FL - Sara Morales, 35, shot dead by motorcyclist she hit with car, Orange City, 20 Nov 2021

[asmi106082]

I think the people who followed her were from the original scene but not traveling together. I read that a witness of the road rage joined with the biker to follow her.

I have a young son and of course, reading here so often, protecting my family and home are important to me. We got ADT and lock all of our doors and windows. But we also keep a handgun high up in the bedroom closet and I have rehearsed how to use it, just in case.

My plan has always been, if I see or hear someone breaking in, I will call 911 and grab the gun. But even at that point I’d be praying to God and sweating bullets to see if the intruders actually got in. Even if they got through the front door, I’d be hiding upstairs with the gun fixed on my bedroom door.

Only if someone were actually coming in to threaten myself or my family would I shoot. And don’t get me wrong, I would unload on him. Because if he got all the way through the front door and past the expensive electronics without a pause, I’d know he was there to harm.

Obviously this is all my opinion but I definitely think that if you’re truly in fear, you stay in your safe haven until help arrives.

There is a difference between defense and confrontation. MOO

 

[Dawookie]

We cannot discuss anything about his criminal background unless he is charged in this case, even if there was a history of violence targeting vulnerable people or even if there were prior incidents of road rage involving him, no matter how relevant it may seem to be we can’t talk about it here.
So there’s that.
If you can find information about him participating in charity riding clubs or the American Legion, I think you can post, correct me if I’m wrong about that.
We can discuss that SM had no prior criminal charges before her death.
In the online memorials she is remembered by many as a kind and loving person, they closed the libraries at one point after her death in her honor.

Considering he has a valid CCW, chances of him having a criminal background are slim.

 

[everybodhi]

Considering he has a valid CCW, chances of him having a criminal background are slim.

Good point.

 

[Snoods]

This is a summary of a recent post on the Orange City Police Department Facebook. A lot of good points are made.

Did anyone think to get the phones of both the librarian and the biker and access the GPS data to see how long this motorcycle had been following her or if they'd been in the same location previous to the incident in the 1400 block of N Volusia Ave? It seems quite odd that this librarian would target a random motorcycle rider for no reason. In the 911 call she says that he had threatened her. What did she mean? Had they had an interaction earlier and then he started following her which then led to her trying to hit him to get him away from her?

[…]

Also, did anyone think to access any security cameras along the route to see if this biker had been harassing this lady. It seems very odd that she would have attempted to hit a random biker for absolutely no reason. And the fact that this guy fired 8 shots into her seems a bit excessive and suspicious. Most reasonable people, if they see a homeowner come out of their house with a gun, would have simply left....especially after she told them that she felt threatened by three men following her to her house. A reasonable person wouldn't stay there and wait for an opportunity to shoot them 8 times. And finally, how do we know she "intentionally" hit him as opposed to accidentally leaving her lane? In the past 5 years I've had people run me off the road twice and both times they had no idea they had done it. They switch lanes without realizing I was in their blind spot. Had I chased them down and started yelling at them at the next intersection they would have thought I was a crazy person and likely sped away just like the librarian did.

[…]

The fact of the matter is, your last press release makes absolutely no sense based on human nature as I know it. A pregnant (woman) with an 11 year old daughter isn't going to randomly target a biker for no reason. So if it was intentional what would inspire her to do that? Does anyone in your department have even a basic level of curiosity to find the answer to that question?


Orange City Police Department

 

[everybodhi]

This is a summary of a recent post on the Orange City Police Department Facebook. A lot of good points are made.

Did anyone think to get the phones of both the librarian and the biker and access the GPS data to see how long this motorcycle had been following her or if they'd been in the same location previous to the incident in the 1400 block of N Volusia Ave? It seems quite odd that this librarian would target a random motorcycle rider for no reason. In the 911 call she says that he had threatened her. What did she mean? Had they had an interaction earlier and then he started following her which then led to her trying to hit him to get him away from her?

[…]

Also, did anyone think to access any security cameras along the route to see if this biker had been harassing this lady. It seems very odd that she would have attempted to hit a random biker for absolutely no reason. And the fact that this guy fired 8 shots into her seems a bit excessive and suspicious. Most reasonable people, if they see a homeowner come out of their house with a gun, would have simply left....especially after she told them that she felt threatened by three men following her to her house. A reasonable person wouldn't stay there and wait for an opportunity to shoot them 8 times. And finally, how do we know she "intentionally" hit him as opposed to accidentally leaving her lane? In the past 5 years I've had people run me off the road twice and both times they had no idea they had done it. They switch lanes without realizing I was in their blind spot. Had I chased them down and started yelling at them at the next intersection they would have thought I was a crazy person and likely sped away just like the librarian did.

[…]

The fact of the matter is, your last press release makes absolutely no sense based on human nature as I know it. A pregnant (woman) with an 11 year old daughter isn't going to randomly target a biker for no reason. So if it was intentional what would inspire her to do that? Does anyone in your department have even a basic level of curiosity to find the answer to that question?


Orange City Police Department

The most recent post about this I see on the Orange City PD page is November 22, with 2.2K comments.
Is that their most recent statement?
Two weeks ago and two days after her death?

 

[Snoods]

The most recent post about this I see on that page is November 22, with 2.2K comments.
Is that their most recent statement?
Two weeks ago and two days after her death?

There are people commenting under more recent Happy Thanksgiving and road closure posts. Scroll up a bit.

 

[everybodhi]

There are people commenting under more recent Happy Thanksgiving and road closure posts. Scroll up a bit.

Ahhh. I didn’t think to look there, great comment.
Glad to see local citizens are still asking them questions about this, I hope they are doing the thorough investigation any homicide deserves and share their findings with the public.
It just doesn’t make sense to me, her choosing to incite a fight with a big burly guy traveling with his buddies and him following her down a private road and shooting eight shots into her for an alleged minor traffic incident with little or no damage.

Homicide - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

 

[Parmalade]

she says that he had threatened her. What did she mean? Had they had an interaction earlier and then he started following her which then led to her trying to hit him to get him away from her?

[…]

Also, did anyone think to access any security cameras along the route to see if this biker had been harassing this lady. It seems very odd that she would have attempted to hit a random biker for absolutely no reason.

And finally, how do we know she "intentionally" hit him as opposed to accidentally leaving her lane? In the past 5 years I've had people run me off the road twice and both times they had no idea they had done it. They switch lanes without realizing I was in their blind spot. Had I chased them down and started yelling at them at the next intersection they would have thought I was a crazy person and likely sped away just like the librarian did.


Orange City Police Department

SBM.

The article in the link below suggests that AD and SM were not known to each other prior to the traffic incident.

IMO, the way the article describes the accounts provided by AD and other witnesses at the traffic incident, it suggests they were momentarily stopped, either legally or illegally, whilst AD was complaining to SM about her driving (perhaps being too close, etc.).

Then it sounds as though, possibly out of frustration or fear (if AD had blocked her to cause her to stop so that he could complain to her, say), SM intentionally repositioned her vehicle to nudge into him.

Then it suggests he and other witnesses (who may not have been friends with him given one refers to him as “the dude on the bike” when recounting the shooting, and adds it was “in self-defense”) followed her as she fled the scene to be able to provide the home address of SM (though they can’t have known she was travelling home at first, but the article also suggests it was to get a better description of her so I presume they hoped she would stop eventually).

It sounds as though it is a story of a minor traffic compliant escalating tragically, because two members of the public decided not to leave events to unfold with trained personnel (i.e. SM should have remained at the scene, AD should not have tailed her when she did, then neither should have needed to draw weapons and instead let LE take care of the situation).

Pregnant Librarian Shot Dead After Pulling Gun on Biker Who Followed Her Home in Road Rage Incident: Police

 

[Snoods]

Is it really considered leaving the scene of an accident if there isn’t any damage to a vehicle and nobody is hurt? I seriously doubt the police would have even come out. What proof is there that any “violent road rage” even happened?

That three men were so pissed off over a very minor altercation and proceeded to chase down a woman like a pack of wolves is astounding to me.

 

[Snoods]

Ahhh. I didn’t think to look there, great comment.
Glad to see local citizens are still asking them questions about this, I hope they are doing the thorough investigation any homicide deserves and share their findings with the public.
It just doesn’t make sense to me, her choosing to incite a fight with a big burly guy traveling with his buddies and him following her down a private road and shooting eight shots into her for an alleged minor traffic incident with little or no damage.

Homicide - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

Yes, I’m glad people are still asking questions too. Surely police are still investigating? This is a complicated case with a lot of players.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

A few things. I've since learned that Sara was shot with 3 bullets. Also, the motorcycle on Sara's front porch belonged to her boyfriend and is still there. This is per statements made by Sara's family. I still think this murder was planned and premeditated.

Here is a link to an audio (there's no video) of two 911 calls made by the male stalkers of Sara. The first audio is about 2.5 minutes long, and the second audio is about 6.47 minutes long.

The first audio: The men already had Sara's license plate number BEFORE they started following her, as per the 911 call.

The second audio: I'm pretty sure you can hear Sara shout "Let me go" at the 1.13 mark. This is just before Sara shouts: "You're three men. You followed me. Leave me alone." Then Sara is shot several times by Andrew Derr. I find it interesting that the "Let me go" phrase has not been publicized by the media.

Also, the man (not the shooter) on the second 911 call after Sara is shot is just too smooth; he knows all the right words. "It was self-defense." He knew to cover all the angles. I think this murder was planned and premediated. At least one of the men would have gotten inside the house.

Lastly, does anyone have a link to Sara's 911 call, where she stated that the men were threatening her and being aggressive?

Hit-and-run driver shot, killed in confrontation after Orange City crash, police say
Show less

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

wading in to mark my place...

sitting on my hands for more facts...

tragic, nonetheless. Thank you to those who are linking MSM on this one.

 

[Cryptic]

This is just before Sara shouts: "You're three men. You followed me. Leave me alone."

Wow, that just reinforces the shooter's self defense claims. The deceased intentionally damages property, then leaves the scene.

When she is confronted about her actions, her claim is not: "I have a child in the home- and I called 911. please back off".

Nor does she describe any threatening behavior by the men (other than they had the nerve to follow her after she damaged the property).

Instead, she appears to feel " 'dissed"- then points a weapon at another person. Its a bad combination that usually leads to a bad outcome.

It does not matter whether it is an inner city male pointing the weapon, or a female librarian. Its just not a good idea.

 

[SuziQ]

Is it really considered leaving the scene of an accident if there isn’t any damage to a vehicle and nobody is hurt? I seriously doubt the police would have even come out. What proof is there that any “violent road rage” even happened?

That three men were so pissed off over a very minor altercation and proceeded to chase down a woman like a pack of wolves is astounding to me.

Depending on where you live, LE is not required to come out to non injury accidents. In my state they discourage the public from calling. Just exchange insurance information and be on your way.

Chased her down like a pack of wolves?

I see a lot of assumptions being made about these bikers. You know a lot of Military and LE wear leather and ride, right? My husband and I ride. We wear leathers. We carry guns. We go to rally's. We are upper middle class. Our kids are Federal and local LE. We are not criminals or scary.

Most bikers now days are more likely to be upper class professionals. You should see all the million dollars RV's at Sturgis.

Moo.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

Wow, that just reinforces the shooter's self defense claims. The deceased intentionally damages property, then leaves the scene.

When she is confronted about her actions, her claim is not: "I have a child in the home- and I called 911. please back off".

Nor does she describe any threatening behavior by the men (other than they had the nerve to follow her after she damaged the property).

Instead, she appears to feel " 'dissed"- then points a weapon at another person. Its a bad combination that usually leads to a bad outcome.

It does not matter whether it is an inner city male pointing the weapon, or a female librarian. Its just not a good idea.

Did you have a chance to listen to the two audios? One of them clearly explains that the three men already had Sara's license plate number BEFORE they started following her. Then the second audio indicates how prepared one of the men was to explain the situation; it was too smooth and too perfectly worded. I think this was premeditated and planned.

How many women would remain at an accident scene with a motorcycle gang? And what reason would Sara have to damage the motorcycle (though if they were harassing her; she could have hurried away and accidentally damaged the motorcycle)?

How rational would you be if three men followed you home; stalked you? And remember that Sara was a physically small woman. You would not be thinking rationally. Furthermore, at least one of those men would have gotten in the house.

There's something else that you may not be aware of: when Sara got home, she did tell the men to leave, and this was prior to her going into the house to call 911 and get the gun. Also, Sara was shot on her front lawn, near the garage.

How rational would you be, particularly if you were a small woman like Sara?

 

[JayWill]

Depending on where you live, LE is not required to come out to non injury accidents. In my state they discourage the public from calling. Just exchange insurance information and be on your way.

Chased her down like a pack of wolves?

I see a lot of assumptions being made about these bikers. You know a lot of Military and LE wear leather and ride, right? My husband and I ride. We wear leathers. We carry guns. We go to rally's. We are upper middle class. Our kids are Federal and local LE. We are not criminals or scary.

Most bikers now days are more likely to be upper class professionals. You should see all the milliomen dollars RV's at Sturgis.

Moo.

Respectfully, I do not see what wealth or class has to do with men who bully and harass women.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

Wow, that just reinforces the shooter's self defense claims. The deceased intentionally damages property, then leaves the scene.

When she is confronted about her actions, her claim is not: "I have a child in the home- and I called 911. please back off".

Nor does she describe any threatening behavior by the men (other than they had the nerve to follow her after she damaged the property).

Instead, she appears to feel " 'dissed"- then points a weapon at another person. Its a bad combination that usually leads to a bad outcome.

It does not matter whether it is an inner city male pointing the weapon, or a female librarian. Its just not a good idea.

Did you have a chance to listen to the two audios? One of them clearly explains that the three men already had Sara's license plate number BEFORE they started following her. Then the second audio indicates how prepared one of the men was to explain the situation; it was too smooth and too perfectly worded. I think this was premeditated and planned.

How many women would remain at an accident scene with a motorcycle gang? And what reason would Sara have to damage the motorcycle (though if they were harassing her; she could have hurried away and accidentally damaged the motorcycle)?

How rational would you be if three men followed you home; stalked you? And remember that Sara was a physically small woman. You would not be thinking rationally. Furthermore, at least one of those men would have gotten in the house.

There's something else that you may not be aware of: when Sara got home, she did tell the men to leave, and this was prior to her going into the house to call 911 and get the gun. Also, Sara was shot on her front lawn, near the garage. The men could have left at that point.

How rational would you be, particularly if you were a small woman like Sara?

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

This is a summary of a recent post on the Orange City Police Department Facebook. A lot of good points are made.

Did anyone think to get the phones of both the librarian and the biker and access the GPS data to see how long this motorcycle had been following her or if they'd been in the same location previous to the incident in the 1400 block of N Volusia Ave? It seems quite odd that this librarian would target a random motorcycle rider for no reason. In the 911 call she says that he had threatened her. What did she mean? Had they had an interaction earlier and then he started following her which then led to her trying to hit him to get him away from her?

[…]

Also, did anyone think to access any security cameras along the route to see if this biker had been harassing this lady. It seems very odd that she would have attempted to hit a random biker for absolutely no reason. And the fact that this guy fired 8 shots into her seems a bit excessive and suspicious. Most reasonable people, if they see a homeowner come out of their house with a gun, would have simply left....especially after she told them that she felt threatened by three men following her to her house. A reasonable person wouldn't stay there and wait for an opportunity to shoot them 8 times. And finally, how do we know she "intentionally" hit him as opposed to accidentally leaving her lane? In the past 5 years I've had people run me off the road twice and both times they had no idea they had done it. They switch lanes without realizing I was in their blind spot. Had I chased them down and started yelling at them at the next intersection they would have thought I was a crazy person and likely sped away just like the librarian did.

[…]

The fact of the matter is, your last press release makes absolutely no sense based on human nature as I know it. A pregnant (woman) with an 11 year old daughter isn't going to randomly target a biker for no reason. So if it was intentional what would inspire her to do that? Does anyone in your department have even a basic level of curiosity to find the answer to that question?


Orange City Police Department

I am going to re-read your comments, but as per Sara's family (and another man who stated that Derr also stalked and threatened his older mother; I know we cannot discuss Derr's previous history, but this refers to the man's statements) these issues of security cameras and video are still being investigated, plus of course enhancements of any audios. So bottom line is that investigations of audio and video are still going on.

 

[Cryptic]

D
How many women would remain at an accident scene with a motorcycle gang?

The man whom Sara pointed a weapon at was not wearing any thing that even remotely resembled out law / 2% patches, leather, vests and other get up.

Sara's boy friend owns a motorcycle as well. Does that mean that he must be in a motorcycle gang and that Sara, by extension, must be affiliated with a gang?

How rational would you be if three men followed you home; stalked you? And remember that Sara was a physically small woman.

My view of their rationality would depend on the totality of the situation.

If I deliberately damaged their property, then drove off, I would not like the fact that they were following me- but I would know why.

And remember that Sara was a physically small woman.

Once Sarah pointed the weapon at the other person, she became far more threatening than a 250 pound, unarmed male.

Then the second audio indicates how prepared one of the men was to explain the situation; it was too smooth and too perfectly worded.

Though I have not heard the audio, I think you could have a valid point.

A smooth, legally worded explanation could well indicate that the man has either taken self defense classes from a certain type of instructor- or is a fan of internet self defense "gurus" who mix alot of "tactical talk" and psuedo legal analysis into their "lessons".

Your concern was also noted by a detective interviewing a Florida man whose self defense claim was rejected by a jury- Never been in the military, nor the police and not a lawyer? Then... why all the tactical talk and legal wordings?

An overly smooth and legally presented explanation might indicate a pre disposition to "defend" oneself- stemming from too many You Tube self defense gurus.

But..... Sara did not give the police alot to work with. She deliberately damaged the man's property, left the scene, pointed a weapon at the man, while citing not that "I am afraid", but.....apparently- "You had the nerve to follow me."

 

[tara83]

The guy was way out of line following her home.He had her license number and should have given it to the cops and let them do their job at what they are paid and trained for.Everyone wants to play vigilante these days and it gets old.