For those who agree with the verdict...help me understand.

[1Chump]

I agree, if the jury did not listen or consider the State's expert witnesses and if the jury relied on the Defense's opening statements which were based on neither evidence or fact, and if athe jury did not listen enough to realize that each of the Defense experts in the end agreed with the States experts, then yes, I believe the jury believed in "doubt".

Not IMO - but based on the factual evidence given at the trial and in evidence depositions.

None of what you posted was FACT but how you understood and determined the scientific evidence. The jury was instructed to make their own determinations.

The duct tape was NOT attached to any part of the skull when it was found. Listen to the testimony. Better yet, Juror #11 described both tape and positioning last night on Greta.

One piece was attached to the hair mat. The end of that piece of tape landed close to the nose/mouth area but was not attached. The other two pieces had been moved away from the body. It is speculation that the tape was attached.

Even JA stated over and over that three pieces of duct tape were on her face. Two of those three pieces had been moved away from the body. His statement of three pieces was clearly speculation.

 

[1Chump]

-Other robberies in the neighborhood. A former LE officer would know to report this, to add it to the mix, the more the better when the robber is caught!

-Use solen gas can incident to report missing granddaughter? She wasn't missing! ICA and CA talked every day! (Zanny and Caylee at Universal, beach, playing w/rich boyfriends son, etc.) ICA spent the night w/RM w/Caylee several times. They missed their granddaughter but didn't suspect foul-play (lies im sure but never MURDER). On July 4th CA posted on myspace something like "who is WATCHING/TAKING CARE of my Caylee" not "what has her MOTHER done to my Caylee."

-Why didn't GA force ICA to hand over Caylee when she threw the gas cans at him? Who is GA to do that? ICA was 21 years old and Caylee was her daughter! She wasn't missing! In hindsight we know Caylee was thrown away like garbage but GA didn't know that! Maybe he thought ICA was mad at CA thus keeping Caylee away or ICA was hanging out w/a new boyfriend? What was he going to report? What parent automatically assumes that your 21 year old daughter who calls every day about her, and her daughters, whereabouts, has actually killed and thrown away their granddaughter like garbage?

-Gas cans stolen and reported this to put ICA with the car. WHAT???? It was ICA's car, she placed herself in it every day (until the smell got really bad and we know the rest)....

George Anthony reported the gas cans stolen. He NEVER reported them recovered.

 

[logicalgirl]

None of what you posted was FACT but how you understood and determined the scientific evidence. The jury was instructed to make their own determinations.

The duct tape was NOT attached to any part of the skull when it was found. Listen to the testimony. Better yet, Juror #11 described both tape and positioning last night on Greta.

One piece was attached to the hair mat. The end of that piece of tape landed close to the nose/mouth area but was not attached. The other two pieces had been moved away from the body. It is speculation that the tape was attached.

Even JA stated over and over that three pieces of duct tape were on her face. Two of those three pieces had been moved away from the body. His statement of three pieces was clearly speculation.

Here's the difference and is my last comment in this thread. Most of us here, including me, have been reading the depos and watching the evidence hearings long before these people testified in court. I know what those documents said, and what they could testify to. The reason the SA changed the charges to a death penalty charge was partly because of the tape.
There is never a reason to have duct tape on the face of a child or anyone else for that matter. Speculation about the tape? Uh huh. Wow.

 

[1Chump]

I wonder how much evidence was left on Laci Peterson and little Connor's bodies when they were found....

Note - only quoted pertinent part.

Laci Peterson last seen at home. Only one other person lived in that home, her husband Scott.

Caylee Anthony, last seen at home. Three liars, George, Cindy and Casey Anthony all lived there.

The jury had to believe George and Cindy to believe Casey was the last one with Caylee.

George and Cindy both were too specific in their memories when it came to Casey/Caylee. George remembered the "exact" time Caylee left the house. He did not know that would be the last time he saw his Granddaughter yet he remembered the exact time, exactly what she was wearing.

Do you remember the exact time a loved one left your house to go to work or school or just left? Today, yesterday, the day before...the exact time. Or would your remember they left around "1 pm."

Do you remember the specific details and date of every conversation you had with someone you talk to every day? Can you remember all the details of a phone conversation from a month ago?

George and Cindy both claim they had no idea they would NEVER see Caylee again. But they remember EVERYTHING about Casey/Caylee for those 31 days.

IMO, they only have memory problems when it comes to themselves.

 

[pcrum12]

Here's the difference and is my last comment in this thread. Most of us here, including me, have been reading the depos and watching the evidence hearings long before these people testified in court. I know what those documents said, and what they could testify to. The reason the SA changed the charges to a death penalty charge was partly because of the tape.
There is never a reason to have duct tape on the face of a child or anyone else for that matter. Speculation about the tape? Uh huh. Wow.

But it is speculation. Even the SA kept saying it was over the mouth and nose and it was NOT. Testimony laid out how it was found attached to ONE side in the hair and draping toward the mouth but not attached. Same speculation as to the computer searches. SA harped that there was 84 searches even AFTER it was proven that it was ONE. Alot of people are upset at the jury and SPECULATING that they didn't deliberate and only listened to the DT OS. But, they did listen to testimony and concluded that the SA theory of such evidence was refuted by the defense and usually done so by FBI and state witnesses which made the SA appear to be hiding something. And that the SA STAR witness GA was not trustworthy on the stand because of HIS actions on the stand. JMO

 

[Chablis]

Here's the difference and is my last comment in this thread. Most of us here, including me, have been reading the depos and watching the evidence hearings long before these people testified in court. I know what those documents said, and what they could testify to. The reason the SA changed the charges to a death penalty charge was partly because of the tape.
There is never a reason to have duct tape on the face of a child or anyone else for that matter. Speculation about the tape? Uh huh. Wow.

So knowing that duct tape was used in family burials to secure and keep the bag tight, and we know animals got into the bag, why would it be so unfathomable for the tape to slip down?

 

[JayCeeVee]

Well, LE had their chance to find Caylee before the storm came in...they blew it bigtime IMO...and also created the Ray Kronk scenario by doing so...

This is so on target. LE seemed to have no interest in thoroughly searching the area where the body was placed. Had Kronk taken photos and presented to LE/news media in August, I would imagine there would have been enough evidence to convict, IMHO. I know if I found a body, I would shout it to the LE/media/whomever would listen...would probably stand guard until someone came who was in authority. Seems Kronk wasn't smart enough to keep hammering, of course, I also know that LE dismissed him but he didn't have to stop there. Imagine he was looking for the big reward but not judging, just speculating.

This was a debacle of errors by LE and they can be thanked for allowing a baby killer to go free. I pray that this sociopath does not make one dime off her baby's murder.

Prosecution should not have gone forward until they had a solid case.

 

[pcrum12]

So knowing that duct tape was used in family burials to secure and keep the bag tight, and we know animals got into the bag, why would it be so unfathomable for the tape to slip down?

Exactly. Thank you

 

[1Chump]

I understand your thoughts and intentions about this thread but it is really really hard to read complete misunderstandings about facts and jury instructions and leave them to lie there mistakenly being quoted as "truths". Really hard. No one is arguing feelings and thoughts - but facts? Hard to do.

We finally agree. Yet we do not agree at all...LOL

It is hard to see all these people who decided Casey was guilty prior to trial not respecting our Constitution by attacking the jurors.

The jury instructions were the biggest reason the jury had no choice but to find not guilty.

The instructions all stated Casey Anthony murdered Caylee or harmed Caylee. The State could only tie the evidence to the house not to an individual. Well, the duct tape was directly linked to George.

But everything else, they proved the items were in the house. The laundry bag stored in a garbage bag on a shelf above the washer. Of course, the State NEVER asked if Casey knew where that laundry bag was stored. I wondered if they found Casey's fingerprints or DNA on the garbage bag that held the laundry bag.

I wondered when Cindy came home and found the ladder in the pool, if she also found any of her garbage bag storage system on the floor. Again, it was not asked.

IMO, there were many times I felt the State did not ask the follow up question that would answer many of my questions. Sometimes the defense did ask and I understood. The State did not like the answer. It would have been better for the state to just ask. Instead, the State allowed the defense to score points.

 

[Salem]

Maybe I'm not listening to the right stations, but I'm surprised we aren't hearing more about the effect of sequestration on jurors. After the OJ criminal trial, there was quite a bit of talk about how jurors who are locked away from the world (even if the hotel is nice) tend to feel like prisoners of the system themselves and are more like to blame the State for keeping them locked up.

I'm not saying that happened here. But I have to wonder if the jurors, deliberating on a major national holiday, weren't in a hurry to go home. (The actual deliberation time--11 hours IIRC--isn't a problem for me. Although I will say that for the murder trial on which I was a juror (much simpler facts than this case) testimony lasted about 2/3 as long and yet we deliberated for an entire week. ETA: we were NOT sequestered.)

I think the sequestration had a huge impact on this jury. Marcia Clark, the prosecutor in the OJ case wrote a short article about it also - I'll see if I can find the link. This jury wanted to go home. They came dressed to go home the morning after they had been given the case. In my opinion they had an agreement that they were going home that day. They deliberated until 4:30-5:00ish and the Judge read the verdict at 5:15 ET.

I also do not have a problem with the amount of time that the jury deliberated, but I do have a problem with the comments the few jurors have made about how they reached the verdict. Juror 3 said she didn't believe there had been a dead body in the car. This is illogical. Even if they did not believe it was Caylee's body, there is no logical way to disregard practically every witness that took the stand and said there was a dead body in the car.

And Juror 11 says they deliberated over GA's guilt, not ICAs. Juror 11 was the foreman and Juror 3 appears to have a pretty strong personality. I believe they were instrumental in convincing the other members of the jury there was no need discuss ICA's guilt and if they did, they would be there for days, so just "listen to them" and we can all go home.

Its very disappointing to here what those that have spoken out have had to say. Very disappointing and I think it keeps everyone fired up because the more they talk, the lower our collective jaw drops.

Salem

 

[Salem]

So knowing that duct tape was used in family burials to secure and keep the bag tight, and we know animals got into the bag, why would it be so unfathomable for the tape to slip down?

Actually, the tape did slip as decomp happened. The key here is that the tape held the mandible in place. The mandible will fall away after decomp. Two experts testified to this, Dr. G and one other (I don't remember who). The mandible is delicately connected to the upper jaw. When decomp happens, the tendons (or whatever) disappear and the mandible becomes detached. In Caylee's case, the mandible remained attached. This was key in the duct tape theory. Without the tape, the manidible would have been separated from Caylee's upper jaw.

This is the kind of stuff that is so hard to understand. Why did the jury not review this information?

Salem

 

[pcrum12]

Actually, the tape did slip as decomp happened. The key here is that the tape held the mandible in place. The mandible will fall away after decomp. Two experts testified to this, Dr. G and one other (I don't remember who). The mandible is delicately connected to the upper jaw. When decomp happens, the tendons (or whatever) disappear and the mandible becomes detached. In Caylee's case, the mandible remained attached. This was key in the duct tape theory. Without the tape, the manidible would have been separated from Caylee's upper jaw.

This is the kind of stuff that is so hard to understand. Why did the jury not review this information?

Salem

It was also testified that the plant growth could have held it in place and that said plant growth could have been substantial enough to have done so within a 2 week period. IIRC

 

[1Chump]

I think the sequestration had a huge impact on this jury. Marcia Clark, the prosecutor in the OJ case wrote a short article about it also - I'll see if I can find the link. This jury wanted to go home. They came dressed to go home the morning after they had been given the case. In my opinion they had an agreement that they were going home that day. They deliberated until 4:30-5:00ish and the Judge read the verdict at 5:15 ET.

I also do not have a problem with the amount of time that the jury deliberated, but I do have a problem with the comments the few jurors have made about how they reached the verdict. Juror 3 said she didn't believe there had been a dead body in the car. This is illogical. Even if they did not believe it was Caylee's body, there is no logical way to disregard practically every witness that took the stand and said there was a dead body in the car.
And Juror 11 says they deliberated over GA's guilt, not ICAs. Juror 11 was the foreman and Juror 3 appears to have a pretty strong personality. I believe they were instrumental in convincing the other members of the jury there was no need discuss ICA's guilt and if they did, they would be there for days, so just "listen to them" and we can all go home.

Its very disappointing to here what those that have spoken out have had to say. Very disappointing and I think it keeps everyone fired up because the more they talk, the lower our collective jaw drops.

Salem

The smell that originated with George Anthony. Every LE person on tv has said that it is one of those smells that just thinking about, you can smell it. George Anthony started the smell of decomp. Everyone who testified they smelled decomp already knew that there was a smell of decomp in the car. Hence, they were more likely to smell decomp.

However, there was also a bag a trash in the car. A bag of trash sitting in a hot/humid trunk for at least 17 days. All the bug evidence was in that trash. They had no other forensic evidence that identified a source of the smell other than the trash.

So it is not ilogical or unreasonable to determine that the source of the smell was the trash.

 

[Chablis]

Actually, the tape did slip as decomp happened. The key here is that the tape held the mandible in place. The mandible will fall away after decomp. Two experts testified to this, Dr. G and one other (I don't remember who). The mandible is delicately connected to the upper jaw. When decomp happens, the tendons (or whatever) disappear and the mandible becomes detached. In Caylee's case, the mandible remained attached. This was key in the duct tape theory. Without the tape, the manidible would have been separated from Caylee's upper jaw.

This is the kind of stuff that is so hard to understand. Why did the jury not review this information?

Salem

The State said the remains were skewered around by animals, but somehow the tape stayed in place? And the tape has no dna on it from Caylee? I really dont think tape can hold onto dead skin, then re tighten around the skull. But maybe it can, I dont think we will ever know.

 

[Salem]

~Respectfully snipped~

So it is not ilogical or unreasonable to determine that the source of the smell was the trash.

I could buy this is I didn't know the difference between the smells of decomp and trash. However, I do. And I would have thought that at least one member of a 12-panel jury from a rural Florida County would have also known the difference. I find it hard to believe not one member on that jury has ever had the unpleasant experience of smelling a decomposing animal. It does NOT smell like trash. Plus there was not one piece of "wet" garbage in that bag and I will never buy the proposition that tobacco spit smells like decomp. That's just silly.

Salem

 

[Salem]

It was also testified that the plant growth could have held it in place and that said plant growth could have been substantial enough to have done so within a 2 week period. IIRC

I think I missed that. Do you remember who the plant expert was? I'll go back and check that out.

Salem

 

[Salem]

~Respectfully snipped ~

The smell that originated with George Anthony. Every LE person on tv has said that it is one of those smells that just thinking about, you can smell it. George Anthony started the smell of decomp. Everyone who testified they smelled decomp already knew that there was a smell of decomp in the car. Hence, they were more likely to smell decomp.

So this argument is "group hysteria"? That the smell was there because they expected it to be there? How do you explain the cadaver dogs? Are they part of the "group think (or group smell)" also?

Interesting argument. Doesn't convince me, but it is interesting.

Salem

 

[Salem]

Some links to what Marcia Clark had to say.


http://www.eurweb.com/?p=116791

http://www.businessinsider.com/brai...rs-came-up-with-the-not-guilty-verdict-2011-7

 

[kgeaux]

Actually, the tape did slip as decomp happened. The key here is that the tape held the mandible in place. The mandible will fall away after decomp. Two experts testified to this, Dr. G and one other (I don't remember who). The mandible is delicately connected to the upper jaw. When decomp happens, the tendons (or whatever) disappear and the mandible becomes detached. In Caylee's case, the mandible remained attached. This was key in the duct tape theory. Without the tape, the manidible would have been separated from Caylee's upper jaw.

This is the kind of stuff that is so hard to understand. Why did the jury not review this information?

Salem

Are we sure the mandible was actually "attached" to the skull? I was baby-sitting an active 2 year old the day Dr. G testified...In other words, it isn't impossible that I missed that! But I thought the testimony was that the mandible was attached to the tape, which was attached to the hair and wrapped around the skull. I do remember hearing testimony that the mandible is often found in a different location than the skull because only soft tissue holds it in place, and once the soft tissue is gone, the mandible is completely separated from the skull, and I totally understand that. BUT, the tape was not actually adhered to the skull, was it?

~Respectfully snipped~

I could buy this is I didn't know the difference between the smells of decomp and trash. However, I do. And I would have thought that at least one member of a 12-panel jury from a rural Florida County would have also known the difference. I find it hard to believe not one member on that jury has ever had the unpleasant experience of smelling a decomposing animal. It does NOT smell like trash. Plus there was not one piece of "wet" garbage in that bag and I will never buy the proposition that tobacco spit smells like decomp. That's just silly.

Salem

Well, you've made a statement that will fit the defense arguments! There was testimony that Casey had said a dead squirrel had been on the undercarriage of the car. If this is true, then there would have been an odor of animal decomp. The jury would have had to believe that the odor in the trunk was from HUMAN decomp, not from animal decomp and not from trash.

Thankfully, I do not know, and hope never to know, what tobacco spit smells like.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Well, you've made a statement that will fit the defense arguments! There was testimony that Casey had said a dead squirrel had been on the undercarriage of the car. If this is true, then there would have been an odor of animal decomp. The jury would have had to believe that the odor in the trunk was from HUMAN decomp, not from animal decomp and not from trash.

Thankfully, I do not know, and hope never to know, what tobacco spit smells like.

I'm sorry but using anything that Casey said to prove a fact in this case doesn't help me understand this verdict. I don't believe anything she said.