FL - Sara Morales, 35, shot dead by motorcyclist she hit with car, Orange City, 20 Nov 2021

[Cryptic]

You really think that there is a big difference between waving a gun around and pointing it. Doubt the police or courts think so.

I would not think so either.

If I had that kind of encounter with someone and they followed me home, I might very well bring out my gun too. I wouldn't shoot them or point it at them, but I'd want my gun for my own protection.

I might arm myself, but I would not "bring it out" into view.

In fact, confronting people while holding a pistol in my hand with out a very clearly defined threat would never even cross my mind. I have been told that I am a good pistol shot- but, I don't even like shooting at human shaped targets.

Weapons are for defense against deadly threats human threats and hunting game animals. They are not to be:

- used to frighten people
- used as "insurance" or "plan B"
- used to enhance "street creds"
- used as a talisman

Sadly, in this case, I think the deceased was attempting to use a weapon to accomplish one or more of the elements listed above. She then lost control of the situation in a severe way.

 

[Tee7077]

The way I see this is...SM may have unknowingly moved to his lane, but according to others he was traveling at a high rate of speed. He then rides beside her "yapping" at her. She probably was frightened as she may have felt she was being menaced. I think I would have felt that way. (I hope her doors were locked because I would have been afraid he was going to pull me out of the car.) No way would I stop, get out of my car and talk rationally to this loon. In trying to get away, she scuffs his saddlebag with her car. And then the chase is on.

I would have been terrified! Where else would she go but to her home where she felt safe. But home wasn't safe because Derr and others on motorcycles followed her there. She may have been "yapping" at them but I can only imagine what they were saying (screaming) at her.

He feels threatened? <modsnip>

So, he pulls his gun and shoots her 5 times. I'm sure one of those shots ripped through her pregnant belly and killed the unborn child inside.

Murder plain and simple. But not just one, but 2 murders.

I hope they let him pack his precious saddlebags so he can at least have some "comfort" in jail.

The level of minimizing and absolving her of any responsibility in what happens you are doing is just.....

 

[Cryptic]

Is there any relationship between the motorcyclist, the other cyclist and the person following in the truck?

i’m just very surprised that other random people decided to join this man and following the driver back to her home…

Sorry not buying it.

I think you have some valid concerns. One can had the fact that the deceased's boyfriend apparently also owns a motorcycle to your noting the claims of:

"Unknown fellow cycle brothers just happened to witness my minor accident. They then decided to assist me by following the woman. No, nobody knew anybody"

The motorcyclist's claim is entirely possible. Yet, as you implied, it seems to be a stretch. Though not all motorcycle owners participate in the "rider" sub culture, a certain number do.

Accordingly, the people could have a familiarity with each other from biker watering holes, charity rides, hot dogs at the Harley dealer, or parties. If so, then that changes everything.

 

[Razz]

Andrew Derr says Sara-Nicole Morales pointed a gun at him. Two men say she waved gun after three men followed her home in road rage incident. Biker says library worker pointed gun before she was fatally shot

This article was originally posted by Kittybunny today.

I urge all of you commenting, even the Mod who snipped my comment, to read this article thoroughly.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I would not think so either.

I might arm myself, but I would not "bring it out" into view.

In fact, confronting people while holding a pistol in my hand with out a very clearly defined threat would never even cross my mind. I have been told that I am a good pistol shot- but, I don't even like shooting at human shaped targets.

Weapons are for defense against deadly threats human threats and hunting game animals. They are not to be:

- used to frighten people
- used as "insurance" or "plan B"
- used to enhance "street creds"
- used as a talisman

Sadly, in this case, I think the deceased was attempting to use a weapon to accomplish one or more of the elements listed above. She then lost control of the situation in a severe way.

So if three men follow you home after a road rage incident, you wouldn't consider that a clearly defined threat?

 

[Razz]

So if three men follow you home after a road rage incident, you wouldn't consider that a clearly defined threat?

And she was chased, not "followed".

 

[Cryptic]

So if three men follow you home after a road rage incident, you wouldn't consider that a clearly defined threat?

Not if I knew they had a legitimate purpose for following me ( I had left the scene of an accident after damaging their property).

In the end, the deceased uncorked a violent genie- then could not recork the bottle as things quickly escalated beyond her control.

The men had no way of knowing whether or not she had real skill with the weapon, nor whether or not she was inherently a good person and having a bad day- and had no intention of using it. Rather, the presumption was that she knew how to use it and would use it.

Please note that I am not giving the men a blank check. Evidence that the parties knew each other and that the men willingly continued a past dispute would change everything.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Not if I knew they had a legitimate purpose for following me ( I had left the scene of an accident after damaging their property).

In the end, the deceased uncorked a violent genie- then could not recork the bottle as things quickly escalated beyond her control.

The men had no way of knowing whether or not she had real skill with the weapon, nor whether or not she was inherently a good person and having a bad day- and had no intention of using it. Rather, the presumption was that she knew how to use it and would use it.

Please note that I am not giving the men a blank check. Evidence that the parties knew each other and that the men willingly continued a past dispute would change everything.

Seems like you are giving them a blank check in the absence of the evidence you mention. As three men, you simply do NOT chase women home. You just don't do it, especially when you were the aggressor in the first place. Derr did everything wrong in this case. I'm amazed by the support he's getting.

 

[Laughing]

Not blaming this victim in any way.

Thinking ahead to potentially experiencing any traffic disputes in the future.

Possibly Ms. Morales driving to the police department or sheriff's department might have resulted in a different outcome?

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Not blaming this victim in any way.

Thinking ahead to potentially experiencing any traffic disputes in the future.

Possibly Ms. Morales driving to the police department or sheriff's department might have resulted in a different outcome?

jmho ymmv lrr

I grew up surrounded by crime. When I got my driver's license, my parents always told me if I'm being followed or feel someone is coming after me to drive to the nearest PD, FD, or hospital.

 

[Razz]

Not blaming this victim in any way.

Thinking ahead to potentially experiencing any traffic disputes in the future.

Possibly Ms. Morales driving to the police department or sheriff's department might have resulted in a different outcome?

jmho ymmv lrr

Yes, but if frightened, I doubt I'd be able to navigate to the PD. I am quite familiar with the area and don't really have a clue where it is.

 

[Razz]

Not if I knew they had a legitimate purpose for following me ( I had left the scene of an accident after damaging their property).

In the end, the deceased uncorked a violent genie- then could not recork the bottle as things quickly escalated beyond her control.

The men had no way of knowing whether or not she had real skill with the weapon, nor whether or not she was inherently a good person and having a bad day- and had no intention of using it. Rather, the presumption was that she knew how to use it and would use it.

Please note that I am not giving the men a blank check. Evidence that the parties knew each other and that the men willingly continued a past dispute would change everything.

According to the article above:

Witnesses say Derr was traveling at a high rate of speed. Apparantly she pulled out in front of him (on purpose? I doubt it.) I've just missed cyclists in my rear view several times only to realize it when they passed by flipping me the bird.

Witnesses at the scene said he became aggressive with her first. He continued his aggression by riding alongside her driver window. The only thing she hit was his saddlebag according to the article. He later admitted he kicked her car.

She removed herself from a volatile situation. Derr chose to chase her along with others.

The only person, according to the article that says she was pointing a gun at Derr was Derr. None of the other witnesses confirmed that. In fact, one said he was shocked when Derr unloaded his clip into her.

The only side we haven't heard from is the deceased and of course, never will.

I don't think Derr's account is a reliable one. He was irate and belligerent until..... he unloaded his gun into her.

 

[Cryptic]

As three men, you simply do NOT chase women home.

I view it as one person left the scene of an accident. Three other people then followed her.

The gender of those involved is not important. Neither would be real or perceived social status derived from profession, manner of dress (exceptions for outlaw biker or gang apparel), or motorcycle vs car ownership.

 

[Mert]

One of the other witnesses clearly reported she waved the gun at the three men.
I understand that we may each have different feelings or reactions to this incident, but I don’t think we can assume what either one of their intentions were for any action, from start to finish. *My opinions.

If I, MYSELF, wanted to compare how I may feel or react, I may say when she swerved into me a SECOND time with a larger vehicle and clipped me on a smaller motorcycle, I may feel she attempted to kill me. If a gun was waved at me by her, I may feel she was threatening my life, AGAIN.
* My opinions.





“The traffic dispute escalated when Morales swerved her car at the biker, the report said. Her vehicle struck the motorcycle’s saddlebags, leaving a scuff mark and almost causing the biker to wreck, according to the report.”



“The blue car then swerved at the motorcyclist and “made contact, almost causing him to wreck,” Hirst stated in the report.”

“Hirst told police that the car driver and motorcyclist “proceeded to got [sic] at it aggressively,” the report stated.”


“Nicolas Hirst, one of the other two men who followed Morales, told police Morales came out of the house and told the men she was on the phone with police, the report stated.”

“She then pulled out a gun and waved it at the three of us. I stepped back, said 'calm down' and before I knew it, the male motorcyclist drew his gun and shot the female what sounded like five times,” Hirst stated, according to the report.”

Biker says library worker pointed gun before she was fatally shot

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I view it as one person left the scene of an accident. Three other people then followed her.

The gender of those involved is not important

In what universe is gender not important? Certainly not in this universe when it comes to crime.

 

[Tee7077]

Seems like you are giving them a blank check in the absence of the evidence you mention. As three men, you simply do NOT chase women home. You just don't do it, especially when you were the aggressor in the first place. Derr did everything wrong in this case. I'm amazed by the support he's getting.

You conveniently left out the part where she assaulted him with her car and tried to kill him

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

You conveniently left out the part where she assaulted him with her car and tried to kill him

You mean after “The motorcycle rider became aggressive and started to ride next to the blue car and yell and point at it"?

Yeah, I did leave that out.

I feel like I've fallen into bizarro world here. The guy was clearly the aggressor from start to finish.

1. He was speeding
2. When she had the audacity to change lanes, she slowed him down and this is where the "road rage" begins and ends (the rest is a targeted hunt, not road rage). There's no indication she did this on purpose, yet he took it personally
3. He pulls up beside her (a sign of aggression) and begins yelling at her. Clearly escalating what should have been a non-event if he was following the laws of the roadway
4. She swerves at him and makes contact. This seems to be intentional and not smart
5. Mr. Aggressive decides she's not going to get away with that. He and two other supposed strangers then chase her home, repeatedly telling her to pull over (like hell would I ever pull over because 3 men chasing me ask me to, especially when at least one has already proven to be an unreasonable, impulsive, jerk)
6. She runs into the home to retrieve her gun while on the phone with 911. She waves it (I'm assuming this was as if alerting them she has it, and not the tale Derr tells)
7. He shoots her 5 times. Not once, not twice, not three times, not even four times. He shoots her 5 times. That isn't self defense. That's shoot to kill. In fact, my understanding of self defense laws is that you're only allowed to use enough force to get out of the situation. He had to shoot her 5 times to insure his safety? Right...

I'm amazed so many, including police, want to overlook 1, 2, 3, 5, and 7.

If the witness is to be believed, this was a woman who was minding her business and driving alone. Her only crime here was in swerving her car toward a man who was already aggressive with her. Who knows why she did that? Anger? Rage of her own? Triggered? Fear? We'll never know because she's dead. The punishment for swerving her car is not the death penalty. Yet Derr, already enraged, decided the smart thing to do is to follow her and when she didn't submit to his order to pull over, he and two others chased her home. Now they know where she lives.

Who in their right mind wouldn't feel threatened? I, for one, am not comfortable saying he shot her 5 times to kill her in self defense while blaming her for bringing her gun out. If we're going to say he acted in self defense, then why wouldn't we say she did too by bringing her gun out to protect herself from three men who, let's be frank, lost their minds that afternoon?

ETA: I have to say the reason road rage became so well publicized in the early 2000s is because of a rash of traffic mishaps/insults/accidents in which people followed the driver they felt slighted them. These drivers doing the following almost always escalated the situation and law enforcement's message was that if someone cut you off or did something that made you mad on the roadway, get their plate number if you can and let authorities handle it. Do not chase or pursue them. How quickly they've (police) forgotten.

 

[Tee7077]

You mean after “The motorcycle rider became aggressive and started to ride next to the blue car and yell and point at it"?

Yeah, I did leave that out.

I feel like I've fallen into bizarro world here. The guy was clearly the aggressor from start to finish.

1. He was speeding
2. When she had the audacity to change lanes, she slowed him down and this is where the "road rage" begins and ends (the rest is a targeted hunt, not road rage). There's no indication she did this on purpose, yet he took it personally
3. He pulls up beside her (a sign of aggression) and begins yelling at her. Clearly escalating what should have been a non-event if he was following the laws of the roadway
4. She swerves at him and makes contact. This seems to be intentional and not smart
5. Mr. Aggressive decides she's not going to get away with that. He and two other supposed strangers then chase her home, repeatedly telling her to pull over (like hell would I ever pull over because 3 men chasing me ask me to, especially when at least one has already proven to be an unreasonable, impulsive, jerk)
6. She runs into the home to retrieve her gun while on the phone with 911. She waves it (I'm assuming this was as if alerting them she has it, and not the tale Derr tells)
7. He shoots her 5 times. Not once, not twice, not three times, not even four times. He shoots her 5 times. That isn't self defense. That's shoot to kill. In fact, my understanding of self defense laws is that you're only allowed to use enough force to get out of the situation. He had to shoot her 5 times to insure his safety? Right...

I'm amazed so many, including police, want to overlook 1, 2, 3, 5, and 7.

If the witness is to be believed, this was a woman who was minding her business and driving alone. Her only crime here was in swerving her car toward a man who was already aggressive with her. Who knows why she did that? Anger? Rage of her own? Triggered? Fear? We'll never know because she's dead. The punishment for swerving her car is not the death penalty. Yet Derr, already enraged, decided the smart thing to do is to follow her and when she didn't submit to his order to pull over, he and two others chased her home. Now they know where she lives.

Who in their right mind wouldn't feel threatened? I, for one, am not comfortable saying he shot her 5 times to kill her in self defense while blaming her for bringing her gun out. If we're going to say he acted in self defense, then why wouldn't we say she did too by bringing her gun out to protect herself from three men who, let's be frank, lost their minds that afternoon?

ETA: I have to say the reason road rage became so well publicized in the early 2000s is because of a rash of traffic mishaps/insults/accidents in which people followed the driver they felt slighted them. These drivers doing the following almost always escalated the situation and law enforcement's message was that if someone cut you off or did something that made you mad on the roadway, get their plate number if you can and let authorities handle it. Do not chase or pursue them. How quickly they've (police) forgotten.

The police aren't overlooking anything. They deal with facts not some over embellished web sleuther narrative.

 

[Kittybunny]

I grew up surrounded by crime. When I got my driver's license, my parents always told me if I'm being followed or feel someone is coming after me to drive to the nearest PD, FD, or hospital.

That reminds me of an incident I had when I was about 19 or 20, my girlfriend and I had gone to the mall and in pulling back out onto the main road I inadvertently cut someone off. Well this person went absolutely insane, pulled alongside us in the other lane and started throwing things at us, he had a passenger, a woman. I slowed down to let them pass, but they slowed down and then got right behind me and started following us all the time making gestures in the mirror. We just kept going and going hoping that they would get tired of following us but they did not. Upon seeing a sign for a hospital, we decided that we would pull in there. They had a huge parking lot and they still followed us in there and we were circling around and they were behind us finally we pulled up at the emergency room exit. At this point they left, but we were terrified that they were waiting for us still at the exit. The overreaction was insane and we were terrified. We waited for quite a while there and I think one of my friends might have gotten out to talk to a security guard. We definitely felt very threatened even though we originally made a mistake. I am not a gun owner, but if I were and felt comfortable would I have perhaps pulled my gun out and waved it? Maybe. Given their anger, I have no doubt that if they also had a weapon I would've ended up dead 100%.

Perhaps that is why I am so sympathetic to Sara in this case. If what was reported that he was coming up behind her at a high speed he could've just been in her Blind spot and she did not see him originally as he was passing her. Everything that happened after that point involved multiple individuals (including Sara when she swerved her car into his saddlebags) escalating a situation to an inevitable outcome. But Her fear and terror and as a pregnant woman must have been sky high and I just cannot fault her for feeling she had to defend herself in that situation. She was on the phone with 911. I just don't and never will understand why Derr and others had to follow her home when they already called police and had her license plate.

 

[Baciagalupo]

For some reason people are willing to give her the the benefit of the doubt and conveniently fill in a narrative that has not been officially established but won't do the same for the other three people.