FL - Sara Morales, 35, shot dead by motorcyclist she hit with car, Orange City, 20 Nov 2021

[Warwick1991]

BBM. Can we have a link to where it says that a person defending their home has to be inside and has to be in fear of their life? Which law?

I know the post was not directed to me, but I’ll respond…. There is no link to a law that indicates self defense applies only in one’s home, because this is not true in Florida. It is true in some states, especially those that have restrictive firearms laws, but not in FL. I live in FL and have had a CCW license for years. I keep myself informed of the applicable statutes.

Here’s another link to the entire Florida statute on the subject: Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

 

[JayWill]

A person must still show that they were in fear for their life regarding a threat inside (key word) the home. This fear can be presumed in many states.

But... they key word is still: Inside the home. In short, one cannot use deadly force to frighten trespassers, prevent people from inquiring about damaged property, in retribution for being 'dissed (getting followed etc.).

BBM. Can we have a link to where it says that a person defending their home has to be inside and has to be in fear of their life? Which law?

I know the post was not directed to me, but I’ll respond…. There is no link to a law that indicates self defense applies only in one’s home, because this is not true in Florida. It is true in some states, especially those that have restrictive firearms laws, but not in FL. I live in FL and have had a CCW license for years. I keep myself informed of the applicable statutes.

Yes, I thought as much. I posted and excerpt where is said that the person legally there has no obligation to retreat when met by force. (paraphrased). I took that to mean that she had ever right to point her gun at them and tell them to get off her property.

 

[Snoods]

But she did tell 911 that three men were threatening her, driving aggressively towards her and following her home. Three threatening men in three separate vehicles. She does seem to be someone who is fearful for life, she should. I would be extremely frightened. I think she exited her car with the gun and was shot seven times. I don’t think she pointed it at him.

@PremeditatedCrime Do we know if they told the 911 operator that they were all following her? Even after getting her license plate number?

They seem to have been the aggressors from start to finish. I’ll just say I can’t find a thing about previous bad behavior from her.

 

[Warwick1991]

What I’d really like to know is whether this incident is being investigated by anyone else beyond the local police department. So far, I haven’t found anything yet.

It would seem that Ms. Morales’ right to self defense was not considered by the local police, even though she was on her own front lawn.

 

[Snoods]

What I’d really like to know is whether this incident is being investigated by anyone else beyond the local police department. So far, I haven’t found anything yet.

It would seem that Ms. Morales’ right to self defense was not considered, even though she was on her own front lawn.

Are we even sure the local police department is still investigating? Not a peep from them.

 

[JayWill]

What I’d really like to know is whether this incident is being investigated by anyone else beyond the local police department. So far, I haven’t found anything yet.

It would seem that Ms. Morales’ right to self defense was not considered by the local police, even though she was on her own front lawn.

And someone should investigate these 'investigating' LE who seem to have taken three men who chased a woman and shot her dead on her own property. It stinks.

 

[Warwick1991]

At this point, the case should be under the jurisdiction of the Volusia County State Attorney. They may be investigating it.

 

[JayWill]

At this point, the case should be under the jurisdiction of the Volusia County State Attorney. They may be investigating it.

I hope someone is. In another case in another state a man went to pick up his son for a custody visit and the son was not there. The mother of the son's boyfriend argued then went inside and got a gun and shot the custody father dead, because he was defending his home.
Are only men allowed to defend their homes?

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

But she did tell 911 that three men were threatening her, driving aggressively towards her and following her home. Three threatening men in three separate vehicles. She does seem to be someone who is fearful for life, she should. I would be extremely frightened. I think she exited her car with the gun and was shot seven times. I don’t think she pointed it at him.

@PremeditatedCrime Do we know if they told the 911 operator that they were all following her? Even after getting her license plate number?

They seem to have been the aggressors from start to finish. I’ll just say I can’t find a thing about previous bad behavior from her.

"Do we know if they told the 911 operator that they were all following her?" From what I understand from the men's two different 911 calls, the 911 Dispatcher was advised that two men were following her in two separate vehicles; as opposed to three men following Sara in three separate vehicles. Please let me know if I should re-post the men's 911 calls (2.5 minutes; 6.47 minutes).

As per Sara's family, eight bullets were fired and three bullets struck Sara.

 

[JayWill]

I would be terrified if one man who was abusive to me followed me home and then confronted me on my property, let alone three.

 

[Snoods]

"Do we know if they told the 911 operator that they were all following her?" From what I understand from the men's two different 911 calls, the 911 Dispatcher was advised that two men were following her in two separate vehicles; as opposed to three men following Sara in three separate vehicles. Please let me know if I should re-post the men's 911 calls (2.5 minutes; 6.47 minutes).

As per Sara's family, eight bullets were fired and three bullets struck Sara.

So they lied to the 911 dispatcher?

Would you mind re-posting the two calls? I have only listened to one of the men’s 911 calls. Thank you!

 

[Marg from Oz]

There Definately is something going on with this. Not a peep about the bikies.
Very quick to point the finger at Sara. MOO

 

[everybodhi]

A person must still show that they were in fear for their life regarding a threat inside (key word) the home. This fear can be presumed in many states.

But... they key word is still: Inside the home. In short, one cannot use deadly force to frighten trespassers, prevent people from inquiring about damaged property, in retribution for being 'dissed (getting followed etc.).

Florida stand your ground law does not require you to be inside your dwelling, and specifically states you can defend yourself from your occupied vehicle as well.
Also you are not immune if you are trespassing on someone’s property.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

So they lied to the 911 dispatcher?

Would you mind re-posting the two calls? I have only listened to one of the men’s 911 calls. Thank you!

Yes, I will repost the 911 calls later today. Please advise if you also want me to repost Sara's 911 call.

It's a good idea to pay special attention to how the male witness knew EXACTLY what to say, just one or two seconds after Sara was shot several times.

 

[Spyralflare]

I’m still wondering why she drove home. If I were being pursued by 3 bikers, I’d drive to the nearest police station.

 

[everybodhi]

reposting.
b&ubm
Florida's 'stand your ground' law explained: Q&A

Additionally, “stand your ground” only applies if the person who uses force in self defense is in a place where they’re legally allowed to be.
A person who is threatened while trespassing or breaking into someone’s home can’t claim self-defense under “stand your ground.”

“Duty to retreat” is the expectation that a person who’s being threatened with bodily harm will make a reasonable attempt to escape from the situation before resorting to using deadly force. In almost than half of U.S. states, it’s only legal to use deadly force in self-defense if you’ve attempted other avenues of escape or de-escalation unless you're in your own home, according to Findlaw.com.

This is not the case in Florida. A person who is obeying the law and in a place where he or she is permitted to be has no obligation to try to get away.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

I’m still wondering why she drove home. If I were being pursued by 3 bikers, I’d drive to the nearest police station.

I have already given my opinions on this. (1) Women (and even men) do not think clearly and rationally when stalked by three men; (2) Sara would have to drive through backroads to get to the police station; (3) Sara did try to "retreat" via driving alternative routes/streets; (4) police station is out because it requires backroads, however driving to a male neighbor might have been a good idea. But we cannot expect women (and even men) to think clearly when stalked by three men; (5) this was planned and premeditated; if it wasn't Sara, it would be another woman.

I'm still wondering why the three men would even bother pursuing her, since they already had her license plate number. That is, in my opinion, a better question. And how did Andrew Derr have his gun "so ready"?

We don't know anything about Sara's history or thinking. Maybe she was anxious to get home to Mother and Daughter? Mom was outside in panic; 11-year-old daughter was in the house. Maybe Sara had a previous incident where the police did not handle a stalking incident properly? (This refers to previous stalking episode BUT NOT with these specific men).

There's also the possibility that Sara thought her father and boyfriend were home, and had made an assumption that the men would retreat once seeing two adult males at the house. Though I think it's more likely that Sara was aware that police do not generally handling stalking incidents properly.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

Was my post with Sara's 911 call deleted? This was where we learned that Sara emerged from the CAR with the gun? Sara did not leave the "safety" of her house to confront the men with the gun.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

Someone also asked me to post the men's two (2) 911 calls. They are posted below.

Here is a link to an audio (rather than video) of two 911 calls made by the male stalkers of Sara. The first audio is about 2.5 minutes long, and the second audio is about 6.47 minutes long.

The first audio: The men already had Sara's license plate number BEFORE they started following her, as per the 911 call.

The second audio: I'm pretty sure you can hear Sara shout "Let me go" at the 1.13 mark. This is just before Sara shouts: "You're three men. You followed me. Leave me alone." Then Sara is shot several times by Andrew Derr. I find it interesting that the "Let me go" phrase has not been publicized by the media.

Also, the man (not the shooter) on the second 911 call after Sara is shot is just too smooth; he knows all the right words. "It was self-defense." He knew to cover all the angles. I think this murder was planned and premediated. At least one of the men would have gotten inside the house.

Hit-and-run driver shot, killed in confrontation after Orange City crash, police say

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

I imagine that the men will not use SYG, but just cite self defense. Even if the men were trespassing, one cannot make trespassing in and of itself a capital crime- as some other individuals just found out.

In the end, the deceased did not give prosecutors a lot to work with:

- Intentionally damages the property of another. Leaves the scene. Is followed .
- Enters her house, presumably to obtain a weapon. Goes back outside
- Announces that she is female, points out that the men followed her, then orders them to "leave her alone".
- She then points the weapon at somebody who might have been trespassing.

Though the order of the last two steps maybe reversed, the over all circumstances would not justify a male's actions, nor should it justify a female's actions either.

I am not giving the men a "blank check". They should face some criminal charges if they provoked Sara, by say blocking a public road and not letting her pass. Likewise, if the parties knew each other and the incident was an avoidable continuation of past drama.

Sara was justified in believing that either herself, or her mother (outside and in panic) or her 11-year-old daughter (inside the house) were in danger. This is reasonable to assume. It's also reasonable to assume that at least one of the men could have gotten inside the house.

I also suspect had Sara's boyfriend or father done the same thing, he'd be considered a hero.