Found Deceased FL - Lane Graves, 2, Walt Disney World, 14 June 2016 #1

[human]

I agree. Although I know that there are gators in Florida waters, I would not have expected a gator there. I am from the Pacific NW, which is basically the opposite of Florida, and my gator knowledge is cursory. Yes, I could do a ton of research but should I not be able to trust a world-class destination to be a bit more proactive in protecting guests? As long as they post signs, why not make them fully informative?

My heart is broken for Lane and his family. Better signage - and not scheduling a kid-magnet activity on a dangerous waterway - might have saved him.

When you are getting tourists from all over to come to your tourist destination, I feel you are required to do more than just take the money. My daughter went with her hubby , his parents and two kids to Disney this winter. It was her MIL's dream to go to Disney. The trip cost $14,000. My neice has gone several times and it cost over $6000 for her family

When my daughter and grandchildren went, alligators never crossed anyone's mind.

I live in a foreign country now that is paradise. We get cruise ships and three different people drowned over the course of a few months. Most people were outraged at the cruise lines for not informing people about the risks. We were
also outraged that there were no signs indicating that the public beach here has a very strong current sometimes.

These things were remedied. Watching people swimming trying to find the missing swimmer; watching rescue boats go back and forth looking for the missing swimmer; watching the helicopter go round and round looking for the missing swimmer brings it home.

Listening to the residents who searched and the first responders after the search was distressing. If you want rhe money tourists bring, you have a responsiblity to treat them more than a cash cow.

 

[sonjay]

Well, Disney's alligator catchers need some more training, because there were five found in just a few hours last night.

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And there's plenty more where those came from. That lagoon will never ever be free of alligators.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Gators over 4 feet are removed.

Well, it seems they missed this one..........

 

[human]

BBM. I don't know anything about Disneyland's dangerous rides. (I was only there once, many many years ago.) But IIRC, the measles risk is due to all the anti-vaxxer Americans on the left coast, plus all the tourists from countries where vaccinations aren't as common.

Should Disneyland put up signs warning people about the risk of measles? Is that a reasonably foreseeable risk that Disneyland should warn people about? Is Disneyland negligent if they don't warn people about the measles risk?

In many countries in Europe, maybe all, you do not have to vaccinate your children. But then you are no longer entitiled to the free health care. Your choice,

 

[LinasK]

And there's plenty more where those came from. That lagoon will never ever be free of alligators.

Since it's man-made is it an option to shut down the lagoon?

 

[sonjay]

Interesting. I feel such sadness for this accident & the family must be beyond distraught.

What I was thinking about is what variables lie in determining common sense & what is reasonable due to location.

For instance, if this death of this toddler went to court (lawsuit) in Kansas with a jury of their peers, oh boy, I bet Disney would be at fault & sued. Look at the reverse: if this death of this toddler went to court in Florida with a jury of their peers, oh boy, I bet Disney gets off the hook.

Floridians know that Florida is a beautiful state with a unique topography, weather, wildlife. I live here & my area is considered the Lightening Capitol of the World. Sharks migrate in the intracoastal during mating season which is in shocking numbers. At times I have snakes & iguanas in my garage. We have mosquitos with Zika virus. There's not enough signs & fences to protect everyone from nature. Adults must be aware of their surroundings. Risks are everywhere. I rarely rely on signage to know my risks.

RIP lil' guy

Moo

BBM. That's in important point, TasteOfHoney. I don't either. Regardless of signs or lack thereof, each of us is our own first line of defense. And for children, their parents are their first line of defense. No one, but no one, cares about my life as much as I do, and no one, but no one, cares about my child's life as much as I do. I don't rely on signs. Signs are put there by lawyers. I prefer to rely on common sense, and learning about the various risks at the places I go and the things I do.

What if there had been signs, but teenagers stole them during the night? Or vandals defaced them to the point they couldn't be read? Or a person is unable to read English? Or inattentive parents let their young pre-reading children go out to the beach area unsupervised? Signage is one layer of safety, but ultimately, safety always begins with the individual (or, for young children, the parents).

 

[LaborDayRN]

Yeah, but tourists(especially a 2 year old) don't realize that "No Swimming" is because of alligators. I certainly wouldn't have known that or from the tiny little signs. Disney really needed to have better signs- not minimize an accident waiting to happen, simply because it's "the happiest place on Earth". Also, maybe this beach should be closed off entirely by fencing since alligators can crawl up on the beach. I agree with the poster who said it should be rocky, not enticing white sand and holding movies on the beach.

I was just recently taking a short hike in a local county park. The trail goes back through some hills that are covered with California Oaks. Really lovely. At the beginning of the trail is a large sign warning of mountain lions. I'm well aware that California has mountain lions as I've lived here all my life, but seeing the sign really gets your attention and keeps you aware.

 

[LinasK]

Why should Gator Warning signs be any worse fro Disney than ride restrictions, like you must be x height to ride, or don't ride if you are pregnant, have heart problems, back problems, etc...

 

[LaborDayRN]

Not just regionally... Disney gets visitors from all over the world. Would tourists from Finland or Morocco or Greece know to watch for alligators?

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Exactly. A "no swimming" sign is one thing. They need a sign with a picture of an alligator (some visitors don't speak english but will recognize an alligator) and information stating that it is DANGEROUS to enter the water!

 

[Sonya610]

GRAPHIC:
The gator was probably waiting for decomposing of the body per Jeff Corwin.

I didn't know that about gators until reading it here.

Pretty amazing that they can protect a kill for DAYS until it can be presumably be shaken or bit into suitable pieces. They are amazing animals, the fact they have survived and thrived despite a massive amount of human predation, development, pollution, invasive species etc....proves it.

I watched a documentary on crocodiles a while back and that was eye opening. The way they mate, and the way the mothers care for and call to their young. The mothers are like hens leading chicks around, talking to them and watching out for them. And when the dry season hits the way the mothers/babies congregate in the few watering holes left (so the babies can survive). The majority of females leave their babies alone at the watering hole but one or two big mama crocs always stay behind to protect the whole batch until the rainy season comes.

 

[LaborDayRN]

I am sincerely curious....do you see a lot of signs in motels or bed & breakfasts featuring images of scorpions warning people to take precautions? Or signage by realtors when they are showing homes--there may be scorpions?

I'm curious how businesses in various regions handle dangerous wildlife risks; in particular with those areas with tourism. And I'm curious what is the definition from the legal term "reasonable, foreseeable"?


RIP lil guy. Prayers to the family.

Moo

Whether it's legally required or not, I would think it would be ethically responsible to make sure that all patrons of the resort and it's properties be fully aware of the dangers.

As a side note, Scorpions are venomous but rarely deadly:

One undeniable fact is that scorpions are venomous. Their venom is the cause of widespread fear and at the same time, fascination. Most species possess a sting comparable to that of a bee sting, but a few scorpion species have a venomous sting that can be lethal to humans.

http://www.orkin.com/stinging-pests/scorpions/poisonous-scorpions/

 

[LaborDayRN]

Gah I told you not to! I was trying to save you!!


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You save me. I took your word for it!

 

[sonjay]

I didn't know that about gators until reading it here.

Pretty amazing that they can protect a kill for DAYS until it can be presumably be shaken or bit into suitable pieces. They are amazing animals, the fact they have survived and thrived despite a massive amount of human predation, development, pollution, invasive species etc....proves it.

I watched a documentary on crocodiles a while back and that was eye opening. The way they mate, and the way the mothers care for and call to their young. The mothers are like hens leading chicks around and watching out for them.And when the dry season hits the way the mothers/babies congregate in the few watering holes left (so the babies can survive) and then the majority of mothers leave but one or two always stay behind to protect all of the babies in one place.

They are pretty amazing creatures that were seriously endangered just a few decades ago.

Did you know they're tool-users? We've long known that primates use tools, but gators (and crocs) do too.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...rs-use-sticks-as-lures-to-attract-waterbirds/
http://floridazone.blogspot.com/2013/12/tool-using-gators-and-crocs.html

 

[Eloise]

I was talking about this with my husband and brother-in-law and our neighbor and his wife, while we were down at the river watching the sunset. The river that's full of gators. We see gators every time we're down there.

All of us agreed that a family from Nebraska couldn't be expected to know anything about gators, any more than Floridians should be expected to know that elk and moose can be very dangerous.

I've got warring factions within myself.

On the one hand, it seems logical that Disney should have posted signs that warned specifically about gators, especially since they held child-oriented activities like movie night out there on the beach.

On the other hand, every single one of us should always be aware of potential risks and dangers. That body of water..... is that safe to wade in? safe to swim in? Are there rip currents? Steep drop-offs? Sharks? Gators? Snakes? That cliff.... is it safe to approach the edge? That hiking trail.... are there bears in the area? That pile of rocks..... is it likely there are rattlesnakes in there? That cute-looking elk..... should I go closer to try to get a picture of it?

We've got such a nanny state going on, we've come to expect that everything is safe unless there are barriers and warning signs -- but it's not. Life isn't safe. We always need to stay aware of that fact.

I for one wouldn't allow my young child to go swimming or wading in a body of water at night unless I knew for certain it was safe. Any more than I would allow him to dive into water that I didn't know the depth of, or go wandering down an unfamiliar hiking trail or play in traffic or any of the multitudes of other things that can be dangerous to children & adults alike.

I think you're absolutely right, but I think this is a special case because of its location. Disney. A place that is marketed as happy, safe and family friendly.
I think it is entirely reasonable for this family to have not thought for even a second that at Disney there were alligators that could take and drown their son from the shoreline of a lagoon by the resort.
Just about anywhere else, no. But everything about Disney is curated and managed. Or at least, appears to be and is sold as such.

ETA I would have though Disney too risk averse to have not at least had some warning signs at the lagoon as an absolute minimum.

 

[Sonya610]

Nothing will bring Lane back, but if I understand correctly, Disney is in for a massive lawsuit. There was a movie showing on the beach, is that right? There should have been gator warning signs, not just "no swimming," especially in the evening/at night when gators tend to feed. A gator will grab and go, they're so fast, they grab dogs from sea walls in a flash. A beach is a far easier situation for them to stalk.

It's so sickening and I'm angry at Disney. I understand that this lagoon is part of a wildlife preserve and Disney can't remove the gators, but they should have warnings posted and enforced.

JMO but Disney has an army of attorneys on staff and over the years they likely mulled this over a thousand times.

They didn't post signs for a reason. There is absolutely no way this was an "oops" we totally didn't think this could ever in a million years happen oversight.

Somewhere along the line it was decided that a settlement would be more palatable than ugly "Stay Out! Alligators!" signs IF a death or serious injury occurred. Or, more likely, the cost of a barrier would exceed estimated settlements.

Personally I think it is the latter, construction to prevent it was cost prohibitive and if they posted signs it could make a settlement even worse since they knew there was a real danger.

 

[sonjay]

JMO but Disney has an army of attorneys on staff and over the years they likely mulled this over a thousand times.

They didn't post signs for a reason. There is absolutely no way this was an "oops" we totally didn't think this could ever in a million years happen oversight.

Somewhere along the line it was decided that a settlement would be more palatable than ugly "Stay Out! Alligators!" signs IF a death or serious injury occurred. Or perhaps the cost of a barrier would likely exceed estimated settlements.

I swear I read somewhere earlier in the thread that other locations on that lagoon do have signs that specifically mention alligators. The Polynesian, I think, might have been mentioned in that respect.

If that's true, it makes me wonder why they would have alligator warning signs at one resort but not at another.

I've been to Disney -- the various parks, Fort Wilderness, and some of the resorts -- a gazillion times, but I've never personally noticed such signs. Perhaps because, as a Floridian myself, I don't tend to spend time on a lagoon beach when I'm there.

 

[becciboo81]

BBM. That's in important point, TasteOfHoney. I don't either. Regardless of signs or lack thereof, each of us is our own first line of defense. And for children, their parents are their first line of defense. No one, but no one, cares about my life as much as I do, and no one, but no one, cares about my child's life as much as I do. I don't rely on signs. Signs are put there by lawyers. I prefer to rely on common sense, and learning about the various risks at the places I go and the things I do.

What if there had been signs, but teenagers stole them during the night? Or vandals defaced them to the point they couldn't be read? Or a person is unable to read English? Or inattentive parents let their young pre-reading children go out to the beach area unsupervised? Signage is one layer of safety, but ultimately, safety always begins with the individual (or, for young children, the parents).

Honestly the pious touting of common sense is kind of annoying. Its not common sense for a person to know about alligator behavior if they haven't dealt with or come across alligators before. What is common sense to you is not common sense to everyone. Common sense refers to something that is universal, like not jumping in front of moving car. Or touching something red or smoking. So please stop insinuating the family should have known better because it's "common sense". They were at a movie showing put on by the resort. Exactly where they were invited to be.

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[cluciano63]

I am anti-lawsuit culture, but I feel Disney is negligent here for sure. If there are ANY wild people-eating beasts in an area where the public goes, signs need to be posted. They know they have alligators. They should be required to make sure the public is fully aware. And the signs should be in many languages. Jmo

 

[SweetT]

Where I live , there are warning signs everywhere.. Bears are in this area put your food away in food storage, with many pictures of such. Then in Yellowstone the same thing about the animals and the buffalo's etc. So I would think signs would be pretty much mandatory as there are a lot of folks not from Florida that would not or may not know that such a danger exists in the waters there. Even with the signs all around Yellowstone etc people are always doing stupid stuff, trying to pet a Buffalo, getting too close to things, trying to put a kid on a wild animal. There is no excuse for these things IMO but yea signs showing alligators should be a must IMO especially in a place known for tourists and little kids.

 

[monster12]

I am glad they found his body for peace of mind, however, sad ending to a sad week in Orlando. I just don't understand how people don't think alligators would be in Florida. I feel this is something you learn as a part of geography in school....what animals live in the desert, Everglades, plains, etc. It's disturbing and sad to think people have to be told and warned continuously about dangers. I'm not referring to just this incident but unfortunately they don't listen to the warnings anyways. People will continue to go round and round placing blame but sometimes things are just freak accidents. I could say they shouldn't have been in the water (depending on the story you've heard) or why the child was near the water that late at night. But either way that means nothing now. Hopefully everyone just becomes more aware of their surroundings no matter the situation or location. [emoji20]


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