FL - Michelle Mishcon, 53, & John Stevens, 59, brutally murdered, Tequesta, 15 Aug 2016 - #2

[glf]

Wow. Everybody has some good things to say, makes for some good discussion. Maybe he got ahold of some laced pot, and whatever extra was there he had a reaction to. From the few people in his circle of friends who have commented, they all seemed to like him, so I have no reason to think somebody he palled around with would fix him a mixed drink laced with weed killer. Kids that age would know something like that could have devastating consequences. I think if somebody was trying to be funny and play a joke on him they would have put laxative in his drink, or maybe a couple of water pills, but nothing poison.
One thing that really stands out to me is the 2 to 3hr walk they went on. His dad KNOWS what heat exhaustion and dehydration are like, and I would think they both would have a bottle of water or a sports drink, or even a pop with them.
Dad is in the medical field, Austin is studying exercise, and neither grabbed something to drink?! That's just stupidity. I need to read up on this synthol. I'm not familiar with it. I feel safe in saying he was probably given charcoal. I also believe he probably started throwing up after he arrived at the hospital. The cooking oil alone would have made me really sick, and then adding another substance that is irritating to the mouth, throat and esophagus on top of the oil should cause anybody to throw up!
Somebody suggested that Austin might have known these people indirectly. The only thing I can think of is thru their daughter. I'm sure at one point her age was mentioned, but I can't remember. I wonder if they had met at college? Other than her, I don't know how they could be connected.

 

[PositiveLight]

I can't help but think he was in a roid rage plus flakka. He constantly said in his videos that he doesn't do drugs.... why say this? Thou protest too much?
He could've easily did something that was laced with it without his knowledge. Watching his videos I see him spiraling. I feel he had a lot of mental issues going on too. Many mental issues do not arise until around 18 yrs old. Him thinking he was a super hero for example. Bi polar disorder + schizophrenia + drugs (self medicating) + steroid use = dangerous situation. Friends could have supplied him with drugs that were laced (without their knowledge). I also wonder if maybe he ingested something out of someone else's garage on his way to the final horrific scene. Just my thoughts and opinions though. I will say this... flakka scares the heck out of me. I don't know how people knowingly ingest it seeing how it has done so many others. The problem I believe is it has SO MANY other names maybe these kids don't realize what it truly is.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[ninij9]

AH is hours away from killing people and he's acting strange to everybody in his family, but apparently the concern is still a semi-mild concern. Everyone is having these little talks with him , or lecturing him, asking him what's wrong with him, and telling him to shape up just hours before he goes berserk on these strangers and kills them.

It reminds me of some tragic movie or play where you watch it progress to the sad ending. Everybody involved thinks their little talk with him is going to straighten him up.

He's acting up, talking strange, he's too quiet and serious, he's not sleeping, he's pacing and acting restless, he's guzzling oil, losing weight lately, and something is wrong and everyone notices it, but for some reason they think all he needs is a little talk.

He must have been feeling incredible distress to say, "I've lost my mind. Help me find it". What's sad is nobody takes him to a doctor in those months or in those two weeks of him acting extremely strange so they say now. All he gets is a long walk, another little talk, and let's go to have a nice dinner at a restaurant.

All just my own observations and bewilderment.

Good post CuriousMe!
I'm so mad at myself because I am actually starting to have compassion for AH. This isn't supposed to happen!!!
I'm angry as all h*ll at his parents for making little of his deteriorating condition. I can't blame the friends, they are just kids too, but dad SAW his behavior at the dental office and elsewhere, and thought it was something they could "beat"? ARGH.

I my beautiful children ever started to behave in an irrational, or unlikely behavior, it wouldn't take me WEEKS to pick up a phone. I am so sad, mad and heartbroken for everyone that has been destroyed by this event. And now I am including Austin. First and foremost the victims and their family, but then for this young man who in my own very humble opinion was very sick with the onset of mental illness (whether caused by steroids or not), who now at the very best will spend life in jail, or may die as well. Mental illness once again is a lose, lose for all. We sure do need help in this Dept.
*Sorry I used your post to rant. I really wanted to thank a good post when all of a sudden the coffee kicked in. [emoji12]

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[SpanishInquisition]

The reason I've been saying I think AH has brain injury is not only can it be caused by liver damage, but the things he's done sound like he could be vegetative/minimally conscious as I haven't heard him doing anything that demonstrates a high level of consciousness:
http://www.msktc.org/tbi/factsheets...ly-Conscious-States-After-Severe-Brain-Injury
Hand squeezing for instance isn't something necessarily done by the brain, but can be a reflex action done by the spinal cord:
ICU staff frequently use simple tests involving movement for information on the brain's function. However, not all movement is directed by the brain; some is a reflex-type movement (which is controlled by the spinal cord). If he/she squeezes your hand, it may only be a reflex.
http://sunnybrook.ca/content/?page=brain-injury-critical-care
If he does have a low level of consciousness due to brain injury, the longer he remains at that level, the worse the prognosis for recovery.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Good post CuriousMe!
I'm so mad at myself because I am actually starting to have compassion for AH. This isn't supposed to happen!!!

With what we know, I don't know that is bad. He could be genuinely mentally ill and through no fault of his own suffered a psychotic break. I think this was somehow triggered drugs, but I don't know that. Right now I'm neutral on him where how I'll feel will depend on if this was a result of him taking drugs, him trying to get himself off drugs or pure mental illness. Having watched his videos, I think he was trying to get off steroids, which if that's the case he'd be criminally culpable, but I think trying to kick drugs is not as bad as taking drugs (like someone drinking and driving) as far as sentencing would go.

 

[glf]

The reason I've been saying I think AH has brain injury is not only can it be caused by liver damage, but the things he's done sound like he could be vegetative/minimally conscious as I haven't heard him doing anything that demonstrates a high level of consciousness:
http://www.msktc.org/tbi/factsheets...ly-Conscious-States-After-Severe-Brain-Injury
Hand squeezing for instance isn't something necessarily done by the brain, but can be a reflex action done by the spinal cord:
ICU staff frequently use simple tests involving movement for information on the brain's function. However, not all movement is directed by the brain; some is a reflex-type movement (which is controlled by the spinal cord). If he/she squeezes your hand, it may only be a reflex.
http://sunnybrook.ca/content/?page=brain-injury-critical-care
If he does have a low level of consciousness due to brain injury, the longer he remains at that level, the worse the prognosis for recovery.

Beings I'm an LPN, I both agree and disagree with some of your statements. Yes, squeezing a hand could just be a reflex, but I think it would be a conscious response to a family member. He has also had a few other responses, and looking at them as a whole, I believe them to be conscious responses, AT THIS TIME! Things may change over the next few days. It would help tremendously if I could evaluate him, but that won't be happening! And, with the continuing problems that are popping up are not good. I have a feeling that his entire system is slowly shutting down. If the pneumonia is caused by lung tissue deterioration and not from an infection, the ABX treatment isn't going to do much good. The more time that goes by, and more medical problems pop up, the more I think this could be fatal. Right now, I'm sure the docs are feeling like this is becoming a wait and see situation. And if everything that has happened can be traced back to mental illness or emotional problems, it could be considered an unintentional suicide.

 

[x_files]

I've had dehydration where my blood pressure went super low and I felt weak. I wouldn't have had super human strength then. AH did an incredible amount of walking that day it sounds. He did drink tea at the restaurant. He could've drank water there, and at his mother's instead of the oil. Was there another reason he was so dehydrated that he'd drink anything including a caustic fluid? What made him have such super human strength? If he was dehydrated why wasn't he feeling weak and tired? AH drank something that will probably give him life-long health problems. I feel we all need to understand what he drank, why and if there was a motive to self harm, and when he drank it, and the timing in relation to the attacks.

This whole case is full of odd facts and unanswered questions.

When I suffered heat stroke the last thing I could have done was walk another 2 miles, stabbed three people bit a face and held off the police force. I fainted. Something about being dehydrated might be from drug abuse.

 

[glf]

When I suffered heat stroke the last thing I could have done was walk another 2 miles, stabbed three people bit a face and held off the police force. I fainted. Something about being dehydrated might be from drug abuse.

Yes, some drugs could be R/T dehydration. If he was or had taken something prior to the attacks, the drug would acct for increased strength. The drug could cause the increased strength, and that part of the drug was more powerful than the dehydration, or the dehydration came about more slowly than the strength factor. He may have gone into their garage and drank the first liquid he spotted. Michelle might have heard somebody rummaging thru the garage and when she went to see what was going on, she could have raised her voice to Austin, and he felt threatened and attacked her. Then John showed up, and the war was on. Unfortunately, he and Michelle lost the battle.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Beings I'm an LPN, I both agree and disagree with some of your statements. Yes, squeezing a hand could just be a reflex, but I think it would be a conscious response to a family member. He has also had a few other responses, and looking at them as a whole, I believe them to be conscious responses, AT THIS TIME!

I think there's more agreement between us than you realize as I'm saying those might be conscious actions, but such actions as described by the family and LE sound like he's vegetative/minimally conscious so he's got some level of brain injury above his other organ problems that have already been described even if all the actions described were conscious. This matters as far as being able to get a statement out of him, let alone charge him, which LE may have to wait a long time or that time may never arrive if his brain has been permanently fried to the point where he never recovers to the point to have sufficient capacity. If that's the case, being severely brain damaged for the rest of his life where he's lost capacity is itself punishment.

It would help tremendously if I could evaluate him, but that won't be happening! And, with the continuing problems that are popping up are not good. I have a feeling that his entire system is slowly shutting down. If the pneumonia is caused by lung tissue deterioration and not from an infection, the ABX treatment isn't going to do much good. The more time that goes by, and more medical problems pop up, the more I think this could be fatal. Right now, I'm sure the docs are feeling like this is becoming a wait and see situation.

I agree. There are a number of ways he may receive punishment without necessarily ever setting foot in a courtroom, which he could be slowly receiving the death penalty now. With him being in critical condition with his other organs, I don't think the docs have even really looked at his brain short of doing tests to establish what degree he's out of the coma he was in as from what I can tell generally the protocol is to protect the body and then only after that is done, addressing the mind. They may suspect brain injury, but if they did, they probably wouldn't tell the family as there wouldn't be a point in it except causing them to suffer more, when AH might never recover and die anyway.

 

[TDW59]

I have read all the posts, some of the links, none of the youtube.

I am outing myself as one of the "they". I have manic-depression (bipolar I), anxiety, PTSD & have had psychotic breaks.


It is not true that signals of impending crisis or one in full progress is usually recognized, even by psychiatrists, social workers, hospital admin.

What we later put together as a pattern of signs is usually dealt with by us and others in a singular fashion at the time of it's occurrence. For instance, with me, what is later called impulsivity was previously regarded as spontaneity, manifested in an exagerated trait of one's known personality.

Mental illness is very confusing for both it's sufferers & those around them.

I listen to alternative rock on my way to my pdoc & therapist. That song Ghost in the Fog was very popular on the radio. It is talking about addiction. I never understand the words but it was an attractive song melodically to me.So, I don't find that very telling of anything.

The grill for the teeth had some little significance, imo with dad as a dentist, but not overly much. There are spooky eye contacts that are popular too. There is a subculture of kids who are having a hard time shocking us. They have pierced everything all over their faces. Goths. Steampunk. The morbid & grotesque has a popularity with our youth. He had done his hair in a mohawk, which is not uncommon but still unconventional.

I think he did have an issue with steroids. He tells us so, imo.

He may have been getting high too.

Behavior is very complex and our actions and reactions are multi-factored.

As is happening, we are looking back and saying, look see the predetermination of a mental break. Things usually are ,in fact, over-determined. Not void of a cause but rather there being many.

I have more to say but keep losing my connection.

 

[glf]

Thanks TDW59 for your insight. As I stated a few pages, mental health problems rarely fit the textbook description, and I believe each individual is a learning experience for both doc and pt. I've had anxiety problems all my life, but it wasn't until I was in my early 20's that I finally understood what was going on.
And, unfortunately, my kids inherited anxiety too. Happy, happy, joy, joy! But luckily, we all are aware of it, and know what's happening when we don't feel right. Mental illness and emotional problems are still things that people are reluctant to discuss simply because so much of it is hard to understand, so everybody prefers to stay away from discussing it.

 

[TDW59]

I think he was doing drugs, plural, and may include the socially acceptable alcohol which is plenty dangerous enough.

I cannot conceive of this brutality & violence anymore than anyone else can, it is such abherrant behavior.

I keep thinking of my favorite pdoc telling me about his professor stressing to them that if a person is hurting badly enough, they will take anything, eat dirt, if they think if will help ease the suffering.

I have had one episode created in 12 hours in one day and another that took 6 months brewing before it cracked me.

Overwhelming stress caused the first one. So stress is a factor to consider too.

I dont think he will remember...but he was suicidal too and wow, when he comes to himself, if he does, he will be wishing beyond any and all that he had succeeded.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

The Palm Beach Post is wondering why it's taking so long to get the toxicology results back:
http://opinionzone.blog.palmbeachpo...in-harrouff-toxicology-report-taking-so-long/

 

[glf]

I think there's more agreement between us than you realize as I'm saying those might be conscious actions, but such actions as described by the family and LE sound like he's vegetative/minimally conscious so he's got some level of brain injury above his other organ problems that have already been described even if all the actions described were conscious. This matters as far as being able to get a statement out of him, let alone charge him, which LE may have to wait a long time or that time may never arrive if his brain has been permanently fried to the point where he never recovers to the point to have sufficient capacity. If that's the case, being severely brain damaged for the rest of his life where he's lost capacity is itself punishment.



I agree. There are a number of ways he may receive punishment without necessarily ever setting foot in a courtroom, which he could be slowly receiving the death penalty now. With him being in critical condition with his other organs, I don't think the docs have even really looked at his brain short of doing tests to establish what degree he's out of the coma he was in as from what I can tell generally the protocol is to protect the body and then only after that is done, addressing the mind. They may suspect brain injury, but if they did, they probably wouldn't tell the family as there wouldn't be a point in it except causing them to suffer more, when AH might never recover and die anyway.

I'm almost certain they have done a couple of CAT scans, probably early on, and probably another when they realized his mental state seemed to be deteriorating. Whether he continues to appear to have worsening mental issues will probably determine how often a scan is being done. Like I said, a wait and see situation.

 

[TDW59]

It seems to me mental health has been an issue and talked about as a common thread for 80 pages. My intent is not to halt that conversation but to help shed some light onto it, if possible.

 

[glf]

D

I think he was doing drugs, plural, and may include the socially acceptable alcohol which is plenty dangerous enough.

I cannot conceive of this brutality & violence anymore than anyone else can, it is such abherrant behavior.

I keep thinking of my favorite pdoc telling me about his professor stressing to them that if a person is hurting badly enough, they will take anything, eat dirt, if they think if will help ease the suffering.

I have had one episode created in 12 hours in one day and another that took 6 months brewing before it cracked me.

Overwhelming stress caused the first one. So stress is a factor to consider too.

I dont think he will remember...but he was suicidal too and wow, when he comes to himself, if he does, he will be wishing beyond any and all that he had succeeded.

My MIL was diagnosed when she was 35 or 36 with post polio syndrome and peripheral neuropathy. She found a very knowledgeable doc recommended by her family doc, and he did wonders for her. But he said "Stress will kill you!"
Stress and pain affect everything inside your body, and it just wears people completely out! And it ages people so fast. I was talking to another nurse I worked with about looking older, and she told me, remember, it takes alot of energy to hurt.

 

[TDW59]

Well said!! glf I hope I can remember that!

Both of those 2 families are going through the very worst kind of stress and pain right now.

 

[CARIIS]

I have been trying To figure out why he would drink oil. Online I have found that some body builders will inject synthol directly into their muscles. Synthol is an oil and alcohol based injection to give the appearance of enlarged muscles, but does not actually add more muscle. It can have cause a psychological dependence, and can be bought online. I wonder if he was trying to stop or ran out of synthol. Could he of had a psychological need for synthol and drinking oil was as close as he could get st the time? Also could whatever he drank during the attack of had an oil base to it.
I know next to nothing about synthol other than the little bit of reading I have been doing online. Is this theory possible or way out there?
I also thought it was interesting in my reading that suddenly stopping steroids can cause a person to go into depression for up to a year after stopping, and stress can bring on that depression. So he could of stopped the steroids five months before and still be effected. His dad makes it sound like he may of been depressed the two weeks before.
Just some thoughts of what could of been going on.

It eas not until yesterdays interview - with the running from scary things for three miles , walking from duffies to moms, and back to try to get to dads -- that helped me with the really bizaire thirst issues within a two hour time peroid - is this a rule out for mental illiness, nope not IMO, is this a rule out for desinger drugs , nope, is this a rule out steroid withdrawal nope.

IMo tho it was very telling, if you combine any of the above, with wild dehayration, you might end up with a double murder attempted murder , and eating another person.

moo

Wow. Everybody has some good things to say, makes for some good discussion. Maybe he got ahold of some laced pot, and whatever extra was there he had a reaction to. From the few people in his circle of friends who have commented, they all seemed to like him, so I have no reason to think somebody he palled around with would fix him a mixed drink laced with weed killer. Kids that age would know something like that could have devastating consequences. I think if somebody was trying to be funny and play a joke on him they would have put laxative in his drink, or maybe a couple of water pills, but nothing poison.
One thing that really stands out to me is the 2 to 3hr walk they went on. His dad KNOWS what heat exhaustion and dehydration are like, and I would think they both would have a bottle of water or a sports drink, or even a pop with them.
Dad is in the medical field, Austin is studying exercise, and neither grabbed something to drink?! That's just stupidity. I need to read up on this synthol. I'm not familiar with it. I feel safe in saying he was probably given charcoal. I also believe he probably started throwing up after he arrived at the hospital. The cooking oil alone would have made me really sick, and then adding another substance that is irritating to the mouth, throat and esophagus on top of the oil should cause anybody to throw up!
Somebody suggested that Austin might have known these people indirectly. The only thing I can think of is thru their daughter. I'm sure at one point her age was mentioned, but I can't remember. I wonder if they had met at college? Other than her, I don't know how they could be connected.

Neat post my deat , more food for thought! Its unreal

I agree that this has been a "non ripping to shreds thread. Lots of intelligent concerned sleuths, and a few experts on bugs too. :smile:

..................no, I haven't seen that bug since......what am I doing up so late?........fftobed:

You have been an excellent bug expert, and are responsible for sleep deprivation!!

I can't help but think he was in a roid rage plus flakka. He constantly said in his videos that he doesn't do drugs.... why say this? Thou protest too much?
He could've easily did something that was laced with it without his knowledge. Watching his videos I see him spiraling. I feel he had a lot of mental issues going on too. Many mental issues do not arise until around 18 yrs old. Him thinking he was a super hero for example. Bi polar disorder + schizophrenia + drugs (self medicating) + steroid use = dangerous situation. Friends could have supplied him with drugs that were laced (without their knowledge). I also wonder if maybe he ingested something out of someone else's garage on his way to the final horrific scene. Just my thoughts and opinions though. I will say this... flakka scares the heck out of me. I don't know how people knowingly ingest it seeing how it has done so many others. The problem I believe is it has SO MANY other names maybe these kids don't realize what it truly is.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I had the same thought after Dr PHil yesterday- the run the wesson - incredible thirst ice tea his body appears to have been telling him to drink Not saying someone posisened him , just that along that long walk, craving liquid he might have seen something liquid and drank it

as an animal thirst is a compelling drive

Good post CuriousMe!
I'm so mad at myself because I am actually starting to have compassion for AH. This isn't supposed to happen!!!
I'm angry as all h*ll at his parents for making little of his deteriorating condition. I can't blame the friends, they are just kids too, but dad SAW his behavior at the dental office and elsewhere, and thought it was something they could "beat"? ARGH.

I my beautiful children ever started to behave in an irrational, or unlikely behavior, it wouldn't take me WEEKS to pick up a phone. I am so sad, mad and heartbroken for everyone that has been destroyed by this event. And now I am including Austin. First and foremost the victims and their family, but then for this young man who in my own very humble opinion was very sick with the onset of mental illness (whether caused by steroids or not), who now at the very best will spend life in jail, or may die as well. Mental illness once again is a lose, lose for all. We sure do need help in this Dept.
*Sorry I used your post to rant. I really wanted to thank a good post when all of a sudden the coffee kicked in. [emoji12]

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Identical to where I am after last night - so sad all the way around..............

 

[x_files]

The Palm Beach Post is wondering why it's taking so long to get the toxicology results back:
http://opinionzone.blog.palmbeachpo...in-harrouff-toxicology-report-taking-so-long/

I am wondering too. Can his attorney block the public or even LE from seeing the tox report?

 

[Jax49]

This article from August 25 talks about having to wait on a court order to obtain AH's medical records, which were needed before the FBI began testing. That order was signed on the 25th or earlier. I'm hoping 3 weeks from the 25th we'll get info regarding drugs.

http://cbs12.com/news/local/sheriff-alleged-face-biting-killer-awake-responding

The Martin County Sheriff says there’s been a major step forward in the case of accused killer and face biter Austin Harrouff.
A judge has signed an order, allowing the FBI to get Harrouff’s medical records.