Forensic evidence

[UKGuy]

Sounds very plausible. I didn't remember that police had smelled peroxide.
Yes, that just about has to be what happened.

Re bare feet, UKGuy, ST said she had lint on her feet. Maybe from her socks, if not from walking around a probably-cluttered laundry room in the bsmt. Maybe she took her socks off because they itched or something.

Eagle1,

Well it not so much how or why they were removed, more why were they left bare when other items were covered, after all the story was she was put straight to bed minus only her black velvet pants.


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[Eagle1]

Eagle1,

Well it not so much how or why they were removed, more why were they left bare when other items were covered, after all the story was she was put straight to bed minus only her black velvet pants.

I've got it! Why no socks? Because little girls don't wear them with tights, that's why! And the lint was probably from the tights.

I'd already signed off and was watching TV when I remembered, when my girls were little and wore tights there were usually no socks under them, unless it was really super cold. There's not SUPPOSED to be any socks, let's put it that way. But if they were wearing boots, maybe going carolling, the socks wouldn't show. JonBenet wasn't going out in the snow. PR probably didn't even think of it.

 

[rashomon]

Good points,NP.Possibly the red shirt was taken off to dye her hair,and the scattered hair ties in her room indicate a struggle bet. PR and JB,from her being tired and not wanting to get her hair dyed that night.
The only other explanation I can think of for the ammonia smell is using it to clean and cover up evidence of some sort.

I have seen autopsy pictures from the back of JB's neck where her hair looks freshly dyed.
But I don't think Patsy would have used velvet ties to section off JB's hair for coloring. For they would have become dirty.
I do think JB's hair was dyed on Dec 25 though, but before they went to the Whites' party. It would make sense, taking JB to a Christmas party with her hair freshly dyed.

 

[Eagle1]

I have seen autopsy pictures from the back of JB's neck where her hair looks freshly dyed. But I don't think Patsy would have used velvet ties to section off JB's hair for coloring. For they would have become dirty.

I do think JB's hair was dyed on Dec 25 though, but before they went to the Whites' party. It would make sense, taking JB to a Christmas party with her hair freshly dyed.

I have to agree. There was probably some peroxide odor all evening, at the Whites', and apparently nobody but the officer noticed.

Also, JBR probably didn't wear any socks under her tights, reason she was found barefoot.

 

[BBB167893]

I looked for the autopsy just now. If you find it, perhaps you could show me where it states there was alot of blood.

I'm sure Rashomon will get to it, but here you go:

The autopsy mentions a scalp hemorrhage, using the word "extensive," and a subarachnoid hemorrhage covering eight inches by four inches, and a large bruise on the brain.

More importantly, the brain was swollen so much that it pressed flat against the skull. That takes time, a lot of it. 20 to 60 minutes, in fact. Werner Spitz, Tom Henry, Ron Wright and Henry Lee all say so.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,


You could be right, but her skull fracture was not visible, not even to Coroner Meyer until he did an internal.

I guess maybe her hair got tussled about and was combed and restyled then?I don't know,but it seems 3 things were trying to be covered up with the staging: the head wound,sexual abuse and manual strangulation.Perhaps the hair restyling goes along with that?Maybe they thought her head might swell a lot?

Scuffle? Possibly although this slightly changes the sequence of events from a rage/accidental death to a prolonged attack.

..not sure what you mean,how so?It could have been a very quick scuffle.

Well the pictures taken at the Whites might tell us if she is wearing hair-ties and what color, and where they are placed? In a court room any difference may confirm crime-scene staging.

true,that's why I wonder why the White's pics and the enhanced 911 haven't been released to the public.IF there's nothing to hide then why not prove it and release these items of evidence?(oh yea....that might blow the intruder theory apart).

Or she was wearing it as part of the initial staging, which after being revised and relocated to the basement, it was decided to redress her in her White party gap top? It was possibly ran under the tap, and wrung out, left lying on the counter, forgotten, alike the pineapple bowl?

could be,it seems JR sure was trying to account for it being there in DOI.

JonBenet may have been naked when killed, and her redressing, hair restyling etc could be an attempt to make her appearance as close to how she appeared at the Whites? Otherwise everyone saying Hey we all went to bed, and when we woke up JonBenet was gone would not make sense if JonBenet was undressed, her lack of socks has always been a mystery to me, e.g. underwear yes, longjohns yes, gap top yes, even a spare barbie gown, but socks nope, just bare feet!

me too.Wasn't she put to bed in all but the coat and shoes?Where are the tights then,have they ever been accounted for?

 

[icedtea4me]

Sorry, but I can't see JonBenet wearing tights under her black velvet jeans. She most likely wore socks which came off when her boots with the animal trim were removed.

-Tea

 

[UKGuy]

I've got it! Why no socks? Because little girls don't wear them with tights, that's why! And the lint was probably from the tights.

I'd already signed off and was watching TV when I remembered, when my girls were little and wore tights there were usually no socks under them, unless it was really super cold. There's not SUPPOSED to be any socks, let's put it that way. But if they were wearing boots, maybe going carolling, the socks wouldn't show. JonBenet wasn't going out in the snow. PR probably didn't even think of it.

Eagle1,

But did she wear tights under her black velvet pants? Patsy never mentioned removing any tights.

But you may be correct in suggesting there is not meant to be any? Since the longjohns could be a kind of tights, any thoughts on this?

Its a small detail but I think : why no socks, if she is wearing underwear?

The lint may be from her original socks, the inside of her boots/shoes may confirm this?




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[UKGuy]

JMO8778,

I guess maybe her hair got tussled about and was combed and restyled then?I don't know,but it seems 3 things were trying to be covered up with the staging: the head wound,sexual abuse and manual strangulation.Perhaps the hair restyling goes along with that?Maybe they thought her head might swell a lot?

Well her hair in staging terms, particularly the form it took, does not seem to have a great deal to do with the head wound which was hidden, her sexual abuse which again was hidden, and the manual strangulation again masked using the ligature? If JonBenet was the victim of an intruder then you might expect some disarray in her clothing and hair.

..not sure what you mean,how so?It could have been a very quick scuffle.

It adds another physical assault, e.g. JonBenets has abrasions on the front of her neck, a skull fracture likely delivered from the back a ligature applied from the back and injuries to the side of her face, all this some people consider a consequence of rage, but if you add a scuffle, its one more item added to whats meant to be an unintentional death?

true,that's why I wonder why the White's pics and the enhanced 911 haven't been released to the public.IF there's nothing to hide then why not prove it and release these items of evidence?(oh yea....that might blow the intruder theory apart).

There will be something in the pictures that contradict some aspect of JonBenet's staging.

could be,it seems JR sure was trying to account for it being there in DOI.

Yes the red turtleneck obviously played a part somewhere so Patsy invented this JonBenet wanted to wear her gap top excuse, it must be so important also, since Patsy comes close to incriminating herself and offering a motive.

me too.Wasn't she put to bed in all but the coat and shoes?Where are the tights then,have they ever been accounted for?

She had her black velvet pants removed, shoes/boots, and her coat I guess too, there were no tights, not unless the White photographs show JonBenet with tights etc, I doubt she ever made her bed, ST's toilet rage theory has muddied the waters here, she may have been in another bed, or another room, but not her own bed. Another theory I developed was based on the notion that they did not know JonBenet was dead, it made sense in explaining the staging but not the motive.


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[Rupert]

Patsy is dead. Why not release the "enhanced" 911 tape? Because it is BS.

Maybe they did it; maybe they didn't. But there is no sense in trying to restate something that is obviously false, only to sway one's opinion about who is guilty.

The new facts (peroxide smell) mentioned above are also suspect.

I'm going to reread the autopsy.

 

[Solace]

Patsy is dead. Why not release the "enhanced" 911 tape? Because it is BS.

Maybe they did it; maybe they didn't. But there is no sense in trying to restate something that is obviously false, only to sway one's opinion about who is guilty.

The new facts (peroxide smell) mentioned above are also suspect.

I'm going to reread the autopsy.

And why your at it, check out the similarities between Patsy's handwriting and the Ransom note. I will try to find a link for you.

 

[cami]

I don't know why the red shirt was balled up, and I think wet, right?

About the hair, I don't think PR was coloring it that night because (1) An odor would linger on the hair, (2) She may have wanted JBR to look very blonde for meeting Melinda's new boyfriend for the first time, but would know there would be a strong smell he'd notice, I think, and there was plenty of time before the next pageant.

In another thread, someone posted that serial killer Ted Bundy did a shampoo on at least one of his victims after her death, styled her hair. Maybe it's just a power thing.

It indeed was a power thing with Bundy. That was his motivation...absolute power over the death of his victims. Not only shampooed their hair but Bundy also applied make up, blush and lipstick. Considering he was a necropheliac, I think that might have been his motivation as well.

 

[Rupert]

I'm sure Rashomon will get to it, but here you go:

The autopsy mentions a scalp hemorrhage, using the word "extensive," and a subarachnoid hemorrhage covering eight inches by four inches, and a large bruise on the brain.

More importantly, the brain was swollen so much that it pressed flat against the skull. That takes time, a lot of it. 20 to 60 minutes, in fact. Werner Spitz, Tom Henry, Ron Wright and Henry Lee all say so.

Here's a link to the autopsy report:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/jonbenet/jonbenet_casefile.html

"The 1450gm brain has a normal overall architecture. Mild narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri are seen. No inflammation is identified."

Yes, extensive, but "no organization" or "inflammation". How can you say it was swollen?

 

[Rupert]

And why your at it, check out the similarities between Patsy's handwriting and the Ransom note. I will try to find a link for you.

I have. Patsy writing is somewhat alike to the RN. It could be her. Or, could we have a forger here? Is that too much outside of the box for you?

If it was an intruder, then it must have been a very clever intruder indeed. Remember: "Don't underestimate us, John."

 

[Solace]

I have. Patsy writing is somewhat alike to the RN. It could be her. Or, could we have a forger here? Is that too much outside of the box for you?

If it was an intruder, then it must have been a very clever intruder indeed. Remember: "Don't underestimate us, John."

Now now Rupert, lets not get testy. I know this is a frustrating case, but don't take it out on me. As far as an intruder or a forger and being outside of the box, imo, it is really stretching it to assume this is what has happened. An intruder comes into the house molests Jon Benet, kills Jon Benet and then writes a ransom note to look almost exactly like Patsy's handwriting, so similar, in fact, that you can superimpose some of the words and they almost fit. Is that outside of the box for me. Yes, Rupert, it is outside of the box for me. I do not ascribe to that theory.

And it is not only that, it is the fact that Patsy and John lie. They lie in every single interview I have seen them. What do they lie about. They lie about the fact that they agreed to take a lie detector test. John adamantly refused. Patsy refused when it came down to it. She finally did take one and didn't get it right until the third try and that was administered by Dr. Gelb, a highly, highly suspect polygrapher. Remind me to tell you about him sometime. His credentials are less than and this is documented.

I can even give them a pass hiring the lawyers as soon as they did, if they did not lie. But they do. And so, I think there is something more going on. Another thing is this. Patsy lies about touching the bowl of pineapple. Her fingerprints ARE ON the bowl. She says she neve touched it.

Also, during an interview with Tom Haney, she says she saw the heart on JonBenet's hand the morning of the 26th. He is incredulous and asks her again, and again and she is adamant. "I saw it". The next morning before the interview begins again, she says she would like to correct something, I didn't see the heart, I read it in an autopsy report. Meanwhile, down the hall, John is telling Lou Smit "We don't read autopsy reports". She made a mistake and she realized it. She did see Jon Benet that morning, very early that morning.

Also, when a parent loses a child and the child is found murdered and within TWENTY minutes is making plans to leave the area, that is suspect. Okay, you may think I am judging their actions, but speaking as a mother, it would be extremely hard to get me to leave my 6 year old within 20 minutes of finding her dead. I would have to be sedated and I don't mean with valium either.

Unless there is more evidence than we are aware of, we are never going to know 100% for sure what happened. But if there is more evidence, as I see has been posted here, such as pictures of Jon Benet at the Whites, such as her wearing the red turtleneck, that would be interesting. etc., we may find out. Not like Jeff MacDonald where I know 100% for sure he did it. I would say I know 99 3/4% that Patsy and John are involved. But there is that 1/4% because I have to rely on circumstantial evidence, as in the Peterson case.

The above is inside of the box for me Rupert and that is where it is staying until someone proves it wrong. IMO, they are involved in the murder of their child.

 

[JMO8778]

Patsy is dead. Why not release the "enhanced" 911 tape? Because it is BS.

I think it's because it's incriminating,same reason the White's party pics weren't released.

 

[Rupert]

I think it's because it's incriminating,same reason the White's party pics weren't released.

Interesting. Alot of discussion was going on between Steve Thomas and Fleet White. How come we don't see the White transcripts too? Does anyone have them? I have never seen them.

 

[JMO8778]

Interesting. Alot of discussion was going on between Steve Thomas and Fleet White. How come we don't see the White transcripts too? Does anyone have them? I have never seen them.

I haven't either.It seems anything that might be incriminating is being held back.IF it truly is believed there was an intruder,then why not prove it and release all the evidence?
I imagine there were

 

[rashomon]

I'm sure Rashomon will get to it, but here you go:

The autopsy mentions a scalp hemorrhage, using the word "extensive," and a subarachnoid hemorrhage covering eight inches by four inches, and a large bruise on the brain.

More importantly, the brain was swollen so much that it pressed flat against the skull. That takes time, a lot of it. 20 to 60 minutes, in fact. Werner Spitz, Tom Henry, Ron Wright and Henry Lee all say so.

SuperDave is right, Rupert.

I think it is the flattening and and narrowing of the sulci/gyri which refers to swelling, to answer your question to SD your other post.

Wecht left out parts of the autopsy report which mentions more of JB's blood in her brain (for example, the extensive are of scalp hemorrhage measuring 7x4 inches).
I suppose he did this deliberately to support his (idiotic imo) "Erotic Asphyxiation" theory, in which logically the head bash could not have come first.
But if there was so much blood in JB's brain and also swelling, the wound was fully developed and therefore could not have been inflicted post-mortem.

 

[JMO8778]

I haven't either.It seems anything that might be incriminating is being held back.IF it truly is believed there was an intruder,then why not prove it and release all the evidence?
I imagine there were

(my computer goofed b/f I got to finish)
I was going to say,IMO there are likely very incriminating questions that were asked,like what JB was wearing,how was her hair was fixed,how did the R'd behave that night..anything out of character for them? ..As well as things they said,did,what time they left(maybe it was sooner than what they said?), did they drink anything and if so,how much?,etc.I would think there would have to be something there for those not to be released.