FL - Mass Shooting at Pulse Nightclub, Orlando 12 June 2016 #5

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  • #121
What about the victims? What about the importance of them being able to identify and name their attackers?

What about the seriousness of facts being redacted, edited, changed? That is dangerous business. That is a slippery slope to news being altered control of what the public knows and doesn't know and then we don't receive the true facts. That leads to....I will stop there. I don't want anyone else deciding what I know, what I think.... and yes, we do need to announce what they are, because they ARE. Not announcing doesn't change anything. Knowledge is POWER, but ignorance.... well that is something else.

<modsnip>

The truth does matter. The truth always matters, no matter if the perpetrator feels glee or whatever by hearing his name.

<modsnip>

My discussion relates to what has been said about other mass shooters. People wanted no publicity.

Is it right? I think the publicity does inspire.

But the conspiracy theories start. LE did not release a lot of what they found re Adam Lanza.

The Kennedy files are sealed for how long?

Edward Snowden says a lot goes on as well as the Wiki leaks guy, We did not know about bin Laden until mission accomplished.

During the Cold War there was so much stupid stuff. Maybe there is now too.
 
  • #122
  • #123
oops sorry
 
  • #124
Patience Carter spoke at a televised news conference at the hospital.

Orlando survivor: Gunman tried to spare black people
CBS News June 14, 2016

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/orlando-survivor-patience-carter-gunman-tried-to-spare-black-people/

“Carter described a bloody scene in the bathroom of Pulse nightclub, where survivors had sought refuge from the rampage that started out in the club, only to find themselves locked in with Mateen just before police breached a wall to get at him.

As she was lying on the floor looking over the "piles" of bloody bodies in the bathroom, she said she "made peace with God and within myself."

Carter said she asked God to take her away so the pain would stop.

After a while, police began shouting warnings to survivors to move away from the bathroom walls so they could blow them open, Carter said the gunman carefully executed a final three people, including a stranger who was shielding her.

"If it wasn't for that person shielding me it would've been me shot and I wouldn't be sitting here today," Carter said.

After the breach, she said the firefight was terrifying, and the explosives broke the pipes in the walls, sending water flooding into the bathroom. Carter said she was afraid of drowning "in bloody water," as police attempted to clear the room of any remaining danger.

While some have questioned the police decisions that night, Carter said she did not based on what she heard him saying, adding: "He wasn't going to stop killing people till he was killed."“​
 
  • #125
  • #126
Obama will not go to war, He will not be on the lines. He will not come back maimed or commit suicide. I do not think we want to continue sending off kids to be destroyed.

But he can work on taking out the guy like it was with bin Laden

Respectfully to disagree or agree I just don't see Obama sending anyone to war. ISIS consist of several people who hate United States. JMO
 
  • #127
Someone who knew him, can't remember if it was a former classmate or co-worker, described him as a racist. I thought he might have been trying to call them out of the stalls, thinking they might be safe then just shoot them. If he was after gays, I doubt he cared what color or religion they were.

With the different people coming forwarded saying he talked badly about all types. Seems as if he adapted himself to whatever sitiation he was in, in an attempt to fit in. You have to wonder if this guy ever said anything positive.
 
  • #128
Someone who knew him, can't remember if it was a former classmate or co-worker, described him as a racist. I thought he might have been trying to call them out of the stalls, thinking they might be safe then just shoot them. If he was after gays, I doubt he cared what color or religion they were.

All he had to do , like he had before, when someone responded was shoot in the stall-- he did not.
 
  • #129
BBM. I have differing views of this than you. This is said with all respect to you and your views.

Not letting victims name their attacker is demeaning, demoralizing and wrong. It makes me think of someone who has been raped and then not listened to, maybe just acknowledging that yes they were raped, but we don't want to know who it was or why it happened. It's not important.

It's important to the victim to be able to put names and faces and the true facts out there.

Not naming the enemy and not acknowledging why the enemy did it is wrong on many levels ....for one thing it is like an ostrich hiding it's head in the sand. If I can't see it, it's not real. It IS real, and it's still there even if you can't see it now that your head is in the sand. Actually, it makes it much easier to chop off that ostrich's head now. It doesn't change anything if you hold your hands over your ears chanting I can't hear I can't hear you you over and over again. You many NOT hear what they said, but it was still said. Denying it and not naming it does not change what it really is.

Another problem I have with this is I don't need the government to decide what I should know and think. I'm fairly well educated, can read all of the facts and then reach conclusions of my own. I don't have to be told what to think, or just be fed someone else's opinions. Have you read Fahrenheit 451? I had to read it in college. It's a novel about the future in which books are illegal to own. The government decided that books are dangerous because then people learn about things they don't want them to know, and the government wanted to control what people learned and thought. Fahrenheit 451 is the temperature at which paper burns. Anyway..... today when I watched that press conference I thought about that book. I felt manipulated. I thought about how once upon a time journalists and anchors were impartial and unbiased and actually gave you ALL of the information so you could draw your own conclusions, and not skew and slant things so you only hear what they want you to hear.

And lastly, I don't think that the enemy is downtrodden and feeling cheated by a country that won't utter those words, or the fact that the 911 calls were redacted. On the contrary, I think they love it. It probably confirms their belief we are weak, inferior, scared and that is not going to turn things around. I think they are laughing at us and our government. In fact, if I were in a group of people that were terrorizing and killing another group, and I knew that the group I was doing this to knew it was us and why we did it and yet wouldn't name us or our reasons or really try to stop us, and actually went to far as to say oh it's just road rage or work violence or a hate crime, I think I would be feeling powerful, invincible and unstoppable and I would be thinking wow what weaklings.

This is not a kid that wants attention and because they didn't get any they are going for negative attention. Our president refusing to let anyone say radical Islamism is not going to make them pack up their toys and go home. IMO.

So exactly how, in your opinion, are we going to turn this around by our president, government and people refusing to admit who this enemy is, and why the shooter did what he did? In all respect. I am curious.

That too is I how I felt- there also in their early ttenties, they are not IMO, generally speaking following all the wars we are in --they are snapshoting pics of french toast!!

Wonderfully written post TY!
 
  • #130
  • #131
I wonder if the redaction was publicized now because special forces are prepared to take this guy out like they did with bin Laden.

I imagine it may be known where this guy is. And I will not honor him with writing his name.

I kinda think they don't care if they are formally named or not. Most have one agenda- hating the west so they OK.
 
  • #132
It now sounds like some of the victims might have actually been killed by the police so maybe this won't actually be America's worst mass shooting; not as far as the criminal at least.

With this kind of mentality, no one would ever try to help. What if I hit the wrong person. I think I'll walk away. There is NO WAY to carry out this kind of mission and be able to pick and choose who is the target or bad guy.

So what is the alternative? When 911 happened, the one thing I obsessed on was Flight 93 where the passengers chose to crash into a field. What I thought about and obsessed about was would I have been brave enough to make that decision? To kill myself to save others? I'm afraid I believe in Batman and Santa Clause. I am afraid I would have thought "something will happen to change things... wait. Someone will save us... Wait. I am not sure I would have the strength and guts to fly that plane into a field to save others. Yet, they had to sacrifice 44 lives to prevent the plane from flying into the White House or the Capitol. Imagine if they couldn't do that. I think about that guy who called his wife who was pregnant to tell her good-bye. Would I have that courage? I don't know. I like to think I could... but really... how many people would do that?

Imagine if the police decided to do nothing because they might hit innocent victims.

Not an easy decision to make or live with.

I wish there was always a way to save everyone without innocent victims caught in the crossfire.... I know everyone wishes that.

The one thing we can do is not blame these courageous people that are willing to stand in the front line and be killed for anything bad that happens when they DO step up there ready and willing to die....

I find NO blame or wrongdoing here... ONLY the murderous murderer is to blame.... everyone else, be it police, club goers, whoever is a victim.

NO-ONE chose this except the murderer. Thank goodness there ARE some people that are willing to try and do something to stop it. Those brave people don't deserve to be accused of anything.

I thank them.

They are my heroes.
 
  • #133
Transcript release may escalate fight to release Mateen’s 911 call

~ Media outlets have requested 911 calls from Pulse shooting
~ City of Orlando has said no
~ Some advocates say that’s a violation of public records laws and creates unnecessary doubt


Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/article84915717.html#storylink=cpy

“Who was Omar Mateen? What happened inside Pulse nightclub during a shooting that left 49 people dead, not including Mateen himself?

City, state and federal officials aren’t helping the public answer that question.

The city of Orlando has so far refused to release 911 tapes from the shooter, citing several exemptions that some public records experts say don’t hold up to scrutiny.

Journalists have also battled with county and state agencies over Mateen’s school records, his brief stint as a a Florida Department of Corrections officer, and emergency calls from his family home that date to the turn of the millennium.

“As a rule, when government clamps down on access to information, it causes more questions and more concerns than if they went ahead and released the information,” said Barbara Petersen, president of the St. Petersburg-based First Amendment Foundation. “Why are they holding onto these records when they don’t have to? It’s creating doubt.”​

More...

Thank you.

I was just wondering in other mass shootings if they released the actual 911 calls/tapes for the public to hear.

I don't think they should be able to keep any 911 call a secret from the public. All it does it make more speculation as to why they are hiding them from the public, imo

I wonder why they are trying to protect his school records? Everyone by now knows he was a total jerk while in school. If there were 911 calls made from the home to police why wouldn't they give that over to the media?
 
  • #134
All he had to do , like he had before, when someone responded was shoot in the stall-- he did not.
He killed three more according to this witness. Someone shielded her from being shot at that time, she is AA.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/orlando-survivor-patience-carter-gunman-tried-to-spare-black-people/
I think he hated everyone. Life didn't turn out the way he thought it should, the world according to his father. I believe he targeted Pulse because he was familiar with it. I think hewas "questioning" and that angered him even more, again because of the father.
 
  • #135
It now sounds like some of the victims might have actually been killed by the police so maybe this won't actually be America's worst mass shooting; not as far as the criminal at least.

It doesn't sound that way to me at all. The ME is just being honest and there is no way to tell because the police also use the same kind of bullets he used in both of his guns. Most of the wounds would have both entry and exit wounds when he used the rifle and some don't even leave any shrapnel inside to be examined by the ME.

I think a lot of the witnesses (victims) can tell everyone it was this terroristic monster who shot everyone.
 
  • #136
"Mateen asked if there were African-Americans in the stall. One man said there were six or seven.

“I don’t have a problem with black people,” Mateen said, according to Carter. “This is about my country. You guys have suffered enough.”

http://fox43.com/2016/06/14/pa-shooting-victim-orlando-gunman-tried-to-spare-black-people/

BBM

This is about my country. Kind of says it all. He didn't identify with America. This was about HIS country. He wasn't American in his heart, mind and soul.

You know how in other attcks commited by real terrorists, behind closed doors their homes are usually adorned with tons of Muslim stuff. They wear the clothing etc.

This guy was born here - his father is highly American, materialsitic. Go back and look at his house )even Bible folks have Christ on the wall or a bible etc.

Even the colors on the wall are different. Prayer matts and stuff all over the place. Extremeists.


His apt was wildly western. The Star Wars thing in two rooms blew my mind- the kid is like three, I dont think he knows Star Wars - this is OM IMO stuff.

If Star Wars the motion picture is not Western .........................Can we imagine the Paris bombers "guarding " a courhouse here in AMerica- that in and of itelf would be abhorent to a real terrorist.

moo

THey were very acclimated and assimilated on all levels imo. OM apt was materialistic, the amount of toys purchased was so American!

Go back and look at the pics of other terrorists place of residecne --the differences are stark

his home had two remote books relating to the religion. There are muslim grocery stores -- his had 5 different types of amerian branded cerials!!

Seeing the home was very telling to me

If this is not Western, capitlaistic I do not know what is!

[video=youtube;kGPpltvEGkg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGPpltvEGkg[/video]
 
  • #137
He killed three more according to this witness. Someone shielded her from being shot at that time, she is AA.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/orlando-survivor-patience-carter-gunman-tried-to-spare-black-people/
I think he hated everyone. Life didn't turn out the way he thought it should, the world according to his father. I believe he targeted Pulse because he was familiar with it. I think hewas "questioning" and that angered him even more, again because of the father.

I am beginning to think the same way Alas. I don't even think he was gay or desired men and that is why he came across as so goofy when he even tried to talk to a gay man. He seemed to be obsessed sexually with women even stalking one for a year. A man who had already had sexual relationships with men wouldn't be so uncomfortable like he was, imo. I do know I have read that psychopaths will become whatever they feel is necessary in order to deceive others.

I think he had been planning this murderous plot for many years and what better way for the victims to let their guard down around him than him pretending to be one of them? I think he fooled them into thinking he was like them when all along he hated everyone of them and everybody else who weren't Muslims. I still think he hit the gay community because he knew how much it would please his father.

IMO
 
  • #138
Thank you.

I was just wondering in other mass shootings if they released the actual 911 calls/tapes for the public to hear.

I don't think they should be able to keep any 911 call a secret from the public. All it does it make more speculation as to why they are hiding them from the public, imo

I wonder why they are trying to protect his school records? Everyone by now knows he was a total jerk while in school. If there were 911 calls made from the home to police why wouldn't they give that over to the media?

The thing that pops into my mind is to protect themselves. All of this information and they just turned a blind eye. The more that is known and public makes us wonder HOW ON EARTH he just constantly kept being cleared and cleared over and over again.

That is what it makes me think, anyway. And I have to say I do believe that illegals and foreign residents are given a pass and seem to have rights that we don't have because it's politically correct. If it had been a born American they would have been watched way more intently and charged and imprisoned faster. Profiling has become this monster that is killing us. IMO
 
  • #139
You know how in other attcks commited by real terrorists, behind closed doors their homes are usually adorned with tons of Muslim stuff. They wear the clothing etc.

This guy was born here - his father is highly American, materialsitic. Go back and look at his house )even Bible folks have Christ on the wall or a bible etc.

Even the colors on the wall are different. Prayer matts and stuff all over the place. Extremeists.


His apt was wildly western. The Star Wars thing in two rooms blew my mind- the kid is like three, I dont think he knows Star Wars - this is OM IMO stuff.

If Star Wars the motion picture is not Western .........................Can we imagine the Paris bombers "guarding " a courhouse here in AMerica- that in and of itelf would be abhorent to a real terrorist.

moo

THey were very acclimated and assimilated on all levels imo. OM apt was materialistic, the amount of toys purchased was so American!

Go back and look at the pics of other terrorists place of residecne --the differences are stark

his home had two remote books relating to the religion. There are muslim grocery stores -- his had 5 different types of amerian branded cerials!!

Seeing the home was very telling to me

If this is not Western, capitlaistic I do not know what is!

[video=youtube;kGPpltvEGkg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGPpltvEGkg[/video]

What do you mean?

QUOTE:

"You know how in other attacks committed by real terrorists"

This terrorist is as real as the nightmares he caused when he shot over 100 gays he perceived as the infidels.
 
  • #140
You know how in other attcks commited by real terrorists, behind closed doors their homes are usually adorned with tons of Muslim stuff. They wear the clothing etc.

This guy was born here - his father is highly American, materialsitic. Go back and look at his house )even Bible folks have Christ on the wall or a bible etc.

Even the colors on the wall are different. Prayer matts and stuff all over the place. Extremeists.


His apt was wildly western. The Star Wars thing in two rooms blew my mind- the kid is like three, I dont think he knows Star Wars - this is OM IMO stuff.

If Star Wars the motion picture is not Western .........................Can we imagine the Paris bombers "guarding " a courhouse here in AMerica- that in and of itelf would be abhorent to a real terrorist.

moo

THey were very acclimated and assimilated on all levels imo. OM apt was materialistic, the amount of toys purchased was so American!

Go back and look at the pics of other terrorists place of residecne --the differences are stark

his home had two remote books relating to the religion. There are muslim grocery stores -- his had 5 different types of amerian branded cerials!!

Seeing the home was very telling to me

If this is not Western, capitlaistic I do not know what is!

[video=youtube;kGPpltvEGkg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGPpltvEGkg[/video]

We just downsized from a big home that we had when our kids still lived with us. We sold it and got a very small cottage type house.Had to get rid of all of our furniture for the move. My husband had very little input with our new furnishings. LOL My daughter and I went to Living Spaces and bought what was on sale. Husband came home from work and said 'good job.' He had very little control over what couches, coffee table and rug we chose.

Maybe his wife chose the furnishings. No one has said she was an extremist, AFAIK.
 
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