Flight to London Gatwick crashes at airport in India .June 12 th 2025

[Charlot123]

I admit I am still puzzled by this case.
If Captain Sumeet Sabharwal indeed planned a murder suicide, why would he cut the fuel just seconds after lift off?
This was sure to cause a low altitude, low speed crash. If it wasn't for the buildings, the plane may have achieved a crash landing without the giant fireball, and far less casualties.

Is it possible that Captain Sabharwal intended to cause a low speed, low altitude crash landing? If so, why?

-

RSBM
He knew the machine and the timing. I think takeoffs and landings are the most difficult time, so it is easy to do so. Something makes me wonder whether on seeing people on the ground Capt. Sabharwal regretted it and tried, too, to avoid the crash, but we’ll never know.


Here is an interesting obituary about the captain. He surely was educated.

Sumeet Sabharwal Biography: Age, Wife, Family, Career, Personal Life, Death And Funeral

Captain Sumeet Sabharwal was born on March 9, 1973, in Mumbai, India. He grew up in a middle‑class family in the suburb of Powai, where education and hard work were always prized. Sumeet excelled in school, especially in mathematics and science, which led him to study engineering. After earning...

weconstek.com

I agree with the first option.

Whenever I'm travelling by plane
I always have this fatalistic feeling that these might be my last hours.
And, well,
I have no control over whatever might happen to me.

I never share these thoughts with my travel companions hehehe

But when we safely land
I can sigh with real relief.
Wow!
I'm STILL alive

But I don't think it is a phobia

JMO

Not a phobia at all. We all feel the same way.

 

[Dotta]

Hmmm....

Re pulling the switches in one go

According to

".... a Canada-based air accidents investigator, who wanted to remain unnamed....

Quote:

'It would be almost impossible
to pull both switches with a single movement of one hand...'."

Air India crash report: Cockpit audio deepens mystery of Flight 171 - BBC News

Fuel cut-off switches were flipped seconds after take-off, a preliminary report finds.

www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[CriLondon]

Hmmm....

Re pulling the switches in one go

According to

".... a Canada-based air accidents investigator, who wanted to remain unnamed....

Quote:

'It would be almost impossible
to pull both switches with a single movement of one hand...'."

Air India crash report: Cockpit audio deepens mystery of Flight 171 - BBC News

Fuel cut-off switches were flipped seconds after take-off, a preliminary report finds.

www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org

In my opinion , to put it into perspective, it's faster than changing two gears in a car .
And that doesn't take long , especially if one has done it hundreds, thousands of times .

 

[Dotta]

" 'All heart, kindest soul': ​

Pilot Clive Kunder ​

'Capable beyond his years
and unconditionally loving'.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1944875803776311301

Final farewell in Mumbai​

Clive Kunder
was laid to rest on June 19
at the Sewri Christian Cemetery in Mumbai.

Under grey skies and gentle rain,
friends, family, and colleagues gathered beneath a gazebo to say their final goodbyes to the young pilot.

The mood was solemn
as prayers were offered for a man remembered equally
for his skill in the cockpit
and his compassion on the ground."

 

[IQuestion]

The internet & YT pilots are now embracing or at least willing to accept this crash was the result of an intentional suicide/mass murder. Of course this a tragedy beyond words and inconsolable grief. But I need to get something off my chest that I think the pundits are missing per MY OPINION. The FO, Clive (Clifford), pilot in the right seat, the man who is holding the yoke....and he is pushing the throttle for take off.
The captain-in-charge, most seniority, older pilot, sitting in the left seat, monitoring the take off, shut off the switches to the fuel....
The younger pilot suddenly feels the loss of thrust as he catches the older pilot has turned off the fuel!!! "Why did you do that?" I imagine the shock of that realization takes a few seconds to process.
The older guy says, "I didn't do it." (Said the cat with feathers around his mouth..."I haven't seen the
parrot either." Oh brother.)
I think what we didn't or won't hear is the younger man reaching over to trying to restart the engines, literally fighting off the older pilot for control of the switches. He gets them switched on and the older pilot now must realize the words, "Why did you turn off the fuel?" is on a recorded line and the jig is up. He has been caught in the act!! And as a last act of trying to distance himself from his actions begins to yell, "Mayday, mayday, mayday...losing thrust...!!" Basically another, "I didn't do it" "the plane is losing thrust all on its own" and I don't know why. Total distancing himself from his actions. Maybe trying to "save face" to the end.
Maybe it comes from 20 years of Sleuthing and listening to so many 911 calls made by perpetrators....they always start out with what they want you to think happened....not what actually
happened.
I hope that makes sense. (Excuse the typos...please.)

 

[acutename]

Yes, but also, a talented pilot, a gifted boy from a poor family, a self-made man. Very self-destructive and lots of other issues, but as a pilot, so experienced. I think he was “not himself” for quite a while, or rather, it might have been his baseline, so the transition from “eccentric” to “bonkers” might have not been noticed.

I have paid attention to a certain pattern that seems common in highly functioning suicidal pilots, maybe we can discuss it later.

Is it like fire starter fire fighters? Criminal police? Homicidal drs/nurses? I was asking myself why a pilot would crash a plane (and kill lots of other people) to commit suicide, but maybe if you are in a plane all the time that seems like the way to die?

 

[IQuestion]

Is it like fire starter fire fighters? Criminal police? Homicidal drs/nurses? I was asking myself why a pilot would crash a plane (and kill lots of other people) to commit suicide, but maybe if you are in a plane all the time that seems like the way to die?

I read somewhere (embellishing someone else's thought.) If a lonely old bachelor commits suicide, no one would notice and he would easily be forgotten. But, if resentful/or full of bitterness at not being appreciated ...ergo workplace violence??? We have seen it over and over....a worker goes back to their workplace and commits an egregious act of violence against many other co-workers. In this case not only co-workers, but also against the company in order to damage their reputation.
FYI...3 Managers at AI were fired shortly after for not addressing workplace safety. HMMMMMMMM

Indian Authorities Order Air India To Terminate 3 Employees Over Safety Lapses Days After Tragic Crash

This follows the tragedy of Air India Flight 171.

simpleflying.com

 

[Charlot123]

Is it like fire starter fire fighters? Criminal police? Homicidal drs/nurses? I was asking myself why a pilot would crash a plane (and kill lots of other people) to commit suicide, but maybe if you are in a plane all the time that seems like the way to die?

No I don’t believe so at all. The true motives I won’t know. They may be different. Some people online mentioned insurance payment to the surviving relatives as one potential reason. Plus, some pilots may be scared that a known suicide might affect their families or simply, they have already tried and failed? A crash is foolproof.

We don’t necessarily know all suspected culprits in all cases, but it seems that pre-retirement age itself is a risk factor? Their lives are often a mess, divorces and whatnot, the circadian rhythms are off, but to us, they are demigods. Is potential fear of “loss of face”, becoming “a retiree” as opposed to “the pilot”, itself a risk?

I wonder if pre-retirement counseling could potentially help bring the risk down?

 

[Charlot123]

I read somewhere (embellishing someone else's thought.) If a lonely old bachelor commits suicide, no one would notice and he would easily be forgotten. But, if resentful/or full of bitterness at not being appreciated ...ergo workplace violence??? We have seen it over and over....a worker goes back to their workplace and commits an egregious act of violence against many other co-workers. In this case not only co-workers, but also against the company in order to damage their reputation.
FYI...3 Managers at AI were fired shortly after for not addressing workplace safety. HMMMMMMMM

Indian Authorities Order Air India To Terminate 3 Employees Over Safety Lapses Days After Tragic Crash

This follows the tragedy of Air India Flight 171.

simpleflying.com

There might have been a case, although only discussed, not officially announced, when a remarkably experienced captain was demoted to FO after his company was acquired by another one. This is exactly what should never be done, IMHO. So his retribution act, if he indeed committed it, was solely against the company, but these were the passengers who took the brunt of it.

One wonders who makes such administrative decisions and why. It could have had something to do with the pension or some other stupid economical reason, but to think of it, pilots are not robots.

Pilots have to have a unique combination of good engineering skills and quick reaction time that usually comes with emotionality. And, they have to be smart. I never heard of anyone who went into the profession out of love to the passengers; it is either the sky, or the aeroplane, or both. I assume they are paid well, but it is probably never the main factor. But just because pilots are rule-driven, who can be so obtuse to assume that pilots can be humiliated by the company and take it lightly? Or take a lot of pressure and be unbreakable? To praise and thank and reward the person soon-to-retire, to show the respect would have been so easy. (Not the AI case, but a general feeling about the field).

So the plane is the only thing an angry pilot has to get at the company. “The passengers” part plays a role. I assume the passengers are never meant to be hurt, but they are just not “in the frame” that the pilot sees when he gets into that black hole. IMHO, we the passengers are the part of a temporary team that forms during the flight, and our approval means a lot, but the pilots seldom see us these days. They mostly contact the crew. (So we have to take it into the account when we write reviews…the flight attendants are a major buffer. Be nice to them).

Now about firing the AI managers. I can only hope that the situation was used to fire bad managers who needed to be fired sooner but could not be because of “connections”. However, I am not sure. “Scheduling” might reflect the overall pressure to be profitable. If the top management of AI puts a lot of pressure on these low-level managers, and now fires them to show that they “take the situation seriously”, what’s the point? The top management themselves needs to be looked into, especially the aggressive ones. JMO.

Anyhow, it is not a consolation for the relatives who we all feel sorry for…including the pilots’ relatives. But how to “depressurize” the system of air transportation is a valid question, IMHO.

 

[Dotta]

" 'Raises questions, provides no answers’:​

What global pilots say on Air India plane crash report.​

The global pilots’ group ​

has cautioned against hasty conclusions derived from the AAIB preliminary report.​

Quote:

'As a reminder,
a Preliminary Report is merely the means of communication used for the prompt dissemination of data obtained during the early stages of the investigation
and only contains factual information and an indication of the progress of the investigation'.

It urges all parties to refrain from speculation and allowing the full investigation to run its course.

Also...

Civil Aviation Minister Ram Mohan Naidu clarified on Saturday
that the report on the June 12 Air India crash is preliminary.

He urged the public and media
not to draw conclusions
until the final investigation findings are released."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1945013265882292356

 

[JosieJo]

The internet & YT pilots are now embracing or at least willing to accept this crash was the result of an intentional suicide/mass murder. Of course this a tragedy beyond words and inconsolable grief. But I need to get something off my chest that I think the pundits are missing per MY OPINION. The FO, Clive (Clifford), pilot in the right seat, the man who is holding the yoke....and he is pushing the throttle for take off.
The captain-in-charge, most seniority, older pilot, sitting in the left seat, monitoring the take off, shut off the switches to the fuel....
The younger pilot suddenly feels the loss of thrust as he catches the older pilot has turned off the fuel!!! "Why did you do that?" I imagine the shock of that realization takes a few seconds to process.
The older guy says, "I didn't do it." (Said the cat with feathers around his mouth..."I haven't seen the
parrot either." Oh brother.)
I think what we didn't or won't hear is the younger man reaching over to trying to restart the engines, literally fighting off the older pilot for control of the switches. He gets them switched on and the older pilot now must realize the words, "Why did you turn off the fuel?" is on a recorded line and the jig is up. He has been caught in the act!! And as a last act of trying to distance himself from his actions begins to yell, "Mayday, mayday, mayday...losing thrust...!!" Basically another, "I didn't do it" "the plane is losing thrust all on its own" and I don't know why. Total distancing himself from his actions. Maybe trying to "save face" to the end.
Maybe it comes from 20 years of Sleuthing and listening to so many 911 calls made by perpetrators....they always start out with what they want you to think happened....not what actually
happened.
I hope that makes sense. (Excuse the typos...please.)

This theory clears a doubt I had about potential "suicide". I couldn't get the comment "I didn't " to fit ....but of course ..a pilot would know everything is recorded and may have hoped to not take the blame even after death

 

[Dotta]

I wonder why there are no cameras in the cockpits?

Is it considered as "invasion of privacy",
or what?

After all,
sound is recorded.

 

[Eloise]

I wonder why there are no cameras in the cockpits?

Is it considered as "invasion of privacy",
or what?

After all,
sound is recorded.

From everything I've read from pilots who have an opinion on CCTV in cockpits - this, exactly. They fear it an invasion of privacy that would see them be reprimanded or fired for behaviours, regardless of safety of the flight.

I feel like this could be remedied, surely, by making it the same as CVR/FDR data which is only ever accessed in the event of a crash, and is otherwise deleted after a flight. After all, it would also have the effect of proving a pilot didn't do anything wrong.

I am in a profession currently having its own reckoning with CCTV in the workplace, and it seems like people are split down the middle on 'invasion of privacy' and 'good, it means you can't make false accusations anymore'. I think its at least something to think about!

 

[Dotta]

There might have been a case, although only discussed, not officially announced, when a remarkably experienced captain was demoted to FO after his company was acquired by another one. This is exactly what should never be done, IMHO. So his retribution act, if he indeed committed it, was solely against the company, but these were the passengers who took the brunt of it.

One wonders who makes such administrative decisions and why. It could have had something to do with the pension or some other stupid economical reason, but to think of it, pilots are not robots.

Pilots have to have a unique combination of good engineering skills and quick reaction time that usually comes with emotionality. And, they have to be smart. I never heard of anyone who went into the profession out of love to the passengers; it is either the sky, or the aeroplane, or both. I assume they are paid well, but it is probably never the main factor. But just because pilots are rule-driven, who can be so obtuse to assume that pilots can be humiliated by the company and take it lightly? Or take a lot of pressure and be unbreakable? To praise and thank and reward the person soon-to-retire, to show the respect would have been so easy. (Not the AI case, but a general feeling about the field).

So the plane is the only thing an angry pilot has to get at the company. “The passengers” part plays a role. I assume the passengers are never meant to be hurt, but they are just not “in the frame” that the pilot sees when he gets into that black hole. IMHO, we the passengers are the part of a temporary team that forms during the flight, and our approval means a lot, but the pilots seldom see us these days. They mostly contact the crew. (So we have to take it into the account when we write reviews…the flight attendants are a major buffer. Be nice to them).

Now about firing the AI managers. I can only hope that the situation was used to fire bad managers who needed to be fired sooner but could not be because of “connections”. However, I am not sure. “Scheduling” might reflect the overall pressure to be profitable. If the top management of AI puts a lot of pressure on these low-level managers, and now fires them to show that they “take the situation seriously”, what’s the point? The top management themselves needs to be looked into, especially the aggressive ones. JMO.

Anyhow, it is not a consolation for the relatives who we all feel sorry for…including the pilots’ relatives. But how to “depressurize” the system of air transportation is a valid question, IMHO.

Hmmm...

Re the 1st part of the quoted post
(Captain vs FO)

From my observation,
people nearing retirement
are usually relieved when the work load put on them is diminished.

Older age has its drawbacks, unfortunately.
But this process is normal.

I noticed in my own workplace
such workers are usually glad to become mentors to the young, give advice
but ...
are unwilling to work too hard, never take overtime
and wait impatiently for retirement, aka "freedom" haha

JMO

 

[PrairieWind]

I wonder why there are no cameras in the cockpits?

Is it considered as "invasion of privacy",
or what?

After all,
sound is recorded.

Pilot unions have prevented them from being implemented.

 

[IQuestion]

Pilot unions have prevented them from being implemented.

No one is asking to have CCTV in the bathrooms, or rest areas. Just think how many questions could have been answered if only a video combined with audio would be available for the first 10 minutes and last 10 minutes of every commercial flight. I know there are cameras that can film only the instrument panel (hands moving) and the pilot's view. I don't find that to be an invasion of privacy. Very similar to the bodycams worn by Law Enforcement. Times have changed, the attitude of the public has changed....it is now an expectation in many jobs. For those who are resistant to change, just try walking through security with a large metal
belt buckle, an underwire brassiere or a metal thermos of hot coffee.... YOU AINT GETTIN' ON THE PLANE, until TSA says you can. "Safety" comes with the expectations of change. And, we don't have to like it.

 

[Charlot123]

Air India pilots' records 'being examined over mental health fears'

Captain Sumeet Sabharwal was piloting the Boeing 787 Dreamliner when it plummeted into a residential area, killing 241 people on board and 19 on the ground.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I hope they’d have the courage to tell us the whole story, including the part that might be “not so kosher”. Malaysia Airlines never did, but then, we haven’t found MH 370.

I have some hope of knowing the truth in this case because, 1) with Indian population, they won’t stop flying just because of one accident, 2) nowadays, it is the Israeli-Iran war that makes traveling to india so difficult, just ask their pilots, 3) Indians are in good touch with their emotions and would understand the human part of the tragedy

 

[PrairieWind]

No one is asking to have CCTV in the bathrooms, or rest areas. Just think how many questions could have been answered if only a video combined with audio would be available for the first 10 minutes and last 10 minutes of every commercial flight. I know there are cameras that can film only the instrument panel (hands moving) and the pilot's view. I don't find that to be an invasion of privacy. Very similar to the bodycams worn by Law Enforcement. Times have changed, the attitude of the public has changed....it is now an expectation in many jobs. For those who are resistant to change, just try walking through security with a large metal
belt buckle, an underwire brassiere or a metal thermos of hot coffee.... YOU AINT GETTIN' ON THE PLANE, until TSA says you can. "Safety" comes with the expectations of change. And, we don't have to like it.

I'm not saying I agree with it. But I understand their argument. If they agreed to the first and last 10 minutes, they open the door and they know full well it would not be long and the whole flight is included. They are concerned the video will be misused, and they have every reason to feel that way.

 

[Dotta]

Air India pilots' records 'being examined over mental health fears'

Captain Sumeet Sabharwal was piloting the Boeing 787 Dreamliner when it plummeted into a residential area, killing 241 people on board and 19 on the ground.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I hope they’d have the courage to tell us the whole story, including the part that might be “not so kosher”. Malaysia Airlines never did, but then, we haven’t found MH 370.

I have some hope of knowing the truth in this case because, 1) with Indian population, they won’t stop flying just because of one accident, 2) nowadays, it is the Israeli-Iran war that makes traveling to india so difficult, just ask their pilots, 3) Indians are in good touch with their emotions and would understand the human part of the tragedy

Honestly,
I take this talk about "depression" with the pinch (or a tonne) of salt.
C'mon!
His Mum died so it is obvious that the man was sad.
He took the bereavement leave.
So what?
In my country we also can take such a leave.
It is normal.
To help with bereavement process.
To organize funeral.

His bosses deny he had taken a medical leave.

Besides,
he considered "early retirement".
(According to report in a link quoted above)

So, IMO,
it was HIS decision.
Nobody forced him to quit.
Early retirement is always the decision of an employee.

If he wanted to spend more time with his Dad,
how come the man would sentence his old parent to misery of losing a son???
After already losing a wife.

But it is obviously JMO.

 

[Charlot123]

Hmmm...

Re the 1st part of the quoted post
(Captain vs FO)

From my observation,
people nearing retirement
are usually relieved when the work load put on them is diminished.

Older age has its drawbacks, unfortunately.
But this process is normal.

I noticed in my own workplace
such workers are usually glad to become mentors to the young, give advice
but ...
are unwilling to work too hard, never take overtime
and wait impatiently for retirement, aka "freedom" haha

JMO

As I have noticed, the pilots are not ordinary people. In my observation, many have stellar IQ. Many are “army brats” and start as military pilots (commercial aviation likes such resumes). They also have to work with modern equipment and consider this, even Shah before his suicidal act did things by the book. Even during, he did things according to his own plan, but still “by the book”, but being suicidal and detached, with a lot of anger. The pilots should be mildly obsessive and very rule-driven and while flexible and likely, non-judgmental, it is mostly a male group so the group mentality is corresponding. And yet, they have to respond to changes very fast so I wonder how many have slow MAO (“the warrior gene”).

What I have seen, there is a high rate of family drama. Maybe it just reflects generally high statistics of divorces.

By the time of retirement, many might be divorced, have difficult relationship with kids, are transitioning from very good salaries to pensions, and mainly, you know, they were gods, for their crews, for us passengers, and from there, to tank into oblivion… If you are a teacher, your former students would visit or call. My grandfather a urologist, had amassed hilarious postcards sent by his former patients. For many, retirement doesn’t break the connection with the former world. But in the pilots’ field, the passengers wouldn’t come to thank for delivering them safely, unless it was Sully (but what Sully had to go through before, to think of. For the company, it was that darn cost of the airplane that was insured anyhow).

So retirement must be a very hard moment unless the transition plan is well laid off, and this is why, the companies should invest into good counseling for the pilots, it is so cheap as opposed to the alternative. My expectation, the pilots should work well with women in individual counseling and with any gender, in groups.

(I am not close to aviation. I had a non-biological relative who was a pilot and observed a lot).