GUILTY FL - Charles Kinsey, autistic caregiver, North Miami, July 2016 -guilty of misdemeanor

[jjenny]

Since LE have made no mention of Arnaldo attacking Kinsey, IMO it's more likely Kinsey yelled "help me" because he was scared the police were going to shoot them. That could also confuse the police into thinking Kinsey was asking them for help. Even without knowing all the facts, it's clear that this situation was handled terribly by the officers on the scene. The fact that Kinsey was handcuffed after being shot makes my blood boil.

I don't think Mr. Kinsey was the one yelling "help me." Autistic guy is clearly not non verbal. He might not be able to speak in complete sentences but he clearly can say short phrases.

 

[Elley Mae]

I agree. Either this was a case of mistaken identity and the actual suicidal guy is ???? somewhere else ... or someone called this in hoping for an outcome like this? Nothing would surprise me anymore.

I wonder if the 911 caller saw Mr Soto before Mr. Kinsey arrived? With that being said and after watching video of Mr. Soto and the way he puts/places the truck to his face/head it could have looked like it someone walking in the street/sitting that was about to shot themselves. jmo idk

 

[CARIIS]

Watch this, he is saying lots.

[video=youtube;Wgk4RflAI4E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgk4RflAI4E[/video]

Catching up. There is a lot of conversation about his conversation. In reality, he is not having a conversation..Sometimes the utterences can "appear" relevant to what is going on around them. Generally it has has no context.

A pizza could be placed down and one might utter Pizza
Pizza Pizza vPizza Pizza

At the same time , at an airport the loop Pizza Pizza Pizza Pizza may start..

Think about what "contextual" value one would give a two three year old making utterances it pretty much the same. For all we know (they usually get in a rut) he might have been walking down the street yelling help me help me over and over, and the caller responded.

-He is acute-- we use and hear the word "talk" == moo think utterances and outbursts -thats a more accurate notion Understandably those that around the individual the most can , only at times, make some conclusions about an attempted conversation, more so than others listening to outbursts.

Shooting cops etc makes some sense - trauma - saying a familiar persons name over and over after such an event also makes some sense IMO.

moo

 

[bluesneakers]

Quote: Cuevas said officers received a 911 call indicating a man was in the street with a gun threatening to kill himself.

That couldn't be the same man, if the resident was non-verbal.

He also didn't have a gun. Do you think the 911 call was about another man?

 

[jjenny]

He also didn't have a gun. Do you think the 911 call was about another man?

But look at the way he is holding his truck.

 

[human]

It is amazing how some try to justify this shooting.

 

[CARIIS]

Was Rios Soto's verbal, or non-verbal, or something in between?

The useage of "non verbal" imo, is meant more to describe ineffective communication skill set, not an inabilty to vocalize and make some words. Thats not communicating that is making gutteral noises to displace uncomfortable feeling states, inability to handle frustration.

It is not really talking - noone would be telling a person who is trying to keep them from getting shot to shut up!



He is making gutteral outbursts "Shut Up' several times - that is all I heard. Anyone who was in that position, who was not autistic would be able to "follow" what the aid was saying, and understand the danger, be able to respond to the request to lie down. He is seeing police aim guns at them- a fucntioning person would know to lie down, not be screaming shut up, and understand that a person a foot away yelling he has a toy not a gun, would be capable of understanding that the cops thought the toy truck was a gun - He is not grasping anything going around him.

He is oblvious to what is going on - that is the illiness , an inablity to grasp the subtlities of human interaction. Has no gage to measure the dire sitution they are in and focuses back on his truck in the middle of an encounter with LE with rifles aimed at him.

He isn't completely non-verbal. He clearly can talk, you can hear him screaming "shut up" on the tape.

 

[ZooSleuth]

I don't think Mr. Kinsey was the one yelling "help me." Autistic guy is clearly not non verbal. He might not be able to speak in complete sentences but he clearly can say short phrases.

Just rewatched the video and I believe you are correct. For some reason I thought somebody was saying a witness heard one of them yell "help me, help me" right before the shots and not caught on camera. I guess that could also be true, but it was most likely the autistic man that said it if he was saying that earlier.

 

[ohreally]

Was Rios Soto's verbal, or non-verbal, or something in between?

The useage of "non verbal" imo, is meant more to describe ineffective communication skill set, not an inabilty to vocalize and make some words. Thats not communicating that is making gutteral noises to displace uncomfortable feeling states, inability to handle frustration.

It is not really talking - noone would be telling a person who is trying to keep them from getting shot to shut up!



He is making gutteral outbursts "Shut Up' several times - that is all I heard. Anyone who was in that position, who was not autistic would be able to "follow" what the aid was saying, and understand the danger, be able to respond to the request to lie down. He is seeing police aim guns at them- a fucntioning person would know to lie down, not be screaming shut up, and understand that a person a foot away yelling he has a toy not a gun, would be capable of understanding that the cops thought the toy truck was a gun - He is not grasping anything going around him.

He is oblvious to what is going on - that is the illiness , an inablity to grasp the subtlities of human interaction. Has no gage to measure the dire sitution they are in and focuses back on his truck in the middle of an encounter with LE with rifles aimed at him.

I agree that he is oblivious to what is going on. Thant is why it is hard or me to see him being the one saying help me help me in the seconds before the shots. He seems very agitated at Kinsey. With the agitation he is feeling at the time (and I do understand he has an illness) would it be likely for him to go from verbal agitation to physically going after Kinsey? I am in no way trying to place any blame on him, just trying to figure out how his actions might of changed after the video stops.
Also since Armando does seem to be oblivious to what is going on do you think that he can relate to what happened? I mean in this situation to most of us the traumatic part in all of this would be Kinsey getting shot. To Armando could he be oblivious to the shooting and the trauma to him is that his truck was taken away?
One more question. The group home owner said that he cannot stop an autistic adult (paraphrased) from leaving the group home. Is it true that the laws we have make it so that someone with Armando's mental capacity can leave the home whenever they want?

 

[jjenny]

Mr. Kinsey never said he was screaming "help me." He was trying to get his patient to comply with what police was telling them to do. So I don't see any reason as to why he would be screaming "help me." As for the patient, he could have been screaming any number of things, they don't necessarily have to make sense. He seem to be able to say short phrases, but nothing complex.

 

[Margo/Mom]

I don't think Mr. Kinsey was the one yelling "help me." Autistic guy is clearly not non verbal. He might not be able to speak in complete sentences but he clearly can say short phrases.

Think about the autistic character in the movie Rainman--which had some research behind it. That character communicated using a fairly short list of repetitive phrases, "whose on first," "my main man," etc. A good bit of his interaction was to repeat back what was asked of him. Perhaps "non-verbal" is misleading as there is some ability to utilize words in some attempts at communication. However, the available selection of words and phrases is fairly limited, and reliant almost entirely on the ability of someone having a history with the person to understand/interpret.

The video does seem to show Armando saying "shut up" repeatedly. However, it takes some interpretation to understand what he meant by that. Somebody more sophisticated may have said "I don't like what is happening here." Somebody else may have addressed either Kinsey or the police more directly--explaining that he was in no danger, and posing no danger. Someone with a greater command of the language and interactions might have said, "just tell me what you want me to do to make this stop." However, in Armando's case, there was no more nuanced language or understanding available. There was only the reality that something here was not right and he wanted it to be put right, communicated in the repeated phrase "shut up, shut up, shut up."

 

[ohreally]

Mr. Kinsey never said he was screaming "help me." He was trying to get his patient to comply with what police was telling them to do. So I don't see any reason as to why he would be screaming "help me." As for the patient, he could have been screaming any number of things, they don't necessarily have to make sense. He seem to be able to say short phrases, but nothing complex.

You have a good point that Arnoldo could of said it for no reason. Like he did in the video. IMO there is something that triggered the police to shoot when they did. I have heard on an audio tape that when officer thought Arnaldo was loading his weapon, which we know is wrong. So that could also be the trigger. I am in no way trying to put any blame on Kinsey or Arnaldo. To me Mr. Kinsey did everything to comply. At the same time he was trying so hard to also get Arnaldo to comply. Arnaldo IMO was oblivious to what was happening and could not comprehend to comply.
I know the officer shot three times and missed twice, hitting Kinsey in the upper leg. In the positions they both were in in the video IMO that is a long way off from the intended target. It is possible that they were closer at the time of the shooting than in the video. I cannot see Kinsey moving, but I can see Arnoldo moving. I can see him not even comprehending his movements. In that scenario with Kinsey having his arms in the air afraid to lower them yelling for help.
I don't know who said help me help me seconds before the gunshots. I just think it is possible for either one to of said it.

 

[i.b.nora]

Attorney for autistic man involved in North Miami police shooting asks DOJ to investigate case
Arnaldo Dietz, 26, hospitalized since July 18 shooting

Local10 News ABC
By Amanda Batchelor - Senior Digital Editor
Posted: 12:59 PM, July 26, 2016
Updated: 3:54 PM, July 26, 2016

http://www.local10.com/news/attorne...-police-shooting-asks-doj-to-investigate-case

“A second police officer, Cmdr. Emile Hollant, was placed on leave without pay, because investigators said he gave inconsistent accounts of the shooting.

Sources told Local 10 News that Hollant was the voice on the police radio telling dispatch and other officers that someone had a gun. They said he then lied to investigators, telling them he wasn't at the scene when the shooting happened.

Rios' toy truck was confiscated by police as evidence. Dietz said two toy trucks have been donated to his client.”​

Doesn't make things totally clear, but is a small step, perhaps.

 

[KaaBoom]

[video=youtube;KRQ8nZJBTeM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRQ8nZJBTeM[/video]

 

[Cobra Jet]

Attorney for autistic man involved in North Miami police shooting asks DOJ to investigate case
Arnaldo Dietz, 26, hospitalized since July 18 shooting

Local10 News ABC
By Amanda Batchelor - Senior Digital Editor
Posted: 12:59 PM, July 26, 2016
Updated: 3:54 PM, July 26, 2016

http://www.local10.com/news/attorne...-police-shooting-asks-doj-to-investigate-case

“A second police officer, Cmdr. Emile Hollant, was placed on leave without pay, because investigators said he gave inconsistent accounts of the shooting.

Sources told Local 10 News that Hollant was the voice on the police radio telling dispatch and other officers that someone had a gun. They said he then lied to investigators, telling them he wasn't at the scene when the shooting happened.

Rios' toy truck was confiscated by police as evidence. Dietz said two toy trucks have been donated to his client.”​

Doesn't make things totally clear, but is a small step, perhaps.

Does anyone wonder why two different police officers would feel the need to give "inconsistent accounts of the shooting"?

 

[i.b.nora]

North Miami holds town hall meeting in light of therapist shooting
WSVN 7 News Miami
Alex DiPrat
Tuesday July 26, 2016

“NORTH MIAMI, FLA. (WSVN) - The City of North Miami is holding a town hall meeting, Tuesday, to hear the community’s concerns in light of the recent police-involved shooting of a behavioral therapist.

The meeting is scheduled to begin at 6:30 p.m. at the Griffing Community Center.”

*

“Officials released calls angered citizens left on hotline

“Absolutely disgusted with your department. Absolutely disgusted with the defense you have given — that you were intending to shoot the autistic man. Everyone knows that is an absolute load of baloney. You handcuffed the man after shooting him, your explanation doesn’t add up,” said one caller.”​

I hope one of the reporters covers the meeting.

 

[i.b.nora]

This is a must read article:

Black Lives Matter Stage Sit-In, File Complaints At North Miami Police Station
WGCU NPR News
By Nadege Green
July 26, 2016

http://news.wgcu.org/post/black-lives-matter-stage-sit-file-complaints-north-miami-police-station

“Dozens of protesters filed into the North Miami police department wearing all black.

For the second time in days, community members and activists took their displeasure inside the police department's lobby after Charles Kinsey, an unarmed black man, was shot in the leg.

Black Lives Matter Miami staged a peaceful sit-in and requested to file formal complaints against Officer Jonathan Alleda.“

*

“North Miami police officers received and processed the complaints from protesters.

Police spokeswoman Natalie Buisserreth said the complaints will be handed over to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement which is investigating the shooting.”

*

“Initially, protesters were told they would not be able to file complaints by a man working at the station counter. He said their concerns were not “complaints,” but Buissereth disagreed.”​

Dum dah dum dah ... Dah!!!

 

[bluesneakers]

This is a must read article:

Black Lives Matter Stage Sit-In, File Complaints At North Miami Police Station
WGCU NPR News
By Nadege Green
July 26, 2016

http://news.wgcu.org/post/black-lives-matter-stage-sit-file-complaints-north-miami-police-station

“Dozens of protesters filed into the North Miami police department wearing all black.

For the second time in days, community members and activists took their displeasure inside the police department's lobby after Charles Kinsey, an unarmed black man, was shot in the leg.

Black Lives Matter Miami staged a peaceful sit-in and requested to file formal complaints against Officer Jonathan Alleda.“

*

“North Miami police officers received and processed the complaints from protesters.

Police spokeswoman Natalie Buisserreth said the complaints will be handed over to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement which is investigating the shooting.”

*

“Initially, protesters were told they would not be able to file complaints by a man working at the station counter. He said their concerns were not “complaints,” but Buissereth disagreed.”​

Dum dah dum dah ... Dah!!!

Um...

The department created a barricaded “First Amendment Zone” outside of the police station that included a podium, tent and water bottles for protesters, but no one used it.

Something seems not quite right with this set up.

 

[i.b.nora]

Um...

Something seems not quite right with this set up.

We knew they did that, it was in one of the articles posted here earlier. Doesn't mean people are required to use it, imo.

I think they have a ways to go to achieve a good working relationship and mutual understanfing with their North Miami community. Lucky for everyone, no one was killed.

The current police chief had only been on the job for a week before this shooting occured. That is not an excuse for anything, but he has a lot to learn in a very short time, imo.

 

[bluesneakers]

We knew they did that, it was in one of the articles posted here earlier. Doesn't mean people are required to use it, imo.

I think they have a ways to go to achieve a good working relationship and mutual understanfing with their North Miami community. Lucky for everyone, no one was killed.

The current police chief had only been on the job for a week before this shooting occured. That is not an excuse for anything, but he has a lot to learn in a very short time, imo.

No kidding. I sure wouldn't.