FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen-Donna Adelson Upcoming Trial - *4 Guilty* #26

[Zedzded]

For one thing, it helps shield against an ineffective counsel claim.

Good point.

 

[Knitpicker]

Donna Adelson seeks to limit testimony from investigators in murder trial

New motions filed by Donna Adelson's defense seek to limit testimony about phone calls, texts and emails in her murder trial.

www.courttv.com

Carl S says that this could delay the trial again.
And not good things to say about prosecutors.
He says if they aren’t agressive enough to arrest and try the other Adelsons, then someone else should.

 

[Teche]

She should have thought harder about missing that protein. Dan could have lived and she could have lived with her protein. I actually heard her when she voiced this list and it was comical. It was almost like a spoof.

I guess Donna thought jail would be a country club and have gourmet meals and a tennis court. She’ll have a reality check when she is sentenced to prison.

 

[Zedzded]

Carl S says that this could delay the trial again.
And not good things to say about prosecutors.
He says if they aren’t agressive enough to arrest and try the other Adelsons, then someone else should.

But if they arrest WA now she won't be compelled to testify even with her immunity. What is the motivation to testify when she is facing life imprisonment. They could charge her with contempt of court, but that carries no weight when someone has been arrested. It makes sense to arrest her after she's served her purpose and testified in her Mum's trial.

 

[LinasK]

I guess Donna thought jail would be a country club and have gourmet meals and a tennis court. She’ll have a reality check when she is sentenced to prison.

Yeah, you don't get Club Fed like Elizabeth Holmes did when you are the head of a murder conspiracy.

 

[Luna20]

But if they arrest WA now she won't be compelled to testify even with her immunity. What is the motivation to testify when she is facing life imprisonment. They could charge her with contempt of court, but that carries no weight when someone has been arrested. It makes sense to arrest her after she's served her purpose and testified in her Mum's trial.

Is there confirmed proof or evidence of which they can arrest her now? I thought that there were a few things that needed to happen to arrest her.

 

[Luna20]

Innocent people flee when there are warrants out for their arrest. That is not consciousness of guilt. Consciousness of guilt is typically where there isn't a warrant, but the person knows themselves to be guilty and acts accordingly. It could be argued that it would be a normal reaction to flee when a warrant is issue irregardless of innocence or guilt.

Aside from her attempt to leave the country it was the minuatie around her flee attempt that raises suspicion. Asking people and googling which countries do not have extradition treaties to the US. Trying to get an emergency visa issued ASAP. One way flights. Moving money out of the country. etc etc Booking an international flight in itself was fine.

This is like some kind of black comedy, where the criminals are beyond dumb and that's where the laughs come from. They go from disaster to disaster...

I’m a bit confused about this too. How does no warrant prove guilt or anything? No warrant is a nonexistent thing. As in, there isn’t one issued to start with. It’s of no matter, a vapor. Leaving the country when there isn’t a warrant doesn’t constitute guilt.

 

[Zedzded]

I’m a bit confused about this too. How does no warrant prove guilt or anything? No warrant is a nonexistent thing. As in, there isn’t one issued to start with. It’s of no matter, a vapor. Leaving the country when there isn’t a warrant doesn’t constitute guilt.

Someone can still fear arrest even if there is no warrant. However, getting on a plane and going for a holiday doesn't show consciousness of guilt. However DA did the following:

- contacted Scott Radius about travelling to countries which could not extradite to the US
- contacted Travel Agencies about travelling to countries which could not extradite to the US
- Googled travelling to countries which could not extradite to the US
- requested an emergency visa as they had to leave the US immediately
- booked a one way open-ended ticket
- booked the ticket through a travel agency so their names would not come up on the travel booking sheet
- moved money to offshore accounts
That behaviour shows the actions of someone fearing arrest. This is not the behaviour of an innocent person with no concerns about being arrested. Thus a warrant being issues or not issued is irrelevant.

If they had booked a return ticket to Spain, told all their friends they were going for a holiday and posted all over social media then they would be fine. It was the urgency and subterfuge with which they went about arranging their trip that shows consciousness of guilt. They didn't even tell friends or family.

 

[IQuestion]

I’m a bit confused about this too. How does no warrant prove guilt or anything? No warrant is a nonexistent thing. As in, there isn’t one issued to start with. It’s of no matter, a vapor. Leaving the country when there isn’t a warrant doesn’t constitute guilt.

Agreed. However, leaving the country when one (Donna A) is a "named co-conspirator" is consciousness of guilt, IMO. And, she was leaving the country with another person who was also named as a co-conspirator, Harvey. Right? Has Harvey A been deposed? It would be interesting to
hear his take on why there was such a rush to leave the country?
I also have a theory on why Harvey A. asked Scott R. not to relay information to Charlie. Charlie already knew his parents were planning to flee. Hence the conversation with MM (HA's cousin) about "I should have taken more vacations" and "the green cell looks like Viet Nam." And, MM's promise
to watch over his parents. In my opinion, Harvey just didn't want Scott R. to mention it to Charlie on a RECORDED jail conversation. CA had been funneling money to Scott R for a long time, with the
reason being the purchase of property. BIG PROBLEM....Americans can not own property in VNam!
So the big question is why did CA stay? Who was advising him to stay? Did he really think he had such a hold on KM's silence that he would get off Scott free?? (Pardon the pun.) And (sorry for all the questions) are/were all the conversations with Donna A and her "life coach" considered privileged communications?
So, just to be clear, "Don't mention any of this to Charlie." was because CA already knew, but didn't
want it to be spoken and recorded on a jail house call.

 

[Luna20]

Someone can still fear arrest even if there is no warrant. However, getting on a plane and going for a holiday doesn't show consciousness of guilt. However DA did the following:

- contacted Scott Radius about travelling to countries which could not extradite to the US
- contacted Travel Agencies about travelling to countries which could not extradite to the US
- Googled travelling to countries which could not extradite to the US
- requested an emergency visa as they had to leave the US immediately
- booked a one way open-ended ticket
- booked the ticket through a travel agency so their names would not come up on the travel booking sheet
- moved money to offshore accounts
That behaviour shows the actions of someone fearing arrest. This is not the behaviour of an innocent person with no concerns about being arrested. Thus a warrant being issues or not issued is irrelevant.

If they had booked a return ticket to Spain, told all their friends they were going for a holiday and posted all over social media then they would be fine. It was the urgency and subterfuge with which they went about arranging their trip that shows consciousness of guilt. They didn't even tell friends or family.

‘Fear’ isn’t what I responded to, the word Fear isn’t anywhere in your post. I was referring to your comment about consciousness of guilt without a warrant.

 

[Knitpicker]

But if they arrest WA now she won't be compelled to testify even with her immunity. What is the motivation to testify when she is facing life imprisonment. They could charge her with contempt of court, but that carries no weight when someone has been arrested. It makes sense to arrest her after she's served her purpose and testified in her Mum's trial.

Right. He also thinks it’s wrong that Harvey is not on the witness list. The state could be saving information on Harvey.

 

[Knitpicker]

But if they arrest WA now she won't be compelled to testify even with her immunity. What is the motivation to testify when she is facing life imprisonment. They could charge her with contempt of court, but that carries no weight when someone has been arrested. It makes sense to arrest her after she's served her purpose and testified in her Mum's trial.

PS I see Phil Markel thinks WA moved to Denver. My understanding is that JE (her boyfriend) had a place in Denver aside from Austin. Someone who seemed “in the know” mentioned that he had a vacation place there (for skiing and such). That was almost a year ago. So I wonder if he may be confusing Georges other place.

 

[Knitpicker]

Agreed. However, leaving the country when one (Donna A) is a "named co-conspirator" is consciousness of guilt, IMO. And, she was leaving the country with another person who was also named as a co-conspirator, Harvey. Right? Has Harvey A been deposed? It would be interesting to
hear his take on why there was such a rush to leave the country?
I also have a theory on why Harvey A. asked Scott R. not to relay information to Charlie. Charlie already knew his parents were planning to flee. Hence the conversation with MM (HA's cousin) about "I should have taken more vacations" and "the green cell looks like Viet Nam." And, MM's promise
to watch over his parents. In my opinion, Harvey just didn't want Scott R. to mention it to Charlie on a RECORDED jail conversation. CA had been funneling money to Scott R for a long time, with the
reason being the purchase of property. BIG PROBLEM....Americans can not own property in VNam!
So the big question is why did CA stay? Who was advising him to stay? Did he really think he had such a hold on KM's silence that he would get off Scott free?? (Pardon the pun.) And (sorry for all the questions) are/were all the conversations with Donna A and her "life coach" considered privileged communications?
So, just to be clear, "Don't mention any of this to Charlie." was because CA already knew, but didn't
want it to be spoken and recorded on a jail house call.

Maybe DA wanted CA to take the fall for the murder? So they convinced him to stay? And then when he was convicted they ran. I understand they got the tickets a week before they fled. Then other times and I believe Campbell said they got the tickets a day prior? Do you remember?

 

[ch_13]

I believe that HA&DA just panicked when Charlie was convicted and decided they needed to flee ASAP. I don't think DA set up Charlie, just that the family (except perhaps for Wendi) were all convinced that Charlie was going to skate. It's clear from his recorded conversations in prison, CA thought he had all the angles covered and the jury would have no trouble buying his (ridiculous) story.

Rashbaum should have sat them down and given them realistic odds, but maybe he believed it too?

 

[Luna20]

Agreed. However, leaving the country when one (Donna A) is a "named co-conspirator" is consciousness of guilt, IMO. And, she was leaving the country with another person who was also named as a co-conspirator, Harvey. Right? Has Harvey A been deposed? It would be interesting to
hear his take on why there was such a rush to leave the country?
I also have a theory on why Harvey A. asked Scott R. not to relay information to Charlie. Charlie already knew his parents were planning to flee. Hence the conversation with MM (HA's cousin) about "I should have taken more vacations" and "the green cell looks like Viet Nam." And, MM's promise
to watch over his parents. In my opinion, Harvey just didn't want Scott R. to mention it to Charlie on a RECORDED jail conversation. CA had been funneling money to Scott R for a long time, with the
reason being the purchase of property. BIG PROBLEM....Americans can not own property in VNam!
So the big question is why did CA stay? Who was advising him to stay? Did he really think he had such a hold on KM's silence that he would get off Scott free?? (Pardon the pun.) And (sorry for all the questions) are/were all the conversations with Donna A and her "life coach" considered privileged communications?
So, just to be clear, "Don't mention any of this to Charlie." was because CA already knew, but didn't
want it to be spoken and recorded on a jail house call.

All good points. No question in this specific scenario that they had/have consciousness of guilt, whether it was with or without a warrant. Harvey is going to be interesting, he is in an unusual position, unlike the others. I do believe that he would take the bullet for DA.

Do you know why they wouldn’t allow DA conversations in? She knows that the calls are very incriminating and she is scared, but they are hard evidence.

CA in my opinion thought that he would sail through this. I think he thought that he and his family were immune to getting caught (smart and elite). He was literally shocked when he heard the ruling. ‘How can this happen to me’ sort of thing.

We should have some of these answers soon!

 

[Zedzded]

‘Fear’ isn’t what I responded to, the word Fear isn’t anywhere in your post. I was referring to your comment about consciousness of guilt without a warrant.

Yesh I just addressed that. You don't need a warrant to demonstrate consciousness of guilt?

 

[Zedzded]

Maybe DA wanted CA to take the fall for the murder? So they convinced him to stay? And then when he was convicted they ran. I understand they got the tickets a week before they fled. Then other times and I believe Campbell said they got the tickets a day prior? Do you remember?

CA was convicted 6th Nov and DA was arrested 13th Nov. I think they were expecting CA to be found not guilty and the flee to Vietnam was a last minute panic.

 

[Knitpicker]

I believe that HA&DA just panicked when Charlie was convicted and decided they needed to flee ASAP. I don't think DA set up Charlie, just that the family (except perhaps for Wendi) were all convinced that Charlie was going to skate. It's clear from his recorded conversations in prison, CA thought he had all the angles covered and the jury would have no trouble buying his (ridiculous) story.

Rashbaum should have sat them down and given them realistic odds, but maybe he believed it too?

Unless he knew…she alluded that Rashbaum would tell CA something, I thought that meant that they fled.

 

[ch_13]

Unless he knew…she alluded that Rashbaum would tell CA something, I thought that meant that they fled.

I meant that Rashbaum should have told the Adelsons that CA would likely be convicted, rather than leave them with false hope.

I pretty sure Rashbaum did know that DA intended to flee. From a pretrial argument.

Rashbaum told Everett, the presiding judge in both of the Adelsons prosecutions, that she applied for a Visa with the State Department, used her own passport and talked to her lawyers about it “to make sure she wasn’t committing a crime.”
(Emphasis added)

Judge allows state arguments about Donna Adelson's attempted flight to Vietnam

Donna Adelson appeared Friday at the Leon County Courthouse on a flurry of pre-trial motions ahead of a scheduled Sept. 16 trial.

www.tallahassee.com

 

[Zedzded]

I meant that Rashbaum should have told the Adelsons that CA would likely be convicted, rather than leave them with false hope.

I pretty sure Rashbaum did know that DA intended to flee. From a pretrial argument.

Rashbaum told Everett, the presiding judge in both of the Adelsons prosecutions, that she applied for a Visa with the State Department, used her own passport and talked to her lawyers about it “to make sure she wasn’t committing a crime.”
(Emphasis added)

I think DR had said to them "you might make it out in time." i.e you might be able to flee the country before a warrant is issued.