Forensic evidence

[UKGuy]

Disjointed and unfinished sentece by Patsy:." No, because I put those - "
what is she referring to by "those"? Where did she put "those"? Did she stop herelf right in the middle of the sentence because she was going to say something incriminating here?
Another confusing thing: Patsy says that JB was wearing had the black velvet trousers to the White's party, and then says JB could have taken 'those' off, and got the dress to go to the Whites' party?
Would a sequined shirt and pants be referred to as 'dress'? Was that merely sloppy (or nervous) talk on Patsy's part?

Or were there two pairs of pants lying on the floor: the black velvet ones and another pair turned inside out and soiled?
In addition, it doesn't say that there was underwear inside her (soiled) pants turned inside out. Could it be that JB was wearing pants without underwear?
My head is spinning!
But this is a crucial issue, for it seems that no no size six panties (JB's size) have been found at the crime scene, only the far too large size 12 panties on the victim.

rashomon,

Yes it appears to an unfinished sentence, maybe she is thinking about the size-12's oops!

Another confusing thing: Patsy says that JB was wearing had the black velvet trousers to the White's party, and then says JB could have taken 'those' off, and got the dress to go to the Whites' party?

Not so confusing since it does not detract from or misdirect the subject of the photograph, but maybe she is confusing, mis-remembering JonBenet wearing her dress to the xmas-party, or simply mistating dress for dressed, whatever, but we can make sense of what she is saying! As you suggest possibly merely sloppy (or nervous) talk on Patsy's part? Or even deliberate confabulation.

Or were there two pairs of pants lying on the floor: the black velvet ones and another pair turned inside out and soiled?

No I think the Patsy removed the black velvet pants in her bedroom and left them there?

My current understanding is that the subject of the photograph was a soiled pair of pants, probably her play jeans, worn earlier xmas-day, in the absence of any further forensic evidence, it would appear we have two options:

1. If JonBenet wore underwear on Xmas-day, then when she changed for the Whites she kept her size-6 underwear on?

2. On Xmas-day JonBenet after removing her pink pijamas, did not dress herself in six-6 underwear, she only wore play-pants/jeans, hence the soiled pants on the floor?

From 1. it follows that the soiling may be from a prior incident?

Yes apparently no size-6 underwear has been found soiled or not!

The obvious thing to ask are the soiled pants related in any manner to her death, imo no, otherwise they would have been removed, at least put in a laundry basket elsewhere?

The interesting possibility is that JonBenet may not have been wearing underwear on the night of Dec 24th, and on Xmas-day, this is one question I have never been able to answer: did JonBenet normally wear underwear to bed? Since she wet the bed I suspect not, so the absence of underwear may not suggest anything unusual.

Which then begs the million dollar question: Did JonBenet wear any underwear to the White's Party?

Unless she was chaperoned to the toilet nobody may know if JonBenet was wearing underwear?

Also if JonBenet slept without underwear, why place size-12's on her during the staging?

Whichever way you interpret it, there appears to be something odd here, as a handle I'll call it the Missing Underwear question.



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[Eagle1]

When she took off her outer pants and undies that she left inside out on the bathroom floor, do we know what size those undies were? Don't BPD still have them in custody?

Yes, any way you slice it, the size 12's are an oddity.

 

[UKGuy]

When she took off her outer pants and undies that she left inside out on the bathroom floor, do we know what size those undies were? Don't BPD still have them in custody?

Yes, any way you slice it, the size 12's are an oddity.

Eagle1,

I've not seen the size of any underwear found on her bathroom floor being stated anywhere.

She may not have been wearing any underwear Xmas day, else I assume it would be the underwear that would have been the subject of discussion and not her pants/jeans?


.

 

[Eagle1]

Eagle1,

I've not seen the size of any underwear found on her bathroom floor being stated anywhere.

She may not have been wearing any underwear Xmas day, else I assume it would be the underwear that would have been the subject of discussion and not her pants/jeans?


.

The way JonBenet was probably being molested, by someone known to the family imo who was at the party on the 23rd, when the child was calling a halt to it, we should probably understand and excuse her (growing?) failure to wipe well and any other shortcomings.

It seems I've heard that BPD have the size 6 undies, and if so, probably that was the pair left in the middle of the bathroom floor with some long pants that were inside out, as if she shed them herself.

 

[Ames]

Why would Patsy say that JB had "gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's", when we know that JB was wearing a white shirt, and black velvet pants...as Patsy states in the first part of the interview below. Maybe JB changed her mind about what to wear? Maybe its just, yet, another inconsistant statement from Patsy. Where does this red shirt that Patsy says they argued about fit in?


21 PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- I can't imagine

22 that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out

23 asleep, so I put her to bed. And she had those, she

24 had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's.

25 What she had on earlier that day, I just

0459

1 can't remember. It might have been those. I just

2 can't remember. Could have taken those off, you know,

3 gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's and then left

4 them there.

 

[UKGuy]

Why would Patsy say that JB had "gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's", when we know that JB was wearing a white shirt, and black velvet pants...as Patsy states in the first part of the interview below. Maybe JB changed her mind about what to wear? Maybe its just, yet, another inconsistant statement from Patsy. Where does this red shirt that Patsy says they argued about fit in?


21 PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- I can't imagine

22 that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out

23 asleep, so I put her to bed. And she had those, she

24 had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's.

25 What she had on earlier that day, I just

0459

1 can't remember. It might have been those. I just

2 can't remember. Could have taken those off, you know,

3 gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's and then left

4 them there.

Ames,

It probably doesn't fit in and although it would seem as if Patsy was about to launch herself into some explanation regarding JonBenet and a dress she tailed off, and likely decided it might be best to say nothing, since as we all know now the underwear is as crucial as the pineapple in this case. Remember whatever Patsy was going to state about the dress and JonBenet may have been fiction!


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[Solace]

Its unlikely that JonBenet was killed accidently, accidents do not need homicides to mask them, particularly one as violent as that portrayed in the wine-cellar.

The wine-cellar staging was plan-B as evidenced by John Ramsey's desire to leave Colorado by plane, the morning of the 911 call, this was its likely true motivation.

JonBenet had been murdered then a staging applied this was then revised to that of the wine-cellar in the hope that the Ramsey's could exit interstate, that was the strategy, and it nearly worked.

Somebody fuelled by immense anger decided to take JonBenet out she was subjected to numerous head injuries, not discounting the cranial fracture, and asphyxiated, or it was the other way round, whichever, this was no accident.


.[/QUOTE]UK YOU SAY: Its unlikely that JonBenet was killed accidently, accidents do not need homicides to mask them, particularly one as violent as that portrayed in the wine-cellar.

I have to disagree with this. Let's say this is an accident and done by Patsy in a fit of rage she pulls JB and yanks her around the bathroom for whatever reason, a sassy mouth, not wanting to wear the turtleneck to bed (if Patsy wanted to predress her partially for the morning), whatever. So she in a rage throws her across the bathroom. She is only 40 pounts and a feather and Patsy could certainly have done this.

Remember Cyrill Wecht said there were two black and blue marks on each side of the cranium, the result of being shaken. As if someone threw her and she then collapsed and in their frantic try to wake JB left two bruises on each side of her head (the inside).

Patsy can't wake her and is frantic and believes she has done incredible damage and rather than undergo public scrutiny that this was an accident, she takes a left turn as Steve Thomas says, and finishes her off.

You don't see this happening at all?

 

[UKGuy]

Its unlikely that JonBenet was killed accidently, accidents do not need homicides to mask them, particularly one as violent as that portrayed in the wine-cellar.

The wine-cellar staging was plan-B as evidenced by John Ramsey's desire to leave Colorado by plane, the morning of the 911 call, this was its likely true motivation.

JonBenet had been murdered then a staging applied this was then revised to that of the wine-cellar in the hope that the Ramsey's could exit interstate, that was the strategy, and it nearly worked.

Somebody fuelled by immense anger decided to take JonBenet out she was subjected to numerous head injuries, not discounting the cranial fracture, and asphyxiated, or it was the other way round, whichever, this was no accident.


.

UK YOU SAY: Its unlikely that JonBenet was killed accidently, accidents do not need homicides to mask them, particularly one as violent as that portrayed in the wine-cellar.

I have to disagree with this. Let's say this is an accident and done by Patsy in a fit of rage she pulls JB and yanks her around the bathroom for whatever reason, a sassy mouth, not wanting to wear the turtleneck to bed (if Patsy wanted to predress her partially for the morning), whatever. So she in a rage throws her across the bathroom. She is only 40 pounts and a feather and Patsy could certainly have done this.

Remember Cyrill Wecht said there were two black and blue marks on each side of the cranium, the result of being shaken. As if someone threw her and she then collapsed and in their frantic try to wake JB left two bruises on each side of her head (the inside).

Patsy can't wake her and is frantic and believes she has done incredible damage and rather than undergo public scrutiny that this was an accident, she takes a left turn as Steve Thomas says, and finishes her off.

You don't see this happening at all? [/QUOTE]

Solace,

I'm not saying your scenario never occurred simply that the weight of the forensic evidence suggests it did not.

Also:

Patsy can't wake her and is frantic and believes she has done incredible damage and rather than undergo public scrutiny that this was an accident, she takes a left turn as Steve Thomas says, and finishes her off

If it had been an accident then like the time when JonBenet was accidently whacked by a golf-club, and she was rushed to hospital, here a similar choice was available, yet this was not pursued, and as you suggest Patsy finishes JonBenet off!

This is murder it is not an accident, it is also compounded by her sexual assault, is that another accident?


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[Solace]

UK YOU SAY: Its unlikely that JonBenet was killed accidently, accidents do not need homicides to mask them, particularly one as violent as that portrayed in the wine-cellar.

I have to disagree with this. Let's say this is an accident and done by Patsy in a fit of rage she pulls JB and yanks her around the bathroom for whatever reason, a sassy mouth, not wanting to wear the turtleneck to bed (if Patsy wanted to predress her partially for the morning), whatever. So she in a rage throws her across the bathroom. She is only 40 pounts and a feather and Patsy could certainly have done this.

Remember Cyrill Wecht said there were two black and blue marks on each side of the cranium, the result of being shaken. As if someone threw her and she then collapsed and in their frantic try to wake JB left two bruises on each side of her head (the inside).

Patsy can't wake her and is frantic and believes she has done incredible damage and rather than undergo public scrutiny that this was an accident, she takes a left turn as Steve Thomas says, and finishes her off.

You don't see this happening at all?

Solace,

I'm not saying your scenario never occurred simply that the weight of the forensic evidence suggests it did not.

Also:
If it had been an accident then like the time when JonBenet was accidently whacked by a golf-club, and she was rushed to hospital, here a similar choice was available, yet this was not pursued, and as you suggest Patsy finishes JonBenet off!

This is murder it is not an accident, it is also compounded by her sexual assault, is that another accident?


.[/QUOTE]UK, Thanks so much for responding. When JB was whacked by a golf club, she was alive and kicking and awake when she went to the hospital and immediately checked to see if she would need plastic surgery. Big difference. It was Berke who did it. Hardly comparable, in my humble opinion.

I really believe that Patsy was basically insane with rage when she did it. The reason I believe it was a very SEVERE accident, is because of the bruising to both sides of the head. Someone is franctic and trying to revive her. I think the sexual assault was part of the staging downstairs. If you are going to go so far as to carry your child to the basement, staging a sexual assault is not far from the next step for you. Just the act of carrying her down to the basement tells me that these "stagers" are up for anything to save themselves. And also, the sexual assault is integral to an intruder theory.

The prior alleged sexual abuse could it not be from one or two things. She was sexually molested or Patsy was giving her douches to clean her up. She said she had constant infections from wet underwear. She was heard screaming at her on a daily basis in the bathroom and JB screaming and crying also. But lets say it was prior sexual abuse, Patsy may not have known anything about it.

 

[rashomon]

Are there any people with medical knowledge here or who could ask doctors (esp. hematologists or trauma specialists) about this:

1) A poster on the Crimelibray site wrote that in case a child sustained an injury of the type JB had, and the wound did not kill the child right away, her head would have swollen to double its size in a time span of 20 - 60 minutes.
This poster claims to be an ER doc, and sounds very credible imo.
But the problem in the JBR case is that even doctors seem to disagree about the forensic evidence.

2) This poster also pointed out the autopsy report stating that some of the blood in JB's head shows little signs of organization. 'Organization' is a medical term meaning hemostasis (blod clotting), which sets in immediately after an injury as the body's attempt to save itself from bleeding to death.
the lack of organization , o this poster, would also indicate that JB ws strangled imediately after the head blow, since the blood in her brain had no time to clot.

3) Another claim: a person has to be breathing vigorously for petechiae to occur. True or false?

A question I would like to have answered in that context.
Does there exist a stage where a person is not yet dead but the bodily functions are already too impaired to develop hemostasis? A stage where the (still alive) body is just not able to kick into high gear anymore in an attempt to save itself?

 

[rashomon]

[UKGuy]
rashomon,

Assuming it was Patsy and not John.

Save her hide and not JonBenet's life, you reckon JonBenet's injuries were all inflicted at once or were they inflicted separately?

Did JonBenet fall down and die immediately, or was she assaulted further to make sure she was dead?

Dead people cannot talk thats why JonBenet was killed.

The forensic evidence indicates that the head bash came before the strangulation. If JB had died immediately after the head blow, the wound woud not have bled, nor would there have been blod clots (see Dr. Spitz's reference to the blood clots in her brain - Dr. Spitz reviewed about 100 autopsy photos).
The head wound was so severe that it most likely resulted in instant coma. I believe that after the head blow, a shocked Patsy confided in John.
We have no way of finding out whether the Ramseys knew JB was already dead after the head blow. jmo

 

[jubie]

I think if Patsy knew JonBenet was still alive she would have called 911. I think the extreme cover-up is a result of PR believing she had killed JonBenet.

Self-preservation is very powerful. Just look at the type of people both John and Patsy showed themselves to be, they were 'above' the police and 'common' people. Can anyone honestly see Patsy owning up to killing her own little girl? No way. It wasn't until years later that I started to see how they could have covered up her death, it was after seeing their arrogant attitude over and over (not to mention all the lies)that I realized there was no way either of them would admit such a tragic accident.

Jubie

 

[Ames]

I think if Patsy knew JonBenet was still alive she would have called 911. I think the extreme cover-up is a result of PR believing she had killed JonBenet.

Self-preservation is very powerful. Just look at the type of people both John and Patsy showed themselves to be, they were 'above' the police and 'common' people. Can anyone honestly see Patsy owning up to killing her own little girl? No way. It wasn't until years later that I started to see how they could have covered up her death, it was after seeing their arrogant attitude over and over (not to mention all the lies)that I realized there was no way either of them would admit such a tragic accident.

Jubie

I also believe that Patsy and John both, thought that JB was dead...after the headwound. Her heartbeat, I am sure...was faint...she was unconscious...and most likely bleeding from her nose and/or mouth. (Look at the thread that I started..."Did JB have a nosebleed the night she died?"...I posted some info. from a medical website that states that severe headwounds cause bleeding from the mouth, ears or nose...or all of the above) So from the looks of it, she was dead. And they were not in the medical field...so they probably didn't have a way to check her pulse, except for feeling her pulse with her wrist...or the side of her neck. I am sure they didn't have a stethoscope lying around the house. Anyway, I believe that her pulse was so faint, that they couldn't feel it...and with all of the other signs...unconsciousness, fracture skull, bleeding from the ears, nose and/or mouth, for all practical purposes...she looked and felt dead to them. IMO IMO

 

[jubie]

When my grandma was very ill and we all new she would not be with us much longer I would sit beside her and read to her, there were two times I thought for sure she had passed (she was at home where she was most comfortable so no fancy machines to check for breathing and heart rate) and I wasn't a freaked out mother who just killed her child. So, yes it is very possible that PR and JR couldn't detect a pulse...

Imagine if they found just a flutter of a pulse I bet they'd have called 911, she still would have died but everything would have been sooo very different.

 

[JMO8778]

I'd like to think so,but,wouldn't they have still held out hope,if that were the case? ie-call 911,we'll try CPR to see if we can get a response from her,etc.It appears that for some reason or reasons,they didn't want to hold out any hope for her.

 

[Ames]

I'd like to think so,but,wouldn't they have still held out hope,if that were the case? ie-call 911,we'll try CPR to see if we can get a response from her,etc.It appears that for some reason or reasons,they didn't want to hold out any hope for her.

I imagine its because Patsy caused the injury, accidently...and thought that she was dead....was positive that she was dead, and Patsy didn't think that she would look good in jail house stripes. I believe that if they had of felt a faint heartbeat, and have known that JB was still alive and breathing, even though barely....I believe that they would HAVE called 911. IMO

 

[Solace]

I imagine its because Patsy caused the injury, accidently...and thought that she was dead....was positive that she was dead, and Patsy didn't think that she would look good in jail house stripes. I believe that if they had of felt a faint heartbeat, and have known that JB was still alive and breathing, even though barely....I believe that they would HAVE called 911. IMO

That 81/2 inch crack in her skull with a dislodged rectangular piece of skull at the left back side of her head, might have been a clue that she was not going to make it. How could they not have felt that? They had to have.

 

[BBB167893]

I would like to know what her breathing would be like after she had sustained a blow like that.

Extremely shallow, due to shock.

And they were not in the medical field...so they probably didn't have a way to check her pulse, except for feeling her pulse with her wrist...or the side of her neck. I am sure they didn't have a stethoscope lying around the house. Anyway, I believe that her pulse was so faint, that they couldn't feel it...and with all of the other signs...unconsciousness, fracture skull, bleeding from the ears, nose and/or mouth, for all practical purposes...she looked and felt dead to them.

And in the state of mind they must have been in, they wouldn't know it if they knew it.

 

[Ames]

<snipped>

And in the state of mind they must have been in, they wouldn't know it if they knew it.

Yep, thats for sure!!!

 

[DeeDee249]

Are there any people with medical knowledge here or who could ask doctors (esp. hematologists or trauma specialists) about this:

1) A poster on the Crimelibray site wrote that in case a child sustained an injury of the type JB had, and the wound did not kill the child right away, her head would have swollen to double its size in a time span of 20 - 60 minutes.
This poster claims to be an ER doc, and sounds very credible imo.
But the problem in the JBR case is that even doctors seem to disagree about the forensic evidence.

2) This poster also pointed out the autopsy report stating that some of the blood in JB's head shows little signs of organization. 'Organization' is a medical term meaning hemostasis (blod clotting), which sets in immediately after an injury as the body's attempt to save itself from bleeding to death.
the lack of organization , o this poster, would also indicate that JB ws strangled imediately after the head blow, since the blood in her brain had no time to clot.

3) Another claim: a person has to be breathing vigorously for petechiae to occur. True or false?

A question I would like to have answered in that context.
Does there exist a stage where a person is not yet dead but the bodily functions are already too impaired to develop hemostasis? A stage where the (still alive) body is just not able to kick into high gear anymore in an attempt to save itself?

There must be. I am sure after a severe trauma there is a stage before the heart actually stops pumping where the blood pressure drops enough to have petechiae occur, but not enough for severe hemmorhage.