Flight to London Gatwick crashes at airport in India .June 12 th 2025

[Dotta]

Dotta, that is the Daily Fail. Not sure it is trustworthy.

BBC

"But investigators are also zeroing in on what they describe is an interesting point in the report.

It says in December 2018, the US Federal Aviation Administration issued a Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin (SAIB) highlighting that some Boeing 737 fuel control switches were installed with the locking feature disengaged.

While the issue was noted, it wasn't deemed an unsafe condition requiring an Airworthiness Directive (AD) - a legally enforceable regulation to correct unsafe conditions in a product.

The same switch design is used in Boeing 787-8 aircraft, including Air India's VT-ANB which crashed. As the SAIB was advisory, Air India did not perform the recommended inspections."

Air India crash report: Cockpit audio deepens mystery of Flight 171 - BBC News

Fuel cut-off switches were flipped seconds after take-off, a preliminary report finds.

www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Charlot123]

Independent thought not tied to any post, but developing from only published MSM and from my personal family experience, pilots enjoy their jobs. It takes a lot to get there in the first place and I have never known one who said, "I'll take early retirement." Au contraire, they are usually in the camp of pushing for raising the mandatory retirement age...60, then 65, now pushing for 67.
Investigators are going through every part of the Captain and First Officer, personal/private/professional/emotional stressors/ medical & mental. (Everything from what they ate, drank and if they used their cell phones during periods of mandatory rest time.)
According to (now numerous articles) Captain S's time was "short." " 'Just one or two flights left, then I am going to be just with Papa.'"
If Captain had to catch a plane from Mumbai to Ahmedabad (flight ONE) and then Ahmedabad to London (flight TWO).
The incredibly sad pieces are beginning to fit...and even the airline is now stating he was on his way out of his job. My mind is imagining a man who is seeing "the end" of too much to handle...
"I hope I die first because I can't imagine a life without you." ???
Man-oh-man...this is really messed up...a lot of social & cultural taboos, secrets, resentment...just not wanting to go on?
Attempted suicide is a crime in India, but actually accomplishing the act is not! Go figure.

Decriminalising attempted suicide in India: the new penal code​

BNS Decriminalise Attempted Suicide in India

BNS removes Section 309 IPC, ending criminal penalties for attempted suicide in India. A crucial step toward compassionate mental health care.This is a transformational approach and gives support to victims of death by suicide and their families.

cmhlp.org

I would think of a different issue.

The captain passed his Class I medical exam on September 5, 2024. The FO, in February of 2025.

I don’t know the requirements but shouldn’t they be annual? It seems logical.

If so, two flights might be related to the time left before the next exam, and could be two, three or “a couple more”.

Supposedly it is something that they questioned last time, “OK, it may be nothing but if you have such-and-such symptoms, just come back”. Or even, “your hemoglobin is on the lower end, take vitamin B12 and some iron and we’ll check it next year”.

Seasoned pilots cost a lot, trained pilots cost a lot, pilot trainers cost a lot for the industry and I think certificates can be extended for a year because Class I doesn’t mean “excellent”, it means “fit for flying”, and he was fit, and flew well.

But he knows the symptoms. He watches them. And he does not want his ailing dad to become the caregiver?

(Too many things, blood in urine or stool, or even hands tremor could be an indication. I am asking what was the illness his mom died of).

Then “your son died in an accident” would be the best explanation.

Alternatively, it could be the young FO. He seemed to be more worldly, trained in the US, was a bodybuilder, typically a different set of issues, one has to look at all they use for muscle mass, but it is not impossible either.

I would like to know if the captain asked the FO to change seats before the takeoff.

Whoever did it… it would seem to me that they both sincerely tried to avoid hitting the external buildings on the ground, because the maneuvers seemed to limit the amount of ground damages. (Which would be logically explainable, as this was not the part of the “airport picture” and perhaps not even taken into initial account if someone planned suicide).

Here is a list of potential suicides by pilot by 2015. Feel free to add the ones since then.

Six cases of suspected airline pilot suicides - BBC News

Six cases identified by French investigators where airline pilots appear to have deliberately crashed, often resulting in many fatalities.

www.bbc.com

Additional question I am asking is if the pilots traveled anywhere for vacations and if so, where did they go?

 

[Charlot123]

BBC

"But investigators are also zeroing in on what they describe is an interesting point in the report.

It says in December 2018, the US Federal Aviation Administration issued a Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin (SAIB) highlighting that some Boeing 737 fuel control switches were installed with the locking feature disengaged.

While the issue was noted, it wasn't deemed an unsafe condition requiring an Airworthiness Directive (AD) - a legally enforceable regulation to correct unsafe conditions in a product.

The same switch design is used in Boeing 787-8 aircraft, including Air India's VT-ANB which crashed. As the SAIB was advisory, Air India did not perform the recommended inspections."

Air India crash report: Cockpit audio deepens mystery of Flight 171 - BBC News

Fuel cut-off switches were flipped seconds after take-off, a preliminary report finds.

www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

Still, a different plane, 11-years-old Dreamliner without prior issues, and two switches switched off, one after another?

 

[rabidstoat]

Here is a list of potential suicides by pilot by 2015. Feel free to add the ones since then.

Six cases of suspected airline pilot suicides - BBC News

Six cases identified by French investigators where airline pilots appear to have deliberately crashed, often resulting in many fatalities.

www.bbc.com

Aside from the 7 in this article (the 6 mentioned in the title plus the Germanwings flight that brought up the discussion), there are two suspected but unconfirmed pilot suicides of late.

MH 370, the Malaysian Airlines flight in 2014 that went off radar and disappeared, presumed crashed in the ocean hours later, is a highly suspected but unconfirmed pilot suicide.

There was a China Airlines flight in March 2022 that is also suspected to be pilot suicide. 132 died.

That may seem like a lot, but there are an average of 100,000 commercial flights daily worldwide. This is 36.5 billion a year. Given that, it's an exceedingly rare occurrence.

But exceedingly rare occurrences, of course, do sometimes happen.

 

[Charlot123]

Aside from the 7 in this article (the 6 mentioned in the title plus the Germanwings flight that brought up the discussion), there are two suspected but unconfirmed pilot suicides of late.

MH 370, the Malaysian Airlines flight in 2014 that went off radar and disappeared, presumed crashed in the ocean hours later, is a highly suspected but unconfirmed pilot suicide.

There was a China Airlines flight in March 2022 that is also suspected to be pilot suicide. 132 died.

That may seem like a lot, but there are an average of 100,000 commercial flights daily worldwide. This is 36.5 billion a year. Given that, it's an exceedingly rare occurrence.

But exceedingly rare occurrences, of course, do sometimes happen.

I honestly think that Zacharie Ahmad Shah, MH 370 pilot, was more of a political terrorist because of the day when it happened and what preceded it. This is where the then-Malaysian government did drop the ball. IMHO. Shah, no doubt, was an excellent pilot, and here again, the same situation: he with his experience was so worthy to the company. I can’t blame Malaysia Airlines. The government of Malaysia is another thing.

The China Airlines I have to look into. I am mostly interested in the age of the pilots who do it.

 

[Charlot123]

Mozambique Airlines 470 crash in Namibia - the captain, 49-year-old Herminio dos Santos Fernandes. 9000 flight hours.

Egypt Air Flight 990 - Gameel Al-Batouti
Age 59, 12,538 hours of flying time but before was a fighter pilot during Six Day War and a Yom Kippur war. He was not promoted to the captain due to poor English proficiency and was facing mandatory retirement. Lots of issues, family and personal, but a darn good pilot. Not poor at all. Interesting to read about him.

Air Botswana, 1999 - Chris Phatswe, 35, the only pilot. Mental issues, on leave, crashed an empty ATR 42. Announced his intent to do so. Explained by hating the company.

ETA: SilkAir Flight 185 - Captain Tsu Way Ming, 41, also a former army pilot, and First Officer Duncan Ward, 23, of New Zealand. CVR intentionally disconnected. While they never announced the culprit, more likely, the captain (heavy financial losses, insuring own life shortly before the flight)

Will continue

 

[Charlot123]

To continue:

Royal Air Maroc Flight 630 1994
The culprit: the captain, 32-year-old Younes Khayati, 4,500 flight hours. Just passed his physical examination. “One explanation for his action was a lovers' quarrel with his female co-pilot, picked up on the cockpit voice recorder, although investigators refused to confirm this.”

Japan Airlines flight 350 - Douglas DC 8. 1982. Crashed on approach to Haneda. 24 fatalities (most survived). The culprit: 35 y.o. Captain Seiji Katagiri. During descent, he “ cancelled autopilot, pushed his controls forward and retarded the throttles to idle”. The plane crashed into shallow water. Following the incident, Katagiri, “one of the first people to take a rescue boat, told rescuers that he was an office worker to avoid being identified as the captain”. Katagiri had become a pilot in 1979, but a year later, he was granted a three-week leave for what the airline termed a “psychosomatic disorder”, depression and gastritis. He was reinstated in 1980 but remained depressed and paranoid. (He can be found in Murderpedia.)

 

[Dotta]

Still, a different plane, 11-years-old Dreamliner without prior issues, and two switches switched off, one after another?

So...
Does it mean it is all slam dunk in OP's opinion???
Like,
'Nothing to see here folks, a pilot is guilty, MH issues, case closed'???

I thought it was a preliminary report.

Sorry,
but IMO
months of hard work still need to be done for investigators

I would be VERY cautious to lay the blame at this moment.

JMO

 

[indicolite22]

Still, a different plane, 11-years-old Dreamliner without prior issues, and two switches switched off, one after another?

That's why it doesn't seem accidental: one after another. Plus a huge assumption that the switch guards were not doing their job.

 

[Dotta]

That's why it doesn't seem accidental: one after another. Plus a huge assumption that the switch guards were not doing their job.

How does OP seem to be sooooo sure?
Wow!
So many "experts" stating categorically the blame.

Why do we need aviation investigators then,
if sleuths have ready answers after only a month??



Phew!

IMO!!!
Determining the causes of air disasters is usually a very tedious work.
Requires a detailed analysis of many factors,
including the technical condition of the aircraft, crew actions,
and other potential human or technical errors.

And it takes time.
Everything must be checked.

No 'tunnel vision' is recommended.

Victims, including the pilots, deserve this effort!!!

JMO

 

[indicolite22]

The position of the fuel control switches (bottom) vs the landing gear lever (top):

How to Manage Automation and Handle the Unexpected

Modern commercial aviation marvels us daily with its enviable safety record. Pioneers such as Donald Douglas, William Boeing and Dutch Kindelberger pursued

www.flyingmag.com

The landing gear lever is wheel shaped:

FlightSimPM/store

737 throttle quadrant for sale,737 mip main instrument panel,737 yoke pedestal overhead,737 landing gear lever MCP,flight simulator cockpit parts boeing,custom cockpit projects,plug n play parts

www.flightsimpm.com

 

[Dotta]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1944402086130548939

"The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) revealed
that the flight's two pilots, Captain Sumeet Sabharwal and First Officer Clive Kunder,
had exchanged remarks about the switches being turned off.

Another angle being looked at
is a fault in the MN4 microprocessor on the ECU (engine control unit),
an issue which was the subject of an FAA service bulletin in 2021.

This bulletin stated that accumulated thermal cycles could cause the solder ball to fail
and cause a loss of control from the flight deck."

 

[Dotta]

"For Families of Air India Crash Victims,​

Report Brings No Closure."​

Paraphrasing

A preliminary report focused on fuel being cut to both engines
and it only deepened the mystery for people grieving loved ones.

It included only a short, confusing snippet of the conversation recorded in the cockpit between the pilots,
where one asks whether the other moved the fuel switch,
to which the answer was "No".

The report said the investigation would continue
and further evidence would be reviewed.

Conclusive answers in plane crash investigations take months
and, sometimes, even years.

For Families of Air India Crash Victims, Report Brings No Closure

A preliminary assessment in last month’s disaster focusing on fuel being cut to both engines only deepened the mystery for people grieving loved ones.

www.nytimes.com

 

[musicaljoke]

So...
Does it mean it is all slam dunk in OP's opinion???
Like,
'Nothing to see here folks, a pilot is guilty, MH issues, case closed'???

I thought it was a preliminary report.

Sorry,
but IMO
months of hard work still need to be done for investigators

I would be VERY cautious to lay the blame at this moment.

JMO

Absolutely. I am in complete agreement with you.

I wish that the recording would be released to the public. There would be huge consequences for the owners and investors of Boeing if there was any fault found in the airplane. It would be an enormous advantage to find a reason to blame the pilot. I am not confident that those who are doing the investigation are shielded from bribery.

We have a pilot in the family, and he said that during take off, there is no way that the pilot or co-pilot have time to watch what the other is doing. All attention is fully focused on the work of getting the plane in the air. He suspects that there may be more to the recording than what is being told at this time.

Will we ever know what happened with certainty?

 

[IQuestion]

Absolutely. I am in complete agreement with you.

I wish that the recording would be released to the public. There would be huge consequences for the owners and investors of Boeing if there was any fault found in the airplane. It would be an enormous advantage to find a reason to blame the pilot. I am not confident that those who are doing the investigation are shielded from bribery.

We have a pilot in the family, and he said that during take off, there is no way that the pilot or co-pilot have time to watch what the other is doing. All attention is fully focused on the work of getting the plane in the air. He suspects that there may be more to the recording than what is being told at this time.

Will we ever know what happened with certainty?

Snipped and bbma, just to satisfy my curiosity. What sorts of "discourse/conversation" does he suspect? There has to be a reason just that part of the conversation was released. The investigators are trying to find the answers, not assign blame to anyone person. It is apparent to me, from the report, the black box recorded the "fuel cut off" buttons were activated and the conversation of the pilot(s) also provided visual and verbal confirmation of the same.

 

[Charlot123]

Absolutely. I am in complete agreement with you.

I wish that the recording would be released to the public. There would be huge consequences for the owners and investors of Boeing if there was any fault found in the airplane. It would be an enormous advantage to find a reason to blame the pilot. I am not confident that those who are doing the investigation are shielded from bribery.

We have a pilot in the family, and he said that during take off, there is no way that the pilot or co-pilot have time to watch what the other is doing. All attention is fully focused on the work of getting the plane in the air. He suspects that there may be more to the recording than what is being told at this time.

Will we ever know what happened with certainty?

Well…
For Air India, for Tata group, it would have been easier to shift the blame. They did not. So, illogical already.

Also, it is almost as assuming by default that the investigators are easily bribed.

I think it is not fair.

AI 171 crash investigators are a huge, international group, but predominantly, Indians. Just imagine that crash site in hot weather. Remnants of bodies and the airplane. Horrible.

And they had to go through it to find the black boxes. The aft card was corrupted but from the cockpit one, they diligently downloaded 40+ hours of information and went through it. What a sad and tedious job.

So to immediately assume that money changed hands while most
likely, they just finished a very saddening job is unfair to them.

I think that by not releasing all, they are protecting the pilots’ families. Whether a mistake, a medical condition or suicidal thinking, the families are victims, too.
I think that eventually, the investigators will tell us. But they have to explain what was happening in the life of the person before it happened. We are in the preliminary state.

I read about the families of the suicidal pilots. Lubitz’s one initially did not accept it. I can understand. It is impossible to admit that your beloved child ended up a suicidal killer.

Shah’s wife I feel very sorry for. She must have struggled with him (they were divorcing when it happened) and the family horribly struggled after the catastrophe. It changed their lives. Are they to be blamed? Not at all.

So here. If it is the captain, maybe it is humane to let his dad rest in peace before the knowledge is released. If it is the FO, to minimize the feeling of guilt of his family that was out of the country when it happened would be fair.

Anyhow - let us wait till the official final report is released. RIP all the victims. My condolences to their families.

 

[Charlot123]

So...
Does it mean it is all slam dunk in OP's opinion???
Like,
'Nothing to see here folks, a pilot is guilty, MH issues, case closed'???

I thought it was a preliminary report.

Sorry,
but IMO
months of hard work still need to be done for investigators

I would be VERY cautious to lay the blame at this moment.

JMO

No one is.

As a traveler, I am thinking of how to increase my safety.
I rely on these huge machines, on rules and regulations, on CRM.

I am also thinking that since 9/11, there has been a huge disconnect between the pilots and the passengers. In the past, we could see them entering the cabin, and they could see us. Now, even applauds when they land have disappeared. Very seldom you can see the pilot on exit and say, “thank you”. We see the rest of the crew (usually, very overworked - it is not their fault). I am thinking of how to bridge this gap. I think the pilots may be burned out, but they should not view us as part of their companies. And we should appreciate them more.

 

[Vaderman]

I'm currently finishing up a book on the disappearance of MH370 and I'm getting similar vibes with this case. Vague answers, dissatisfied families.

Why so much obfuscation surrounding air disasters?

 

[acutename]

Still, a different plane, 11-years-old Dreamliner without prior issues, and two switches switched off, one after another?

not 100% clear who did it if one of them is being devious? ...and any possibility the switches were tampered with or broken some how? seems remote but I have to keep a slightly open mind.

 

[acutename]

As a commerical airline pilot with a You Tube channel said: "The switches are not light switches- you cannot brush one with your hand and shut it off".

Rather, he explained that the switches need to be pushed down twisted, then pulled up, then moved to the new setting, then let go of.

In short, he stated that one cannot shut off the engines inadvertently. He also added that if one engine fails during take off, the training procedure is to always continue the climb (as other posters have noted), then start trouble shooting the engines.

The pilot also added that shutting down a failing engine also involves an elaborate system of double checks to ensure that the correct engine is actually shut down given the potential for disaster:

- Captain and First officer confirm which engine is failing. Both must agree on what engine is failing. The captain then gives shut down order.

- Co pilot announces that his hand is on the appropriate left verse right engine switch. Captain confirms correct switch is actually selected. Captain repeats command to shut down left verse right engine. Co pilot repeats that he is shutting down that specific engine- and then actually shuts it down.

None of that occurred in Air India. Rather, the pilot apparently shut the engines off, then denied it. The co pilot then turned the engines back on. But..... unlike Air Alaska and the drugged out jump seat pilot, the engines could not be re started in time.

If it is such a complex motion- (the switches need to be pushed down twisted, then pulled up, then moved to the new setting, then let go of) -how were they shut off one second apart?