FL - 17 killed in Stoneman Douglas H.S. shooting, Parkland, 14 Feb 2018 #2 *Arrest*

[CARIIS]

I think you're wrong. If Cruz is autistic, putting him in solitary in a prison with a completely regulated, unchanging regime would be akin to winning the lottery.

totally

 

[AmyPond]

I think professinials experiances with any population is obviously influenced by setting

We all know most suffering with autisim does not translate to future mass shooter.

However I had both inpt and special placement where I worked and there was a profound amount of violence.

It is a result of acuity IMO.

Acuity determines placement - and depending on what setting anyone is working does result in different experiences

I think autisms role in some mass shooting episodes is becoming clearer as a result of a couple of things.

Diagnosis studying the illness leads to greater understanding of the illness.

However, Elliot ROgers - directly because he was HF gave amazing insight into (maifeto) what the life of one suffering experiances .

Obviously the more acute don't have that capacity - I found it very educational in terms of learning how the world is experienced by those afflicted.

The Cascade mall shooters history was also informing .

It is hard to study and learn about any mental disorder when the primary symptom is an inability to communicate how life is being experienced.

Like it or not (smile) I have empathy for all of them . They are sick -- imo == it is sadly that simple.

Does that equate with forgiveness kinda

its real result is wishing there was money to
place these folks in long term mental treatment for the rest of their lives .

Should they be free on the streets nope

Should they punished for being sick nope

Again I ask -- dementia can be mean stuff

anyone wanna throw gma in the slammer .

In this day and age in conjunction with the illiness itself there is much more
exposure to violence via the internet.

so.......to ... following the core problem of the spectrum --- being alone, repetition etc it makes some sense that isolating in a room playing around with images and discussion etc of machine guns makes some sense.

I think for some folks they are seeing a 19 year old on the outside . On the inside is
an individual far younger .

Young kids are more malleable than older ones .

Am I saying folks suffering with the illiness are violent. I am not.

I do think however, that the profound rejection the individual with autism experiences does result , understandably in much resentment and feelings of anger and rage.

It is a mean world . The "meanness" transcends all environments.

It is relentless and ever present in any setting.

Psychotic folks are not present enough to "feel " rejection.

Generally for the mood disorders the rejection is not constant.

There are differences.

I think a lot of it (for older folks) is the notion of crazy or not crazy .

Trained or younger folks are more aware of
the subtleties and differences between them

In older generations it appears there is
a lot of pleading insanity is a game.

We do need to acknowledge IMO that there
are instances and people that do horrible things solely as a result of being sick

That is just a reality.

It is the human condition.

And there is still much we dont know.

The release of the 30 or so police calls I think might be very telling in that they willl provide a historic if you will , view into
the severity and progression of this mans illness.


I remain haunted by the call to the father stating (not for a court or a doctor) that their was uncertainty as it relates to wondering if murdering 17 and shooting 14 is "bad"

I can only relate that to a young young child
it is a really open window into this guys lack of awareness of what is acceptable socially

THE hallmark of the illness in and of itself................................

Why do you keep calling autism an "illness?" My son has autism and isn't "ill" at all. That's such a strange way to refer to it. I actually find it a bit offensive.

 

[AmyPond]

You have great points. I have worked with Alzheimer's/ dementia patients who become very combative. I have been cornered before with a patient in a walker, lol. It is interesting and painful to hear that before the disease they were completely opposite, loving and nonviolent. They should not be in jail at all.

I do have an OT question I have been pondering for awhile. Last summer I was vacationing at a condo, the type where the pool is inward where the condo decks are located. One morning I heard a very distraught child yelling at the pool. It went on for sometime, I went out on the deck to see what was going on. I observed a boy about ten moaning and yelling, he was throwing pool furniture around. There was a baby sitter there holding a baby trying to calm him down- at a safe distance. Another lady came out of the condo that they were staying to check on the sitter and the boy. The sitter told her that the boy had been like that all morning and had even broken stuff in the condo. Then an older boy came out and started swimming which calmed the boy down, he was still distraught but seemed to have fun- if that makes sense? My question is what happens to them as they age and are still violent? Where do they go? I have worried for him since...

You have to understand that child you are describing likely wasn't trying to cause pain or hurt people. He just didn't have any way to communicate. Kids on the spectrum who self harm and whatnot are typically doing it because they don't have a way to cope or communicate their needs. The intent isn't to hurt or harm. It is NOT the same thing as someone who shoots people at a school. This guy had the intent to harm and kill people. That is not a part of the autism spectrum at all. Not even close.

As for where those kids go as they age....that is a big fear and concern of all parents of kids like that. Some end up having to put them in a group home or facility of some sort, I think. It is very sad. Thankfully, many kids benefit greatly from ABA therapy or other forms of therapy that can really help with these types of issues. Sadly, it doesn't help everyone.

 

[Owutatangledweb]

Attn All Americans

Surprise ! We are back to money.

There are long lasting injectables (30 days)


They are expensive - noone will pay for them

There are only a few.

Its a win win win

the side effect profiles on the heavy hitters are rough

with an injectable however it kinda makes it to where at least it can get to level then the side effects most times settles

They stop taking their meds because of the side effect profiles. If you can get past that and the pt has relief.

But noone will pay for them .........

But the same problem recurs. They don't go back for the next shot. I agree with the poster that said it's got to be tied to the SSD payment. Go get your shot, we hand you the check.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

I know what autism looks like because I have a child with autism. I am also a part of many activities with our local autism society. I was just annoyed by the term "profoundly autistic" because it's not a term I hear from people in the autism community that I am a part of. The comment also seemed to pigeon-hole an entire group of people and imply that they are dumb.

What term do you hear then that covers "profound" or "severe" autism? Because since the condition is a spectrum there must by definition be individuals at either end of it.

People who have these "severe" autistic "behaviors" can also get good grades in school. Just like kids without those behaviors could get bad grades.

Define "good grades" please, because everything I've seen and read about autism is that it is a developmental delay, one in which the individual falls behind his or her peers and never catches up because they cannot catch up, even though they may make progress measured against themselves.

The profoundly or severely autistic individual I am personally aware of is the son of a friend of mine who was permanently hospitalised as a young teenager and remains doubly incontinent, non-verbal, prone to violent tantrums and self harm and has an intellectual age of 5 or 6. He happens to be 30 this year.

The idea of this man getting good grades at school is so far wide of reality that it's tragic.

 

[CARIIS]

I'd suggest a major factor is the extent to which the parents, especially the mother when the father is absent, are in denial of a problem and seek to shield the disturbed child longer than seems sensible to outsiders. That was certainly the case with Lanza and seems to have been the case with Cruz, though there are mixed signals with Cruz's mother - it's reported she tried to "give him away" at the age of 6 after his adoptive father died, yet later she is reported to have refused to believe that the brothers could have been committing acts of vandalism against neighbours' cars. Maybe it's a maternal guilt thing, ie the feeling that they birthed the disturbed child and therefore need to devote everything to "making up" for the error.

Maybe other mothers would have given up and surrendered their troubled sons to the authorities who might have found ways to curb the behaviour, or maybe it would merely have postponed an inevitable outburst for a decade or so.

It would be very interesting to know how many of these young shooters had mothers who were over-protective, in denial or who shielded their sons from the consequences of their behaviour.

In most instances attempts to have the child elsewhere is fear. Especially when their are other children in the home .

An outburst causes so much chaos-- there are plenty of videos on YT of such.

Watch some , and then ask yourself "If I was a single mom, on limited income, with two other children in the house , would I not be petrified"?

You know what else struck me last night?

I think it was the friends parents who (great choice) called the FBI

a person in the age bracket (like peers) I dont think would use the descriptor "erratic behavior" -- that just struck me as "adult"

The illness is not like a static thing. It can have much nuance and individuality.

And within that there is variation. The word spectrum gives an image of like left or right ON it .

Its a bit more a like a mash - and being intelligent does not mean one is not suffering with autism.

Its kinda like computer speed processing. Typically their abilty to process and understand the world around them is at a different speed, often scary and confusing.

There is a delayed developmental component as well,

I used to ask parents to, when there 15 year old is behaving in one manner what their reaction would be to the exact same behavior by a 4 year old.

The reaction is always different and should be.

Until it is truly grasped that the birthdate and height are somewhat not helpful here it is confusing.

Suffering with autism does not translate to stupid, while at the same time getting good grades in some areas does not mean the individual is not suffering with autism if that makes sense.

There really is no mutually exclusive component to any mental illness

Just like in the womb certain parts of us develop at different rates -- there is a similarity here.

And as we grow up there are typically stages where we master certain skill sets.

These are different for these folks

if we look at how a child learns to talk that is not linear some days he can say moma (while learning) and some days cant.

Often there is an inability to "process" how others are behaving and how to respond to others behavior.

If they perceive a smile as an mean person anyone is gonna respond differently.

So socially they experience all kinds of avoidance and mimicking bullying and being isolated because others dont understand how the autistic child is responding to what they understand they are meaning to communicate.

Try to put yourself in that world.

If automatically to you you think a smile is threatening and dangerous you are gonna respond differently.

But for the folks that understand and have an expectation of what normative response to smiling at someone else is - it becomes confusing for the other person as well .

But now we have two confused people.

if that makes sense

They do not have the tools to appropriately interact socially with the world around them

As I have said before for anyone who thinks he is malingering to avoid consequences ponder the call to dad . It blew my mind.

Down the road when the reality of the involvement of mental health in this tragedy starts , there will be many with the notion that he is not sick if he can plan to do this .

etc etc etc

 

[AmyPond]

It has been reported repeatedly that NC was diagnosed autistic, ADHD and severe OCD.

High functioning persons with autism do score well on tests that they can study for. Not “profoundly autistic” means the same as very low functioning autistic.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalky

Just an FYI - many in the community are going away from using terms like "low" and "high" functioning.

A good quote that basically explains why is this....

"The difference between high-functioning and low-functioning is that high-functioning means your deficits are ignored, and low- functioning means your assets are ignored."

 

[Elley Mae]

Just an FYI - many in the community are going away from using terms like "low" and "high" functioning.

A good quote that basically explains why is this....

"The difference between high-functioning and low-functioning is that high-functioning means your deficits are ignored, and low- functioning means your assets are ignored."

Respectfully

I don’t agree with that.

 

[Gardenista]

I know what autism looks like because I have a child with autism. I am also a part of many activities with our local autism society. I was just annoyed by the term "profoundly autistic" because it's not a term I hear from people in the autism community that I am a part of. The comment also seemed to pigeon-hole an entire group of people and imply that they are dumb.

People who have these "severe" autistic "behaviors" can also get good grades in school. Just like kids without those behaviors could get bad grades.

There are way more faucets to autism than behaviors. Too much to get into here especially since it's completely irrelevant since this guy's possible autism had NOTHING to do with him killing people.

Link please

 

[MsPooh]

Do we know if he was/is being treated for ADHD? Some meds used to treat it, if taken improperly (too much) can cause really awful side affects..and cause one to go off the chain. Unfortunately I have seen this happen first hand w/a family member, scared the heck out of me! Seriously, Dr.Jekyll /Mr. Hyde situation. After going through months of the erratic behavior not knowing what was going on, I finally got them to admit that they were abusing this stuff. After much research I found that it is easily abused by quite a few people that take it, it makes them feel like they can do anything non-stop and will crush anyone that gets in the way.

 

[AmyPond]

I think you're wrong. If Cruz is autistic, putting him in solitary in a prison with a completely regulated, unchanging regime would be akin to winning the lottery.

Many people with autism are social and enjoy being around other people.

What term do you hear then that covers "profound" or "severe" autism? Because since the condition is a spectrum there must by definition be individuals at either end of it.



Define "good grades" please, because everything I've seen and read about autism is that it is a developmental delay, one in which the individual falls behind his or her peers and never catches up because they cannot catch up, even though they may make progress measured against themselves.

The profoundly or severely autistic individual I am personally aware of is the son of a friend of mine who was permanently hospitalised as a young teenager and remains doubly incontinent, non-verbal, prone to violent tantrums and self harm and has an intellectual age of 5 or 6. He happens to be 30 this year.

The idea of this man getting good grades at school is so far wide of reality that it's tragic.

The "spectrum" isn't linear. There aren't two ends to it or whatever. These illustrations are a good description of what the spectrum really means.

https://the-art-of-autism.com/understanding-the-spectrum-a-comic-strip-explanation/

If you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism. No two are the same at all. That is why I hate seeing all of these sweeping generalizations in this thread. Obviously this hits close to home to me as someone with a child on the spectrum. I really hope people will take the time to click the link above because it really helps see things in a different light.

As for "severe" or "low" or "high" or whatever....the current DSM classifies things on levels. It can be less offensive to hear a "level" when referring to someone instead of saying high or low. Because I imagine no one wants to be called "low functioning."

 

[AmyPond]

Link please

Sorry, my opinion doesn't come with a link. And I am not the type to write "IMO" at the end of every sentence. Sorry for the confusion.

And now I need to just unsubscribe to this thread. It's too frustrating to know that so many people are judging an entire group of people based on sheer ignorance and misinformation.

So if anyone quotes me or asks for a response, sorry that you won't be getting one.

 

[CARIIS]

[h=2]Trying to Understand Someone Who Self-Injures[/h]
Consistent self mutilation is rarely attn seeking behavior imo:


That acts of self-injury are so often bloody and horrifying that it makes it harder for people to be thoughtful about what these acts mean. There is a tendency to panic when you see someone you care about bleeding from self-inflicted wounds, or covered with scars. Such panic interferes with thinking, and makes it harder for people to understand the motives behind self-injury.
Further complicating the matter is the way that self-injury looks like it must be a suicide attempteven though it usually isn't. An act of self-injury which might make sense if understood as a suicide attempt become all the more difficult to comprehend when the self-injurious person denies that they are trying to kill themselves and is telling the truth.
So why do people self-injure? What are they trying to accomplish when they harm themselves? The following list of 6 motivations seems to cover most of the common scenarios that people who self-injure describe.

---

[h=2][/h]

1. Distract themselves, alter the focus of their attention, or regain control over their minds when experiencing pressing, unavoidable and overwhelming feelings or thoughts.
2. Release tension associated with strong emotions or overwhelming thoughts.
3. Feel something physical when they are otherwise dissociated and numb.
4. Express themselves or communicate and/or document strong emotions they are feeling and cannot otherwise articulate.
5. Punish themselves.
6. Experience a temporary but intense feeling of euphoria that occurs in the immediate aftermath of self-harm.

---

[h=2]Has all of the 20 or so LE visits been released ?[/h]
https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/6-reasons-why-people-self-injure/

 

[ohreally]

It can be done but is grueling . You have to go to a judge -- and few judges back then wanted to do such

i would bet in our environment a heck of a lot more judges might be willing to do so .


I hope the prosecutor will meet with the victim's families to decide weather to go to trial or allow him to plead guilty in exchange for taking the death penalty off the table. As a group they may decide that they do not want to go through a trial and later all of the appeals a death penalty conviction brings. IMO thier voices need to be heard on this and weighed heavily on the prosecutor's decision.
I wonder if they can put a stipulation into the plead that he cannot do any interviews for media exposure.

Its educated and affluent -- I would vote most would not want the DP . And the kids have been wonderfully bright and articulate -- they are gonna focus more on the "other" (!) issue as opposed to murdering a sick person.

Again think of gma running after you with a big knife -- you would not take her prison you would take her to hospital -- identical

moo

You might be right and they may feel they don't want the death penalty because they don't want him put to death. Only time will tell. I agree the families have shown that they are bright and articulate and will make an informed decision. Reading Sid's postings on what he went through was eye opening to how how victims cope.
The point I was trying to make is I believe the prosecutor needs to listen to the victim's families and make an informed decision from the information he gathers from them. I am not making any statement on weather I believe the plead should or should not be taken. I believe it is not my decision to make. What they will decide, I have no idea, but I believe it is thier decision and will support thier decision.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

The High and Low Functioning labels were intended to separate out Autistics with an IQ under 70. Now though, societally functioning labels are used by people and professionals to designate one’s ability to function in society.

It’s rubbish.

All Autistic people are individuals.

Autism is Autism. Though certain people have better support structures and coping strategies than others, the underlying Autism is the same. It just affects different people differently, often with a co-morbid condition exacerbating the problem.

The biggest factor for the removal of Asperger’s from the DSM V diagnosis criteria was pressure from the Autistic community. A significant proportion of us see the separate labels and functioning labels as divisive and harmful.

https://autismawareness.com/the-mess-of-autism/

https://www.autismspeaks.org

 

[kaen]

In most instances attempts to have the child elsewhere is fear. Especially when their are other children in the home .

An outburst causes so much chaos-- there are plenty of videos on YT of such.

Watch some , and then ask yourself "If I was a single mom, on limited income, with two other children in the house , would I not be petrified"?

You know what else struck me last night?

I think it was the friends parents who (great choice) called the FBI

a person in the age bracket (like peers) I dont think would use the descriptor "erratic behavior" -- that just struck me as "adult"

Yes, very true about watching videos or seeing this behavior live. Even people with the most resources can struggle up against this kind of behavior.

On the call, I was thinking the friend's parents, someone at the school he attended, or a workplace manager who had talked to HR about him. If I was worried that he might do something, I wouldn't want my business or home attached to a call because if they didn't do more than talk to him, he would be looking for who called.

I am a mandated reporter. I have made my fair share of calls to authorities. I can also say I have had some serious blowback based on calling and reporting. While I never felt in danger from a person I reported, the anger and threats were scary. People who are in danger of losing what they have or their children are volatile beyond the original reason the authorities were called for. Those would be the days I parked closer to the front door of my facility or had security looking out for me as a precaution.

 

[CARIIS]

Just an FYI - many in the community are going away from using terms like "low" and "high" functioning.

A good quote that basically explains why is this....

"The difference between high-functioning and low-functioning is that high-functioning means your deficits are ignored, and low- functioning means your assets are ignored."

That was neat thank you! We did not really have spectrum stuff in my day.

Ours was PDD: Pervasive Developmental Delay

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I'm not sure that autism was a factor in this shooting or other mass killings but can't dismiss it either.

I think that more study's are a good idea to see if there is or isn't a connection and if the answer is yes, what can be done to prevent future acts of violence. JMO

 

[CARIIS]

The High and Low Functioning labels were intended to separate out Autistics with an IQ under 70. Now though, societally functioning labels are used by people and professionals to designate one’s ability to function in society.

It’s rubbish.

All Autistic people are individuals.

Autism is Autism. Though certain people have better support structures and coping strategies than others, the underlying Autism is the same. It just affects different people differently, often with a co-morbid condition exacerbating the problem.

The biggest factor for the removal of Asperger’s from the DSM V diagnosis criteria was pressure from the Autistic community. A significant proportion of us see the separate labels and functioning labels as divisive and harmful.

https://autismawareness.com/the-mess-of-autism/

https://www.autismspeaks.org

Is all cancer the same ?

Are all cavities the same?

Are all strokes the same?

Are all broken arms the same?

Heart attacks?

Respectfully , I do not think it is rubbish at all

 

[enelram]

Interesting article on " Inside the Mind of School Shooters" . He mentions ALL the Red Flags that were glossed over.

https://ed.lehigh.edu/theory-to-practice/2013/school-shooters