FL - Jennifer Joyce Kesse, 24, Orlando, 24 January 2006 *NamUs #MP1342* #14

[scruffydog]

To me..the poi"s hair looks like a "stacked" haircut, like a Dorothy Hamill haircut back in the day. This was popular for women-I never saw it on a man. This leads me to wonder whether the poi was actually a woman?

 

[Valiant]

Just so everyone knows, and for the record going forward ... lawyers can not lie to the court.

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/rule_3_3_candor_toward_the_tribunal/

They could face charges of contempt of court and perjury resulting in imprisonment, and face being disbarred.

And that’s why good defense lawyers never ask their client if they are guilty or even for full details. Just enough detail to build doubt in a jury’s thoughts.

 

[fsngruv]

And that’s why good defense lawyers never ask their client if they are guilty or even for full details. Just enough detail to build doubt in a jury’s thoughts.

You might be referring to the SODDI defense, and in order to do that, there is a legal requirement for the defense to provide admissable evidence connecting another suspect not just speculation or heresay. Kohlberger's defense attempted this strategy but failed to offer evidence so it was denied by the judge pretty early on.

 

[ekardh]

If Jennifer was abducted in her own car, does the fact it was dumped only a mile from her condo, suggest it was one of the workers? Why was it left so close to the abduction point if not for the fact the abductor needed to return there?

 

[Valiant]

If Jennifer was abducted in her own car, does the fact it was dumped only a mile from her condo, suggest it was one of the workers? Why was it left so close to the abduction point if not for the fact the abductor needed to return there?

One of the workers, a neighbor, a random person ( or acquaintance) who left their car nearby, anyone who needed to get to that neighborhood.
But yeah this makes a worker seem a real possibility.

 

[flgrl017]

It hasn’t been proven that Jennifer was placed in her car after she was abducted. I think it’s likely Jennifer drove to wherever she was abducted and/or killed and whoever is responsible either moved the car or had it moved. I base this off the items inside her car appear to be undisturbed. The dvd player in the back seat was still buckled in like Rob placed it. There was also a big Pilates ball on the backseat. There were several small items (sunglasses, pills, card) still sitting on the area between the front two seats. The car also wasn’t cleaned that thoroughly. You can visibly see dust on the area between the seats so that tells me it wasn’t recently wiped down. On The Search, the detective admitted there were over 100 finger prints found inside it. I think if she was abducted and placed inside her vehicle there would either be a lot of forensic evidence or signs of a thorough cleaning. With Jennifer’s car there neither is true that I can tell.

I don’t think the crime scene is her condo either. The car wasn’t there when the manager checked the lot for Drew around 11:30 am. The car didn’t arrive at HOTG until 12 pm. HOTG is a 5 minute drive so it wasn’t driven to directly there. It also wasn’t driven much due to the gas level.

I think Jennifer drove somewhere either Monday evening or Tuesday morning and was attacked somewhere besides the Mosaic most likely by someone she knew. Wherever this place is would have led to her killer so that is why I think the car was moved. I don’t think Jennifer was inside it after she was abducted and/or killed. I think another vehicle was involved. She may have been standing beside it when she was attacked. I go between those marks on the hood being from her abduction or not. I wish they would conform it with forensics. If she was attacked on the hood of the car there would likely have been some sort of bodily fluid on it. Even if she didn’t bleed there would have likely been saliva or mucus. I honestly not convinced that Jennifer was ever abducted. She may have just been murdered and the body hidden.

 

[Piknik]

I don't think she was abducted by a single person. I think it would have taken two people to force her into a car.

 

[cckp72]

It hasn’t been proven that Jennifer was placed in her car after she was abducted. I think it’s likely Jennifer drove to wherever she was abducted and/or killed and whoever is responsible either moved the car or had it moved. I base this off the items inside her car appear to be undisturbed. The dvd player in the back seat was still buckled in like Rob placed it. There was also a big Pilates ball on the backseat. There were several small items (sunglasses, pills, card) still sitting on the area between the front two seats. The car also wasn’t cleaned that thoroughly. You can visibly see dust on the area between the seats so that tells me it wasn’t recently wiped down. On The Search, the detective admitted there were over 100 finger prints found inside it. I think if she was abducted and placed inside her vehicle there would either be a lot of forensic evidence or signs of a thorough cleaning. With Jennifer’s car there neither is true that I can tell.

I don’t think the crime scene is her condo either. The car wasn’t there when the manager checked the lot for Drew around 11:30 am. The car didn’t arrive at HOTG until 12 pm. HOTG is a 5 minute drive so it wasn’t driven to directly there. It also wasn’t driven much due to the gas level.

I think Jennifer drove somewhere either Monday evening or Tuesday morning and was attacked somewhere besides the Mosaic most likely by someone she knew. Wherever this place is would have led to her killer so that is why I think the car was moved. I don’t think Jennifer was inside it after she was abducted and/or killed. I think another vehicle was involved. She may have been standing beside it when she was attacked. I go between those marks on the hood being from her abduction or not. I wish they would conform it with forensics. If she was attacked on the hood of the car there would likely have been some sort of bodily fluid on it. Even if she didn’t bleed there would have likely been saliva or mucus. I honestly not convinced that Jennifer was ever abducted. She may have just been murdered and the body hidden.

I totally agree with you on this. Rather than the workers, I think it was someone (or more) from her work.

 

[ekardh]

I don't think she was abducted by a single person. I think it would have taken two people to force her into a car.

Why? There are countless cases of women being forcibly abducted by one person. Israel Keyes forced Samantha Koenig from the coffee shop and across the street into his pickup.

 

[ekardh]

I think Jennifer drove somewhere either Monday evening or Tuesday morning and was attacked somewhere besides the Mosaic most likely by someone she knew.

Wasn't Jennifer's car seen leaving the parking lot at 7:40am that morning, with what looked like two people fighting over the wheel? That would rule out Monday evening, if true.

The perpetrator was most likely someone local or one of the nearby workers. There would be no reason to move Jennifer's car to HOTG otherwise. They could've dumped it anywhere if they wanted to. They couldn't risk driving it back to Mosaic, as Jennifer's friends/family or police might be there, so they dumped it off someplace close enough to their home or worksite.

I don't buy that Jennifer was taken in another vehicle, then the perp came back and drove her car a mile away. For what reason? To throw off the investigation? Seems like an unnecessary risk to me.

 

[flgrl017]

Wasn't Jennifer's car seen leaving the parking lot at 7:40am that morning, with what looked like two people fighting over the wheel? That would rule out Monday evening, if true.

The perpetrator was most likely someone local or one of the nearby workers. There would be no reason to move Jennifer's car to HOTG otherwise. They could've dumped it anywhere if they wanted to. They couldn't risk driving it back to Mosaic, as Jennifer's friends/family or police might be there, so they dumped it off someplace close enough to their home or worksite.

I don't buy that Jennifer was taken in another vehicle, then the perp came back and drove her car a mile away. For what reason? To throw off the investigation? Seems like an unnecessary risk to me.

That is an unconfirmed sighting, and I don’t think the condition her car was found in supports there being a struggle inside it. I think the small items sitting on the console between the seats would have likely been knocked into the floor if there was a struggle inside it. I also think there would be a lot of physical evidence or signs of a thorough cleaning if there was a struggle inside it. I think the couple that witnessed the car swerving exiting the lot saw another mid size black sedan. That’s a common car type and color. It also important to note that if that was Jennifer’s car then within a few seconds it would have gone either right or left on Conroy Blvd. It is a busy road so I believe there would have been other sightings of her car especially at that time of day. Jennifer’s car driving around that part of Orlando when it was light outside with people struggling inside would have been quite a scene that imo several people would have reported. I think it is likely the driver of this car was driving distracted while leaving the lot. People eat, drink, play with radio, put on seatbelt, put on lipstick, etc in the mornings especially before pulling onto the main road. There was also a guard house right there. It hasn’t been said if it was manned Monday evening to Tuesday morning. A resident living there stated it was manned 80% of the time. With all that being said if there were signs of a struggle inside Jennifer’s car or signs of a thorough cleaning then I would give more credence to this sighting. As far as I can tell neither of those two things occurred. There were also sightings of her car Monday evening. I don’t find those credible either. I do believe eye witness reports need to be corroborated with other evidence.

I believe the car was moved to HOTG because it was parked somewhere that would lead police to her killer. The car was never going to be returned to Mosaic. There was a gate and guard house that was manned most of the time according to a resident there. HOTG is also directly north and very close to the Lake Ellenor area. I don’t think the vehicle used to transport her after she was abducted/killed is known. This vehicle would have had a lot of physical evidence or it would have been scrubbed.

 

[Leprikawn]

Why? There are countless cases of women being forcibly abducted by one person. Israel Keyes forced Samantha Koenig from the coffee shop and across the street into his pickup.

Yeah a loaded gun is a great motivator. So is a knife.

 

[ekardh]

That is an unconfirmed sighting, and I don’t think the condition her car was found in supports there being a struggle inside it. I think the small items sitting on the console between the seats would have likely been knocked into the floor if there was a struggle inside it. I also think there would be a lot of physical evidence or signs of a thorough cleaning if there was a struggle inside it. I think the couple that witnessed the car swerving exiting the lot saw another mid size black sedan. That’s a common car type and color. It also important to note that if that was Jennifer’s car then within a few seconds it would have gone either right or left on Conroy Blvd. It is a busy road so I believe there would have been other sightings of her car especially at that time of day. Jennifer’s car driving around that part of Orlando when it was light outside with people struggling inside would have been quite a scene that imo several people would have reported. I think it is likely the driver of this car was driving distracted while leaving the lot. People eat, drink, play with radio, put on seatbelt, put on lipstick, etc in the mornings especially before pulling onto the main road. There was also a guard house right there. It hasn’t been said if it was manned Monday evening to Tuesday morning. A resident living there stated it was manned 80% of the time. With all that being said if there were signs of a struggle inside Jennifer’s car or signs of a thorough cleaning then I would give more credence to this sighting. As far as I can tell neither of those two things occurred. There were also sightings of her car Monday evening. I don’t find those credible either. I do believe eye witness reports need to be corroborated with other evidence.

The sighting is unconfirmed and uncorroborated, but I don't believe that is a reason to dismiss it and assume that it was a different car. Didn't the witness claim that it looked like two people struggling for control of the vehicle? That would seem to suggest it was more than just someone eating or putting on their lipstick. If Jennifer's car had only been on the main road for a short distance, that would have restricted the amount of visibility for further witnesses.

 

[flgrl017]

The sighting is unconfirmed and uncorroborated, but I don't believe that is a reason to dismiss it and assume that it was a different car. Didn't the witness claim that it looked like two people struggling for control of the vehicle? That would seem to suggest it was more than just someone eating or putting on their lipstick. If Jennifer's car had only been on the main road for a short distance, that would have restricted the amount of visibility for further witnesses.

That is the google earth street view from the stop sign in which the couple was stopped when they saw the black car swerve coming out of Mosaic. I honestly think it would be hard to see how many people were inside a swerving car from that distance. Especially since they turned before the black car to get all the way to Conroy. They must have only seen it for a second or two.

That area is very busy and Conroy is 4 lanes. The other roads around that area a busy too. I don’t think it would be possible for an abductor to drive around fighting with Jennifer without several people noticing and reporting it. It’s in the middle of a big city during the morning rush. I also don’t think the car showed evidence of a struggle or cleaning. I think this struggle needs to be corroborated by actual evidence since eye witness accounts are often unreliable. Since we only have one report I highly doubt it was Jennifer’s car the couple witnessed.

 

[ekardh]

That is the google earth street view from the stop sign in which the couple was stopped when they saw the black car swerve coming out of Mosaic. I honestly think it would be hard to see how many people were inside a swerving car from that distance. Especially since they turned before the black car to get all the way to Conroy. They must have only seen it for a second or two.

That area is very busy and Conroy is 4 lanes. The other roads around that area a busy too. I don’t think it would be possible for an abductor to drive around fighting with Jennifer without several people noticing and reporting it. It’s in the middle of a big city during the morning rush. I also don’t think the car showed evidence of a struggle or cleaning. I think this struggle needs to be corroborated by actual evidence since eye witness accounts are often unreliable. Since we only have one report I highly doubt it was Jennifer’s car the couple witnessed.

The problem is you're assuming that Jennifer fought the whole time. What if there was an initial struggle when the car first pulled out but the driver subdued Jennifer? All it might have taken was pointing a gun or knife at her. After that, we just have two people in a car. And if the driver was smart, he would've stayed off the main roads anyway.

The eyewitness might have been mistaken, but it seems they saw something more than just a car swerving for that to stick in their memory.

 

[flgrl017]

The problem is you're assuming that Jennifer fought the whole time. What if there was an initial struggle when the car first pulled out but the driver subdued Jennifer? All it might have taken was pointing a gun or knife at her. After that, we just have two people in a car. And if the driver was smart, he would've stayed off the main roads anyway.

The eyewitness might have been mistaken, but it seems they saw something more than just a car swerving for that to stick in their memory.

Yes I do think it would have been challenging for an abductor to fight with Jennifer, drive, and find a knife or gun to subdue her for the rest of the ride all at the same time.

There is also a curve in the drive coming out of mosaic. It’s hard to tell from google earth the photos. It’s much more noticeable in real life. That would be another challenge for the driver.

 

[ekardh]

Yes I do think it would have been challenging for an abductor to fight with Jennifer, drive, and find a knife or gun to subdue her for the rest of the ride all at the same time.

There is also a curve in the drive coming out of mosaic. It’s hard to tell from google earth the photos. It’s much more noticeable in real life. That would be another challenge for the driver.

So challenging that it might have caused the car to swerve on the way out?

 

[flgrl017]

So challenging that it might have caused the car to swerve on the way out?

If she was able to fight then the car would have already been swerving while the perp was dealing with trying to subdue her foe the remainder of the journey. So yes I think it would be challenging to subdue Jennifer and keep her subdued if she was fighting for her life in a moving vehicle.

 

[Myserty64]

This case hasn't been solved because:

No crime scene
No evidence
No witnesses

My best guess as to the car being left at HTOG is it seemed a good idea at the time.
What has become of the mysterious DNA that was discovered nearly 20 years after the crime.

It is claimed Jennifer was in her condo at 10pm on the Monday night talking to Rob.
Would she have really gone out that late after a long drive back that morning and then working all day.

Then there was Bo the bloodhound who is said to have tracked a scent back to the broken fence at Mosaic.
That was discounted almost immediately. Why?

There was a party hosted by Jennifer's brother at her condo on the Saturday night she was in St.Croix.
It was claimed an ex boyfriend was there. True or false?

This is a truly frustrating case which includes a video of a POI that is equally frustrating.

 

[ekardh]

If she was able to fight then the car would have already been swerving while the perp was dealing with trying to subdue her foe the remainder of the journey. So yes I think it would be challenging to subdue Jennifer and keep her subdued if she was fighting for her life in a moving vehicle.

We don't know how it played out. What if Jennifer had struggled initially when the driver was pulling out, and he uses a gun or knife to subdue her, causing it to swerve. Jennifer might have complied for the rest of the drive, and that's why no one else saw the vehicle driving erratically. This sighting is unconfirmed, but I think it's unwise to dismiss it because it doesn't fit your particular theory.