FL - Dawn Brancheau, Female Trainer Killed at Shamu Stadium

  • #201
"To say that Seaworld should not make a profit is like saying Ford should not make a profit, after all people die in cars everyday, does that mean that ford shouldn't make a profit?
The today show person who used that analogy was either slow-witted or dishonest, because no one is saying Seaworld should not make a profit merely because of the dangers.


eta: FTR, I'm all for Seaworld making a profit. I just want them and all of us to put the well-being of the animals first.

I also wouldn't put Tilly out in the open ocean unless i had no other choice. Is there a way to build an enclosure out in the ocean?
 
  • #202
Going to steal a quote from someone on the morning show today.

"To say that Seaworld should not make a profit is like saying Ford should not make a profit, after all people die in cars everyday, does that mean that ford shouldn't make a profit?

And it was further CONFIRMED that keiko (sp) did in fact starve to death. He contracted pnemonia, and starved to death.

Also for those of you that are saying that Seaworld should release Tilli, you are not considering the fact that if he did in fact do this intentionally, whats not to say that he won't do it intentionally in the wild??? That he won't grab someone in the wild???

BBM -- Unfortunately, that's what happens to animals in the wild when they get sick or old. They weaken and will get killed and eaten by other animals. In Keiko's case, since he was pretty much top of the food chain and was being monitored by marine biologists, it doesn't surprise me that he would starve to death -- usually animals that are very ill or near death will stop eating.

Living in a rural area in Manitoba near a Provincial Park, I have gotten used to the sad but natural things that happen to wild animals, especially old and young ones. Sometimes a young bear will get separated from its mother and starve to death because it it too young to survive on its own. Old bears get weak and ill and virtually starve to death. It is part of nature -- a part that people used to living in suburbs and cities are rarely exposed to.

I still get upset when I see or hear of something that happens to a wild animal, but I know it is the "cycle of life".
 
  • #203
Brancheau was killed Wednesday when Tilikum the killer whale grabbed her by her ponytail and pulled her under water.

Brancheau reportedly had that long ponytail that the whale grabbed onto because she was growing out her hair to donate it to "Locks of Love" for cancer patients


http://cbs3.com/topstories/dawn.brancheau.seaworld.2.1528321.html
 
  • #204
This whale has been in captivity for 27 years. He knows the difference between a toy and a human. IMO

That is not what was determined at the time of the incident.
 
  • #205
Hadn't thought of it that way, but if a "killer whale" is really a species of dolphin, based on what I have read about the intelligence of dolphins, Tilikum must have known the difference between a human and a toy. If we extrapolate further -- then he either wanted to play with her and was too rough, or he wanted to inflict some sort of harm. One dolphin expert that was widely quoted by the press said that he (paraphrased) meant to do it and that he hates humans and that he will do it again if he has the opportunity. Kind of chilling -- but it may be accurate. (This is all supposition and my opinion)

It's all supposition on the part of the expert who made that statement, too. Didn't I read that particular expert had never met Tilly?
 
  • #206
I realize Sea World appear to blame her because she had a ponytail.
Witnesses who were there reported she was grabbed by her waist or her upper arm. You can't blame someone for having an waist and an arm, can you?
By the way, she was doing it out in the open in front of people, and I bet it wasn't the first time she was in the water with the whale, so I would guess Sea World knew about it. If it were against the rules, why didn't they reprimand her, ask her to stop it, etc?

LOL! Are you kidding? Did I blame her for having a ponytail, much less a waist and an arm? NO, I did not. I did say that it had been noted that a ponytail on the head of a trainer who routinely feeds fish to the orca could have been mistaken as a fish. Same general shape.

BTW, I have no idea if she had ever been in the water with the orca. I do know it was against the rules. I cannot speculate on why Sea World did not reprimand her or ask her to stop what I do not know had ever been done before, or if it had ever come to the attention of Sea World if it had. I just know there was a rule against being in the water with Tilly, and the trainer, according to other trainers, broke that rule.


Ok I understand now. But it still does NOT change my feeling on this. The guy knew that he was not suppose to be in the enclosure, but chose to be. Remember the lion attack at the San diego zoo? Why were people sticking up for the lion back then? Why were people blaming the guy?? Because the guy that jumped in the pen had no business being in there!!! PERIOD!!!! The guy who was killed in the water , REGARDLESS of whether he was killed by the whales, or by hypothermia, got what was coming to him!!! I know it sounds cruel, but sooner or later people need to take responsibility for their actions rather then trying to blame it on a whale, lion, or another person!

Being draped over the orca's back doesn't imply that the man was killed by the orca either. It is also possible that the orca had just surfaced from underneath the body and it was momentarily draped across its back. It is also possible that the orca was trying to float the man above water......dolphins have been known to behave in this way in an attempt to save human lives. Regardless, the man's death was caused by hypothermia. There is not a single shred of evidence that the orca refused to allow the man to leave the enclosure, thus forcing the hypothermia. The evidence suggests that the orca did pull the guy's swimming trunks off, nothing more.

And of course you are totally right: this man hid out in Sea World so he would not be spotted while the place was shutting down, then he entered the tank alone, at night, with an orca.
 
  • #207
LOL! Are you kidding? Did I blame her for having a ponytail, much less a waist and an arm? NO, I did not. I did say that it had been noted that a ponytail on the head of a trainer who routinely feeds fish to the orca could have been mistaken as a fish. Same general shape.

BTW, I have no idea if she had ever been in the water with the orca. I do know it was against the rules. I cannot speculate on why Sea World did not reprimand her or ask her to stop what I do not know had ever been done before, or if it had ever come to the attention of Sea World if it had. I just know there was a rule against being in the water with Tilly, and the trainer, according to other trainers, broke that rule.




Being draped over the orca's back doesn't imply that the man was killed by the orca either. It is also possible that the orca had just surfaced from underneath the body and it was momentarily draped across its back. It is also possible that the orca was trying to float the man above water......dolphins have been known to behave in this way in an attempt to save human lives. Regardless, the man's death was caused by hypothermia. There is not a single shred of evidence that the orca refused to allow the man to leave the enclosure, thus forcing the hypothermia. The evidence suggests that the orca did pull the guy's swimming trunks off, nothing more.

And of course you are totally right: this man hid out in Sea World so he would not be spotted while the place was shutting down, then he entered the tank alone, at night, with an orca.

BBM

Yeah, he was a pretty smart fellow wasn't he????:waitasec:

O/T: Hi neighbor!
 
  • #208
I would like to say that first off I do not feel that animals should be captured or breed into captivity for our entertainment. However once an animal has been raised in captivity than you can not release it and expect it to survive, these are animals not people they do not have the brains to problem solve like we do, and thier natural instinct has been supressed.
The way to solve this problem is not capture or raise them in the first place. Wild animals should remain wild, they are not for our entertainment, and besides how would any of us like to spend our lives in a cage, or pool, JUST sayin.
 
  • #209
I would like to say that first off I do not feel that animals should be captured or breed into captivity for our entertainment. However once an animal has been raised in captivity than you can not release it and expect it to survive, these are animals not people they do not have the brains to problem solve like we do, and thier natural instinct has been supressed.
The way to solve this problem is not capture or raise them in the first place. Wild animals should remain wild, they are not for our entertainment, and besides how would any of us like to spend our lives in a cage, or pool, JUST sayin.

You know, I was thinking about his today.

I have a bird, he lives in a cage. (he loves me dearly btw)
I have dogs, they live in my house. (they think I hung the moon)
My daughter has a fish, he lives in an aquarium. (I don't know what he thinks, lol)

None of these animals were intended to live in their current surroundings.

Does that make me a bad person?

Should I open my back door and let the bird fly away, let the dogs run away and take care of themselves, throw the fish in a pond?

Tili can not be released IMO. The best thing for him would be to live out his life right where he is IMO. He is getting the best medical care.
As to all the comments about him swimming in his own urine, the water is filtered and VERY clean. Is the ocean? In the ocean he swims in his and millions others urine.

JMO
 
  • #210
BBM

Yeah, he was a pretty smart fellow wasn't he????:waitasec:

O/T: Hi neighbor!

Howdy!! Yep, this guy was a shining example of clear thinking and high intelligence.......
 
  • #211
LOL! Are you kidding? Did I blame her for having a ponytail, much less a waist and an arm? NO, I did not. I did say that it had been noted that a ponytail on the head of a trainer who routinely feeds fish to the orca could have been mistaken as a fish. Same general shape.

BTW, I have no idea if she had ever been in the water with the orca. I do know it was against the rules. I cannot speculate on why Sea World did not reprimand her or ask her to stop what I do not know had ever been done before, or if it had ever come to the attention of Sea World if it had. I just know there was a rule against being in the water with Tilly, and the trainer, according to other trainers, broke that rule.




Being draped over the orca's back doesn't imply that the man was killed by the orca either. It is also possible that the orca had just surfaced from underneath the body and it was momentarily draped across its back. It is also possible that the orca was trying to float the man above water......dolphins have been known to behave in this way in an attempt to save human lives. Regardless, the man's death was caused by hypothermia. There is not a single shred of evidence that the orca refused to allow the man to leave the enclosure, thus forcing the hypothermia. The evidence suggests that the orca did pull the guy's swimming trunks off, nothing more.

And of course you are totally right: this man hid out in Sea World so he would not be spotted while the place was shutting down, then he entered the tank alone, at night, with an orca.
As far as I understand, the man died from combination of hypothermia and drowning.
The first trainer was killed by drowning. Tilikum was one of the three whales that killed her. She fell in and was not allowed to leave the pool. There are witnesses who saw it.
The last trainer was killed by drowning and physical trauma. She couldn't leave the pool. There are witnesses who saw it.
Do you see the pattern?
It appears to me that once the person is in the pool (either falls, gets in the pool by himself, or pulled in by the whale) the whale doesn't let the person to get out.
But of course you can think whatever it is you want to think-there are no witnesses to the man's demise, after all.
 
  • #212
That is not what was determined at the time of the incident.

There was nothing of the sort determined at the time of the incident because no one can ask the whale what it is that he was thinking when he killed that lady.
 
  • #213
After reading our local newspaper today it said this is the 2nd trainer it has killed.
 
  • #214
You know, I was thinking about his today.

I have a bird, he lives in a cage. (he loves me dearly btw)
I have dogs, they live in my house. (they think I hung the moon)
My daughter has a fish, he lives in an aquarium. (I don't know what he thinks, lol)

None of these animals were intended to live in their current surroundings.

Does that make me a bad person?

Should I open my back door and let the bird fly away, let the dogs run away and take care of themselves, throw the fish in a pond?

Tili can not be released IMO. The best thing for him would be to live out his life right where he is IMO. He is getting the best medical care.
As to all the comments about him swimming in his own urine, the water is filtered and VERY clean. Is the ocean? In the ocean he swims in his and millions others urine.

JMO

You just made my point. I dont think that they should put animals in cages, we would not want that. however they do, and we cant stop it, and because they do the animals can't be expected to be able to survive in the wild once they have been taken care of by humans they would not survive. In other words they created this mess, so they have to deal with. Not kill or release the animal who cant care for its self at this point... does that make since?
 
  • #215
Brancheau was killed Wednesday when Tilikum the killer whale grabbed her by her ponytail and pulled her under water.

Brancheau reportedly had that long ponytail that the whale grabbed onto because she was growing out her hair to donate it to "Locks of Love" for cancer patients


http://cbs3.com/topstories/dawn.brancheau.seaworld.2.1528321.html
Then why wasn't her hair in a swim cap? That's what all swimmers with long hair on swim teams are required to do...
 
  • #216
You know, I was thinking about his today.

I have a bird, he lives in a cage. (he loves me dearly btw)
I have dogs, they live in my house. (they think I hung the moon)
My daughter has a fish, he lives in an aquarium. (I don't know what he thinks, lol)

None of these animals were intended to live in their current surroundings.

Does that make me a bad person?

Should I open my back door and let the bird fly away, let the dogs run away and take care of themselves, throw the fish in a pond?


JMO

A dog is a domesticated animal. They have been bred for centuries to be companions to human beings. Some fish are bred to live in tanks -- gold fish, etc. Some birds that you purchase at pet stores are not able to survive outside in cold climates that are different from their native habitats. One has to use common sense.

There is a difference between a wild animal and a domesticated one. I am not suggesting one throw their poofy Pekinese outside to fend for itself in an area rife with coyotes and eagles. My Karelian Bear Dog is a primitive breed of dog that, although domesticated, could survive on its own in the wild because it still maintains many of the instincts of its wolf ancestors. Not all dogs could. However -- a bear or a timber wolf would survive just fine. A goldfish would die if tossed into the atlantic ocean -- but a killer whale could survive there.
 
  • #217
A dog is a domesticated animal. They have been bred for centuries to be companions to human beings. Some fish are bred to live in tanks -- gold fish, etc. Some birds that you purchase at pet stores are not able to survive outside in cold climates that are different from their native habitats. One has to use common sense.

There is a difference between a wild animal and a domesticated one. I am not suggesting one throw their poofy Pekinese outside to fend for itself in an area rife with coyotes and eagles. My Karelian Bear Dog is a primitive breed of dog that, although domesticated, could survive on its own in the wild because it still maintains many of the instincts of its wolf ancestors. Not all dogs could. However -- a bear or a timber wolf would survive just fine. A goldfish would die if tossed into the atlantic ocean -- but a killer whale could survive there.
I am guessing this one won't make it in the wild. Apparently it lost almost all of his teeth.
 
  • #218
Yes, that's correct, that's the kind of platform it was, in shallow water. I've been to SeaWorld in San Diego many times in my life and seen the Shamu show many times. It's not like she was pulled over a wall or such, which is what was implied.
We go to see the whales jumping and to get splashed, that's entertainment, watching someone get killed is not- that's mental anguish, and not what I expect to see when I pay to go to Sea World.

I don't go to any of these kinds of places to be entertained, I go to learn that which I know nothing of. To marvel at the majesty of the animal world. Since I don't care to jump in the ocean to watch them up close and personal, I am quite thankful there are places to go to see their beauty. My kids are as well.
 
  • #219
A dog is a domesticated animal. They have been bred for centuries to be companions to human beings. Some fish are bred to live in tanks -- gold fish, etc. Some birds that you purchase at pet stores are not able to survive outside in cold climates that are different from their native habitats. One has to use common sense.

There is a difference between a wild animal and a domesticated one. I am not suggesting one throw their poofy Pekinese outside to fend for itself in an area rife with coyotes and eagles. My Karelian Bear Dog is a primitive breed of dog that, although domesticated, could survive on its own in the wild because it still maintains many of the instincts of its wolf ancestors. Not all dogs could. However -- a bear or a timber wolf would survive just fine. A goldfish would die if tossed into the atlantic ocean -- but a killer whale could survive there.

Killer whales that have only been held for a short period of time (less than a year) have successfully been returned to the ocean. These were all young whales that were rescued after beaching themselves, or were injured after becoming entangled in a fishing net or something and needed only to be nursed back to health. When they were taken in it was with the intention from the beginning to return them to the ocean. This was not the case with Tillikum when he was captured in 1983. The idea from the beginning was to hold him in captivity and that is now what he is accustomed too.

It was already proven with Keiko that a killer whale that had been held in captivity for 20 odd years could NOT survive on his own when returned to the ocean. They spent over 6 years and $23 million dollars in an attempt to set him free and he NEVER even learned to feed himself nor was he able to integrate with a pod of wild killer whales. Regardless of the number of times he was set free on his own he ALWAYS returned to the company of humans and relied on them for food and social companionship. The only reason they ever attempted it was because of environmentalist, conservationist and the public who all THOUGHT that he wanted to be free and were sure he could survive on his own. It was a disaster that ended in a slow painful lonely death for Keiko by pneumonia brought on by malnutrition and one that never had to happen.

Now many people are shouting for the release of Tillikum and all of the other killer whales in captivity so I did a little research on the whales at SeaWorld Florida. These are the killer whales presently living there gathered from the latest statistics available from: http://www.orcahome.de/orcastat.htm

Tillikum (M)- captured Iceland 11/83

Katina (F) - captured Iceland 10/78
--daughter Kalina (F) - born in captivity 9/85
--daughter Nalani (F) - born in captivity 9/06

Kayla (F) - born in captivity 11/88 (mother was Kenau captured Iceland 10/76 died 8/91)

Trua (M) - born in captivity 11/05
(mother was Takara, born in captivity 7/91 making him a second generation captive born killer whale)

Taima (F) born in captivity 7/89 (mother was Grudrun captured Iceland 10-76 died 2-96)
--daughter Malia (F) born in captivity to Taima 03/07 (second generation captive born)

Katina has been in captivity for 31+ years and Tilikum has been in captivity for 26+ years. All of the other killer whales have been born in captivity with all but two of them from mothers that were also born in captivity and have never even seen the ocean.

Question - How long would ANY of these killer whales live if we just turned them loose in the ocean?

Answer - Only as along as it took them to starve to death!!!!

IMO we need to LEAVE THE WHALES ALONE!!
 
  • #220
I just got done reading all the post and I must so Wow on some of them. Let me just say Dawn who I knew very well when she lived in Merrillville Indiana loved those whales and would never ever ever want any harm to come to them!
 

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