FL - Fendra Molme, 11 months, dies in hot car while parents attend church, Palm Bay, May 2023 *arrest*

  • #221
Florida law requires rear-facing car seats for children under 1 yo. The baby was 11 months old. The car may also have had tinted windows. All hot car deaths are very sad.

JMO
Same law here. That being said, there's "the law" and then there's "what people do". Not always the same thing.
Either way it still doesn't matter since the mother in this case only retrieved her laptop, Bible and robe from the car, and left the baby there.
 
  • #222
I am still a little confused, lot of little things not adding up but that's typical in most cases, I guess.
Who was responsible for getting the 2 yr old out of the car seat? Seems to me that if mom was busy getting her purse and laptop and robe, etc., then why didn't one of the other kids let mom know baby was still buckled in the seat. You would think that an 8 yr old would be aware if someone else was coming to get the baby, right?
I don't know.... it just seems strange to me all the way around.
 
  • #223
I am still a little confused, lot of little things not adding up but that's typical in most cases, I guess.
Who was responsible for getting the 2 yr old out of the car seat? Seems to me that if mom was busy getting her purse and laptop and robe, etc., then why didn't one of the other kids let mom know baby was still buckled in the seat. You would think that an 8 yr old would be aware if someone else was coming to get the baby, right?
I don't know.... it just seems strange to me all the way around.
The way I read the arrest affidavit the mother, father and the witness all referred to "church members" who usually take care of the children, including the baby. None of them named a particular person who was regularly in charge of collecting the children and bringing them inside the church.

I suspect that if the older kids got out of the car without telling the mother the baby was still in the car seat then the routine was such that they too expected church members to come and fetch the baby. Of course it's the mother's responsibility to check but yeah, it seems like most kids would say something.

According to the CCTV footage no church members approached the car that day. The mother is claiming that she assumed someone got the baby as opposed to forgetting about the baby so I guess it doesn't matter if the kids reminded the mother about the baby or not. She had no plans to take the baby out of the car seat and inside but instead assumed someone else would do it.

So frustrating - if only she had taken a minute to make sure all the kids were in the church this thread wouldn't exist. MOO

 
  • #224
I am not a fan of large families, where parents make children responsible for other children. Granted, I had four kids, it is fine to have older kids play with younger ones while Mom is making dinner.

Making children responsible for taking siblings out of car seats, giving them baths, whatever...it is beyond their age appropriate skill level. Maybe a 15 or 16 year old. But not an 8 year old.
 
  • #225
The way I read the arrest affidavit the mother, father and the witness all referred to "church members" who usually take care of the children, including the baby. None of them named a particular person who was regularly in charge of collecting the children and bringing them inside the church.

I suspect that if the older kids got out of the car without telling the mother the baby was still in the car seat then the routine was such that they too expected church members to come and fetch the baby. Of course it's the mother's responsibility to check but yeah, it seems like most kids would say something.

According to the CCTV footage no church members approached the car that day. The mother is claiming that she assumed someone got the baby as opposed to forgetting about the baby so I guess it doesn't matter if the kids reminded the mother about the baby or not. She had no plans to take the baby out of the car seat and inside but instead assumed someone else would do it.

So frustrating - if only she had taken a minute to make sure all the kids were in the church this thread wouldn't exist. MOO

Also, according to the affadavit, the mother normally parked right in front of the church. Not only was she very late, she also parked off to the side somewhere. Why? Especially if she expected help from the church members.
Would t it have helped if she had been in her usual spot? Perhaps they would have been more likely to see her and provide assistance.

I’m honestly wondering now if she might be suffering from postpartum depression. Or, Could she have some other mental health problems? Not to mention maybe she was really overwhelmed, what with Four young children. That’s more than a handful, while trying to minister to a church congregation ? Seems like a lot too much.

And why did she claim she saw an older member walk in with the children?
 
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  • #226
"When they arrived, the 3 older kids got out of the vehicle as she opened the trunk and began removing her laptop and bible. She then went to the front passenger seat to get her robe.

She observed the 3 older kids walking into church with one of the older church ladies. The defendant stated she believed J1 was with a church member, which was the normal routine every Sunday."


Here is where things are a little muddled for me:

"The 3 older kids got out of the vehicle as she opened the trunk and began removing her laptop and bible"

They are 2, 5 and 8. So I assume the oldest had to help the 2 yr old get out of her seat?
It just seems odd the older ones wouldn't remember to get the baby out too, or remind mom. 5 and 8 year olds are very observant and protective of littler siblings.

" She then went to the front passenger seat to get her robe. "

"She observed the 3 older kids walking into church with one of the older church ladies."


So there was no communication between her and the 3 other kids, before they walked away? No one mentioned the baby?
I really think the older ones would know the baby was still in the car when they walked off. It seems weird. Did they assume Mom was getting the baby out?


The defendant stated she believed J1 was with a church member, which was the normal routine every Sunday."

But how did she think the church member got the child, if she wasn't there at the car? I get the impression that mom was frazzled by being late and was distracted as she was grabbing her things for work. She saw the oldest 3 walking inside and was planning to get the usual babysitter to retrieve the baby but then just assumed it would happen like usual?
Maybe the 8 year old tried.

Some religious families are very particular on “not talking back to Mom and Dad”.

Maybe the child couldn’t get that far in the conversation.
 
  • #227
Didn't the father get out of that same car?
Someone said he was already there.

they are both ministers as well, so this seems plausible. someone had to start the service on time,
 
  • #228
I can't help but wonder if the mom had papers and a purse that she remembered to bring in with her.
Well, this is problematic too (the robe etc).

anything that throws you off your routine is the problem.

if you’re used to “picking up three things and three things only”… it sometimes goes into muscle memory territory IMO.

like, how most of my work pants are zip and single-button fly; but if you throw an extra fastener into the mix, I’ll often walk out of the office restroom and have my zipper down, because I’ve already “made two motions in the general direction of my waist”; one of which in my mind has included the zipper.
 
  • #229
Well, this is problematic too (the robe etc).

anything that throws you off your routine is the problem.

if you’re used to “picking up three things and three things only”… it sometimes goes into muscle memory territory IMO.

like, how most of my work pants are zip and single-button fly; but if you throw an extra fastener into the mix, I’ll often walk out of the office restroom and have my zipper down, because I’ve already “made two motions in the general direction of my waist”; one of which in my mind has included the zipper.
But that’s not the case here. The mother didn’t forget about her baby, she knowingly went inside alone because she assumed a church member would fetch the baby even though no one met her at the car.

Faulty memory didn’t cause the baby’s death, the mother was too busy to make sure her baby was in safe hands. I’m sure her actions will haunt her for the rest of her life.
 
  • #230
MOO, just thinking out loud here. I was thinking of scenarios that could possibly fit with both "accounts" of what happened, the statements by witnesses and also the CCTV footage. I'm definitely not intending to excuse anyone who had responsibility to this precious baby.. just trying to somehow make sense of this.

It seems that all the initial events (pulling up, older kids getting out, getting items from the trunk etc) happened very quickly. Speculation, but perhaps as soon as she was into the parking spot, the older kids started jumping out, and mom ran back and opened the trunk, which could have blocked her from seeing the kids perhaps run up closer to the building. Perhaps the adult the older children went inside with was close to the building instead of approaching the car. Maybe when mom closed the trunk she saw the kids already basically inside with the adult, and assumed the baby had also been picked up by the adult while her view was blocked by the open trunk. Though I would have thought she'd check to be sure. And I don't know how that fits in with getting her robe out of the interior of the car itself and not noticing the baby still there :(

I'm trying so hard to understand and I know that's probably not possible.
 
  • #231
I am not a fan of large families, where parents make children responsible for other children. Granted, I had four kids, it is fine to have older kids play with younger ones while Mom is making dinner.

Making children responsible for taking siblings out of car seats, giving them baths, whatever...it is beyond their age appropriate skill level. Maybe a 15 or 16 year old. But not an 8 year old.
Agreed. However, I know of families with several children and the oldest seems to be looking out for the younger ones, it is their own ideas, not of the parents. Not getting baths, etc.... that should still be up to mom or dad.
IMO, there is nothing wrong with this, it is simply that big sister or brother loves helping out.
 
  • #232
Also at first I really couldn't understand why she reported to have removed the car seat from the car first and then took the baby out of the car seat. But then I was thinking about my grandson's car seat when he was 11 months old, it was the kind that clicks into a base and can be quickly removed by pushing in on the handle and pulling upwards. To get him out of the car (and to potential life saving fresh air) it would have been quicker to remove the whole car seat and then unbuckle him once he was in the fresh air. JMO.

It's making me tear up just writing out an example. I can't imagine what this poor sweet baby went through and what all who love her are going through now.
 
  • #233
The details of what happened at the mother's arrival to church is chilling, because I can see it playing out as described. Mother arrives almost an hour late, is frazzled, parks in a different spot (Why??), and in the hustle of unloading and getting everyone and everything into the church, a string of assumptions were made. Assumption #1: that what happened every Sunday would still happen, despite being so late (maybe those who would normally take infant were already settled in church?). #2: That as the other 3 children walked in with a church member, the 4th baby was with the adult church member. #3 when she didn't see the infant, she assumed the child was sleeping and not visible because of that. #4 father made same assumption.
My only questions, from the information in the affidavit, is why she didn't see the infant in the vehicle when she got her last load of stuff? And why did she park in a different space?

I'm going to guess for shade. Total speculation, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Which is not good for the defendant, because it seems to imply she knew it was hot and intended to leave the baby - for a little. Since there were no church members near the car, why would the mom think that church members would leave their own service (when she was late and they were on time) and magically show up and take the baby? It so far doesn't sound like the mom had any visual or verbal contact with the caretakers she expected to have the baby.

The mom knew where the baby was, the last time she saw her. Why would she assume that some other person had gone and retrieved the baby?

I think it was reckless not to have adult communication about the whereabouts of a one year old who was last seen by her main caretaker that morning (Mom) in the carseat, in the car.

Easy to second guess this tragedy, a very hard lesson for the parents to learn. I hope they heal from this and I really don't think the mom should have to serve prison time. Just my opinion.

But she should have consequences.

JMO
 
  • #234
I am still a little confused, lot of little things not adding up but that's typical in most cases, I guess.
Who was responsible for getting the 2 yr old out of the car seat? Seems to me that if mom was busy getting her purse and laptop and robe, etc., then why didn't one of the other kids let mom know baby was still buckled in the seat. You would think that an 8 yr old would be aware if someone else was coming to get the baby, right?
I don't know.... it just seems strange to me all the way around.
Why would an 8 yr old child assume Mom didn't know baby was still in her car seat? We still don't know why the mother was running so late. We don't know if she routinely transported the children or did her husband? He was a minister already there teaching Sunday school. Why wasn't the 8 yr old already there with Dad attending Sunday School?

Too much we still don't know about the circumstances of this tragedy.

JMO
 
  • #235
MOO, just thinking out loud here. I was thinking of scenarios that could possibly fit with both "accounts" of what happened, the statements by witnesses and also the CCTV footage. I'm definitely not intending to excuse anyone who had responsibility to this precious baby.. just trying to somehow make sense of this.

It seems that all the initial events (pulling up, older kids getting out, getting items from the trunk etc) happened very quickly. Speculation, but perhaps as soon as she was into the parking spot, the older kids started jumping out, and mom ran back and opened the trunk, which could have blocked her from seeing the kids perhaps run up closer to the building. Perhaps the adult the older children went inside with was close to the building instead of approaching the car. Maybe when mom closed the trunk she saw the kids already basically inside with the adult, and assumed the baby had also been picked up by the adult while her view was blocked by the open trunk. Though I would have thought she'd check to be sure. And I don't know how that fits in with getting her robe out of the interior of the car itself and not noticing the baby still there :(

I'm trying so hard to understand and I know that's probably not possible.
It is hard to understand, and we can all struggle to come up with acceptable theories.... but it does not answer the questions.

I don't think it is a matter of remembering, or assuming someone else had taken the baby, and I have not formed a solid opinion as to what exactly happened, but.... this happens too often, and it should not. Children are innocent, they are precious and parents should always be aware of what is going on around them and with them.
 
  • #236
These cases infuriate me. If the mom opened any doors to the car, she would see the car seat. I also don’t believe the 8 year old didn‘t mention to mom that the baby was still in the car.
There is a lot to take in here. I still have questions. 1) Why was mom almost an hour late for church? I know getting multiple children ready to go takes time and any minor hiccup can throw your plans off. She was considerably late on a special date for the church. Perhaps she was still getting things ready for her portion of the service?
2) Why did she park in a different spot? In my opionin, the reasons I could come up with are that her spot was taken, the door she entered allowed quicker entrance into a certain part of the church, or so she wouldn't have had to walk (late) down the aisle of the church to meet her husband at thr altar) 3) Was there a particular church member who always got thr baby and looked after her or was it a group job?
I can see mom running on routine (although some pieces were missing) and thinking of getting everyone inside. But I still have questions. I hope this family gets all the support and care they need, including any children who may have witnessed the aftermath.
 
  • #237
Agreed. However, I know of families with several children and the oldest seems to be looking out for the younger ones, it is their own ideas, not of the parents. Not getting baths, etc.... that should still be up to mom odr dad.
IMO, there is nothing wrong with this, it is simply that big sister or brother loves helping out.

I have a problem with it. Children are not competent to take care of babies, toddlers or other young children. They are meant to be siblings, not parents or caregivers. They need to develop in their own way. It's fine if an older child is asked to help out; not fine if the older child is given full responsibility for younger sibs. For a 1 year old, it would appropriate for a 12 year old to watch/play with the baby for 10-15 minutes while Mom or Dad gets ready for something. Beyond that is beyond a 12 year old's average attention span. Sure, big bro or sis may *love* helping out, but there are competencies involved in childcare. It's a big responsibility on many levels.

We see in this case that the adult mother, herself, was lacking in what I would call situational awareness (which becomes more complicated with each additional person in the party, no matter their ages - but much more complicated with small children).

Where I live, no one is supposed to babysit anyone until they are at least 14. I think if a family is going to designate a 14 year old as a caregiver, that child should go through classes on babysitting, child safety, and have a phone app that sends information to the adults in charge, prompting the 14 year old child to have to send pictures and interact. I also think the children who are turned over to a 14 year old should be at an age where they can speak, make their wants known, and no younger than 3-4. Even then, that's pushing it - for more than hour.

Good parents don't risk putting too much responsibility on one of the older children (it's awful for siblings to feel responsible if a sibling dies or goes missing or is hurt on their watch). Having a 14 year old help a responsible adult as part of family expectations is good

Putting a child in charge of younger children, especially on an ongoing basis, is not good, IMO.

Families with several children make their own choices, of course. I always feel for my own students, many of whom have been responsible for sibs for a decade before they even get to college (that's right; they've been babysitting/doing child care services since age 7-10).

I should also add that prior to the advent of Civilization (a mere 6000 years ago - less if you aren't from Iraq or Iran), it appears it was common to have 3-4 adults per toddler. Yep. That's how the !Kung-san people lived (for a long time, and what all their folklore says; we are all descended from a group that lived like the !Kung and was the largest group (10,000 people) in the world at the time (50,000 years ago; we were hunter-gatherers for 250,000 years before that - and hunter gatherer moms rarely have more than 2 living children, spaced about 4-5 years apart).

Lots of food increased women's fertility, but I don't think that was what nature had in mind. We are a very difficult-to-raise species, IMO.

IMO.
 
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  • #238
I'm going to guess for shade. Total speculation, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Which is not good for the defendant, because it seems to imply she knew it was hot and intended to leave the baby - for a little. Since there were no church members near the car, why would the mom think that church members would leave their own service (when she was late and they were on time) and magically show up and take the baby? It so far doesn't sound like the mom had any visual or verbal contact with the caretakers she expected to have the baby.

The mom knew where the baby was, the last time she saw her. Why would she assume that some other person had gone and retrieved the baby?

I think it was reckless not to have adult communication about the whereabouts of a one year old who was last seen by her main caretaker that morning (Mom) in the carseat, in the car.

Easy to second guess this tragedy, a very hard lesson for the parents to learn. I hope they heal from this and I really don't think the mom should have to serve prison time. Just my opinion.

But she should have consequences.

JMO
It’s a conundrum IMO. We read about cases where caregivers abuse or severely neglect a child and the details are horrific. This case is also horrific but it’s the result of a seemingly loving mother who made a fatal error.

Do we punish her as harshly as we would a mother who regularly failed to care properly for her child? Do we give her a stern talking to and send her on her way? I’m just glad I’m not the person who must determine what happens.
 
  • #239
It’s a conundrum IMO. We read about cases where caregivers abuse or severely neglect a child and the details are horrific. This case is also horrific but it’s the result of a seemingly loving mother who made a fatal error.

Do we punish her as harshly as we would a mother who regularly failed to care properly for her child? Do we give her a stern talking to and send her on her way? I’m just glad I’m not the person who must determine what happens.

You always ask the hard questions (the best questions). Love is a complex behavior. I think this is above "stern talking to" level, but if there's no evidence of neglect in the past, I do think we have to have compassion for this woman. I'm bothered by a 3 hour gap between rushing into the church and ending the service. It's not like the mom and dad in this story were forced to stay at the pulpit for 3 hours, apparently without ascertaining where exactly their youngest child might be.

How scatter-brained is this mom? Is there something else going on? I'm glad I don't have to decide this one, either. I would hate to see her taken away from her other children in the midst of this trauma.

People who inadvertently cause the deaths of children already have a really hard road ahead (most of them). I hope the other children are able to get counseling and a stable environment.

I guess my questions (if I were on a jury) would be aimed at understanding whether the mom realized that 10 minutes in a hot car can kill a baby. Ten minutes. What was she thinking was going to happen if three older kids went off to church and she, the mom, was getting stuff out of the car (but not the baby?) Was she already in brain freeze due to exhaustion and a hectic, almost impossible, job of dealing with four small children while attempting to attend and lead a three hour event?

How we solve this via punishment, I don't know. It's almost as if the mom needs a mom to supervise her. IMO.
 
  • #240
Every car I have had for the last decade has had a safety system that plays a loud chime if I shut it off and something heavy is in the back seat.

It will be mandatory in all cars by 2025 but its already in most new cars now.

BOTH of them forgot the baby and sat in church for 3 hours??? this one stretches credibility a little
My new car has this alert and locks and unlocks the door once when we exit. My kids are 17 and 19 and we tell them to get out or are you out every time.
 

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