad about. That we've come to such a reality that we have to lock down schools to keep children safe just breaks my heart. But that's where we are.

 

[CoolJ]

FYI:
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...edy-unfolds-russian-agents-sow-discord-online

[h=1]As An American Tragedy Unfolds, Russian Agents Sow Discord Online[/h]
Take it with a grain of salt. I know I've seen a lot of "garbage" comments on various MSM, Twitter, Youtube sites, etc. Quite a few were on the Youtube video by CNN of the grieving mother's plea to the POTUS. IE, "Fakenews", "Actors", etc. Be aware of the legitimacy of your sources.
It sickens me that human beings would stoop this low, and at the expense of a grieving community.

There ought to be consequences, we shouldn't have to tolerate this on any level. It's not freedom of speech, it's hate.

The shills are not only Russian. There is way more to it than that. In fact, I would question the validity of this article. What proof is provided that the shills are Russian? None.
Best way to combat fake news? Don't believe everything you read. Learn to trust your instincts. It is ok to sit on the fence about any topic. You don't have to choose a side.

 

[CoolJ]

Parkland school shooting: Possible paths for Nikolas Cruz’s defense
by Danny Cevallos

Legal analysis
Following accused school shooter Nikolas Cruz’s first appearance in court on Thursday, his attorney for the hearing, public defender Melisa McNeill told reporters that Cruz is sad, remorseful, and aware of the impact of the shooting on the community.

These statements were empathetic and well-intentioned, but a prosecutor may try to use them against Cruz himself, whose defense options are diminishing as more information emerges about the shooting and his past.

Reportedly, Cruz is interested in pleading guilty and accepting a life sentence to avoid the death penalty. Even if rarely used, states with the death penalty have considerable leverage against a defendant, leverage that can induce an early guilty plea to avoid capital punishment...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...possible-paths-nikolas-cruz-s-defense-n848696

If it is confirmed NC had "mental illness", is there any chance he could be rehabilitated and eventually released back into society? Sobering thought, i know. But we had an incident in Canada not too long ago where a man beheaded someone on a greyhound bus and was released just a few years later because he was not criminally responsible.
But truthfully, isn't that the whole point of a defense of mental defect?

Maybe the prosecutors should leave the death penalty off the table, take his guilty plea and run!

 

[x_files]

If it is confirmed NC had "mental illness", is there any chance he could be rehabilitated and eventually released back into society? Sobering thought, i know. But we had an incident in Canada not too long ago where a man beheaded someone on a greyhound bus and was released just a few years later because he was not criminally responsible.
But truthfully, isn't that the whole point of a defense of mental defect?

Maybe the prosecutors should leave the death penalty off the table, take his guilty plea and run!

The thought is far too scary!

 

[kaen]

I understand why schools must be locked down- and kids won't miss what they don't know - but it just seems to fundamentally wrong to me that little kids have to be locked into a school - but I'm also coming from the perspective of having been able to ride my bike to school and leave it lying against a bike rack unlocked knowing it would be there when I was done at the end of the day. I guess it's those little freedoms and the loss of them that I am sad about. That we've come to such a reality that we have to lock down schools to keep children safe just breaks my heart. But that's where we are.

I know what you mean and agree 1000%. There are so many pockets of safety that are lost to our children. I will say that the lives of many children have not been so easy over time--- in the 1960s and 1970s we had our neighborhood pedophile who abused little girls and was the great neighbor that lent those same girls parents his garden tools--whenever he was caught he cried to the parent and the police--- and everyone was silent letting future little girls get fondled and abused by him. I am sad that it is just one more thing but there have been lots of things for kids over time.

 

[kaen]

If it is confirmed NC had "mental illness", is there any chance he could be rehabilitated and eventually released back into society? Sobering thought, i know. But we had an incident in Canada not too long ago where a man beheaded someone on a greyhound bus and was released just a few years later because he was not criminally responsible.
But truthfully, isn't that the whole point of a defense of mental defect?

Maybe the prosecutors should leave the death penalty off the table, take his guilty plea and run!

If he pleads guilty to murder and gets life sentences for each of the people he murdered, he will never be released. If he is tried and found guilty with a sentence of life or death, he won't be released. I don't know how FL does mental defect or mental incompetence but I doubt that he would be able to get off the hook with that. I don't see him ever walking the streets again.

If there was a possibility that would be one great reason to accept his guilty plea---- never a chance that he could be seen as mentally ill and getting better in order to be released.

There are some mental illnesses that when addressed with medication and therapy with lots of other supports are managed and the people are indeed safe. I would think that those illnesses would be more like schizophrenia or illnesses where the person had lost touch with reality. But, I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Does the U.S. Execute
People with Mental
Illness? It's Complicated

There is a difference between mental illness — which encompasses a wide range of diagnoses, including serious ones like schizophrenia and paranoia — and insanity, a condition that is much more narrowly defined and more difficult to prove.

Insanity can shield you from being put on trial, found guilty or executed. But serious mental illness can’t.

Insane is different from mentally ill. The legal definition of insanity centers on the inability to comprehend the nature of one’s actions, a lack of understanding of right and wrong, or, in some states, a lack of capacity to control one’s actions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/us/mental-illness-death-penalty.html

 

[jjenny]

If he pleads guilty to murder and gets life sentences for each of the people he murdered, he will never be released. If he is tried and found guilty with a sentence of life or death, he won't be released. I don't know how FL does mental defect or mental incompetence but I doubt that he would be able to get off the hook with that. I don't see him ever walking the streets again.

If he is found not guilty by reason of insanity then once the doctors deem him "cured" he can be released. That's how not guilty by reason of insanity generally works. A man who shot Ronald Reagan is out and about now. Not sure specifics for Florida.

 

[Pamela_Brewer]

You might be right and they may feel they don't want the death penalty because they don't want him put to death. Only time will tell. I agree the families have shown that they are bright and articulate and will make an informed decision. Reading Sid's postings on what he went through was eye opening to how how victims cope.
The point I was trying to make is I believe the prosecutor needs to listen to the victim's families and make an informed decision from the information he gathers from them. I am not making any statement on weather I believe the plead should or should not be taken. I believe it is not my decision to make. What they will decide, I have no idea, but I believe it is thier decision and will support thier decision.

Since he is still alive, maybe they can study him and learn more about the (why).
Not only him, but others who have committed similar mass killings.
THERE is a diagnosis there and it goes WAY beyond "Autistic" or "Aspergers" or "Attachment Disorder" IMO.
They are EVIL and homicidal... I can't even begin to understand what drives them to want to kill innocent people.
Moo

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[kaen]

If he is found not guilty by reason of insanity then once the doctors deem him "cured" he can be released. That's how not guilty by reason of insanity generally works. Not sure specifics for Florida.

Right. I don't think he would rise to that level of insanity but it is a possibility.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

If it is confirmed NC had "mental illness", is there any chance he could be rehabilitated and eventually released back into society?

That would depend, I guess, on whether the particular mental illness concerned could be successfully treated.

If it's confirmed he has autism, that's not actually a mental illness but a developmental problem which cannot really be treated because it's caused by fundamental problems in the structure of the brain. From what I've seen and read, if it's identified early enough in children who are not seriously affected then they can be taught coping mechanisms to help them lead a normal life but if that support isn't given early enough, or the autism is more serious, then there's little that can really be done.

However it's been reported that Cruz also has OCD and ADHD, which would massively complicate matters. I think OCD is listed as a mental illness but I'm not sure about ADHD. I think quite a few children grow out of the latter, at least partly, as they get older.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Nikolas Cruz could plead guilty in Florida high school shooting to avert death penalty, lawyer says

The teenager accused of opening fire on a Florida high school Wednesday killing at least 17 people, reportedly could plead guilty to his crimes to avoid the death penalty, his lawyer said.

Nikolas Cruz, 19, made his first court appearance Thursday afternoon after being charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder in the shooting at Marjory Stoneman High School in Parkland, Fla. He was ordered held without bond.
Court documents showed he confessed to the shooting.

In my opinion the fact that NC confessed to the shooting could be used against him in any insanity plea. It shows that he knows that the killings were wrong. JMO

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/1...oting-to-avert-death-penalty-lawyer-says.html

 

[jjenny]

That would depend, I guess, on whether the particular mental illness concerned could be successfully treated.

If it's confirmed he has autism, that's not actually a mental illness but a developmental problem which cannot really be treated because it's caused by fundamental problems in the structure of the brain. From what I've seen and read, if it's identified early enough in children who are not seriously affected then they can be taught coping mechanisms to help them lead a normal life but if that support isn't given early enough, or the autism is more serious, then there's little that can really be done.

However it's been reported that Cruz also has OCD and ADHD, which would massively complicate matters. I think OCD is listed as a mental illness but I'm not sure about ADHD. I think quite a few children grow out of the latter, at least partly, as they get older.

Mental illness in itself doesn't prevent someone from being found guilty, regardless of whether it can be treated or not. He'd have to be found legally insane, which isn't the same as mentally ill.