Forensic evidence

[sister]

This is a very, very good point. Would a man stage a sex crime? Would a dad stage a sex crime on his own daughter?

Isn't the purpose of staging to direct the focus of the crime away from yourself. For a mother, a sex crime staging would be perfect, but it could be a disaster for the dad.

Sorry - I meant to reply to this post (see above).

 

[Solace]

I agree - how could a father stage a sex crime on his own daughter?
Similarly, I have a hard time believing that any mother, including Patsy, could do to her child what was done to JonBenet. I don't get the impression that Patsy was an evil, cruel person. If she did aciidentally harm JonBenet, how could she be in a state of mind to plan all the staging?

Hi Sister,

I don't think she was in a state of mind to do all this. That is why we have a three page ransom note, that is why there are no fingerprints on the flashlight at all or on the batteries - it is fairly horrendous to defile your child like this. But I think she believed JONBenet was dead and there was no use her going to jail - they had Burke to think of. At least I think she said that to John. Steve Thomas does not believe that John aided but I think he did. Just the fact that he let all those people come to the house tells me he knew something more than he was saying. The fact that a threat to kill your child if you call anyone is COMPLETELY IGNORED, COMPLETELY AND THE fact that the ransom money is collected but never picked up, tells me John knew more. Actually, I am surprised at Steve Thomas that he lets him off in his theory.

I think Patsy may very well have gotten the tape which by the way is used in pageants - it was a certain kind of tape that is used in pageants and other things, but also in pageants for taping costumes. I think she also collected the rope. I think John may have taken over at that point and that is how his sweater fibers are found in JB's crotch.

They also locked the door to where JonBenet was hidden. This is a mistake that they later defend by saying "I can see a very evil man locking the door behind him to throw us off". It was a mistake, they did not mean to do that.

I am sure there is more, but that is all I can think of. Anyone else care to add on some mistakes that were made by the Ramseys.

 

[Ames]

\
As I understand the pubic hair was not a pubic hair at all but a hair from Patsy's arm.

Also the link you provided says : The link is either outdated, inaccurate or may be in the process of being updated.

Yep, I read that it was Patsy's underarm hair. She was not a very good housekeeper, and obviously not a very good groomer, either. I think that she was just basically lazy. She must have let her armpits grow, until they looked like a forest.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

Absolutely agree that she was involved, but did she deliver the final blow?

I don't believe there was a final blow, but that the head blow came first.
And that all the actions of staging which followed were meant to direct attention away from the head blow (delivered by an enraged parent) being at the origin.

[UKGuy]
What you say sounds reasonable except you seem to agree Patsy enacted some staging, so why does John collude, why does he involve himself in what is now patently a case of cold blooded murder. e.g. if its improbable for Patsy to become engaged in John's staging after he has killed JonBenet, then explain cogently why John should become involved in Patsy's staging after she has killed JonBenet?

[JMO 8778]
JR was a businessman and image to him was everything.How would it have looked for him to have a killer for a wife,in his position? I think it would have been pretty embarrassing to him,and that's putting it lightly.
I think MONEY and IMAGE,above all,was most important to him,and THAT is why he helped out...I think we all underestimate the power of that if we think it was all just b/c he felt sorry for Patsy...I don't think he did.He'd already lost one daughter,and I think he was seething at her at this point.Thus the reason neither comforted each other that morning,nor did JR comfort a crying Patsy later on at a restaurant when she fell apart.He ignored her.

I see John's role mostly as that of a bystander, who helped somewhat with the staging. I think John is a very calculating person who quickly let this run through in his mind: the damage was already done, nothing would bring JB back and in view of the public scandal this would cause should Patsy be publicly exposed as the killer of their daughter, agreed that they stage a scene since this was their ONLY chance to get away with it.

[UKGuy]
Now John Ramsey as a business man can be seen to also adopt some of these ploys, but he must have realized, he would have no image left to defend once JonBenet's corpse was discovered strangled and sexually assaulted in his own basement. His then curtailed career path is a testament to this, and his subsequent sideline in generating revenue based on events relating to the death of JonBenet, e.g. J.M. Karr, demonstrates he values capital over image.

But if police and public had swallowed the Ramseys' concocted story, their image would not have been ruined at all, so John could not know beforehand if their story would be bought or not.

[UKGuy]

Consider at a later date Patsy defending John from allegations of molesting JonBenet, by citing the presence of Nedra. So did John not see this coming, did he never think, now Patsy killed JonBenet and staged an intruder scenario that has a sexual component, hey, they might think it was me?

So why does he ever get involved, why is it you find a scenario highly unlikely in one direction but not the other?

Try to look at it from a different angle: suppose John had been JBs chronic abuser, but was in no way involved in the rage attack on JB, which was done by Patsy. In that case it might have been John who actually suggested to Patsy that they stage a bizarre sexual predator scene, so that the police should think "no parent could have done this", and he could hope the coroner would (mis)interpret the chronic signs of sexual abuse on JB's body as being caused by the sexual predator too.

But I'm not convinced that John was JB's chronic abuser. I believe they tried to stage it as a bizarre sex crime, but could not bring themselves to inflict more than the small vaginal wound. They could not bring themselves to pose the body either. Instead they dressed JB in underwear and longjohns and covered her with a blanket.
They did leave the garrote contraption on though, since they needed a least to leave an element of 'bizarreness' in the staged scene. And it is exactly this garrote contraption which to this day leads many people to believe the Ramseys could not have done this. Lou Smit was hoodwinked by it too.

 

[Ames]

[/b]

Hi Sister,

I don't think she was in a state of mind to do all this. That is why we have a three page ransom note, that is why there are no fingerprints on the flashlight at all or on the batteries - it is fairly horrendous to defile your child like this. But I think she believed JONBenet was dead and there was no use her going to jail - they had Burke to think of. At least I think she said that to John. Steve Thomas does not believe that John aided but I think he did. Just the fact that he let all those people come to the house tells me he knew something more than he was saying. The fact that a threat to kill your child if you call anyone is COMPLETELY IGNORED, COMPLETELY AND THE fact that the ransom money is collected but never picked up, tells me John knew more. Actually, I am surprised at Steve Thomas that he lets him off in his theory.

I think Patsy may very well have gotten the tape which by the way is used in pageants - it was a certain kind of tape that is used in pageants and other things, but also in pageants for taping costumes. I think she also collected the rope. I think John may have taken over at that point and that is how his sweater fibers are found in JB's crotch.

They also locked the door to where JonBenet was hidden. This is a mistake that they later defend by saying "I can see a very evil man locking the door behind him to throw us off". It was a mistake, they did not mean to do that.

I am sure there is more, but that is all I can think of. Anyone else care to add on some mistakes that were made by the Ramseys.

Yep, I posted this part of John's interview on FFJ. I NEVER had known, before...that the door had been latched...and he had to reach up to unlatch it, to open it. My question was why in the world would an intruder latch the door? I have a question....that I should know the answer to, but I don't. I know that there was a window...the one that John claimed to have broken in the summer, in the train room....BUT...was there a window IN THE ROOM where JB was found. Is that the one that Lou bent up like a pretzel, and climbed through?? I just cannot remember. Because I remember John, in his interview...said that the window that he broke, was the ONLY access to the basement. And I couldn't imagine a wine cellar having a window...even a small one.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree - how could a father stage a sex crime on his own daughter?
Similarly, I have a hard time believing that any mother, including Patsy, could do to her child what was done to JonBenet. I don't get the impression that Patsy was an evil, cruel person. If she did aciidentally harm JonBenet, how could she be in a state of mind to plan all the staging?

sister,
The people who believe Patsy did it, have no answers to these questions, rage is the mantra cited, along with no accompanying evidence.

I agree - how could a father stage a sex crime on his own daughter?

Or cover one up, remember JonBenet was wiped down and redressed in size-12 underwear, and wrapped in blankets, thus hiding her sexual injuries from view.

Also JonBenet's injuries do not fall into the accidental, or non-intenional category, her head injury which split her skull open is similar in severity to that following a serious vehicle crash, the abrasions on her neck both arise from manual and ligature asphyxiation, and her sexual injury was applied when she was still alive, causing a loss of blood. Coroner Meyer also concluded she had been involved in sexual activity prior to death, and that her enlarged hymen indicated long-term chronic sexual abuse.

So it appears JonBenet was killed after some form of sexual activity?

p.s.
On the head injury, as a contrast, mothers accidentally drop their babies and cause head injuries, children fall of swings, toddlers fall down stairs, or off beds after bouncing on them, but in 99% of these case the babies and children do not split their skull open in the manner JonBenet's was fractured.


.

 

[Solace]

Yep, I posted this part of John's interview on FFJ. I NEVER had known, before...that the door had been latched...and he had to reach up to unlatch it, to open it. My question was why in the world would an intruder latch the door? I have a question....that I should know the answer to, but I don't. I know that there was a window...the one that John claimed to have broken in the summer, in the train room....BUT...was there a window IN THE ROOM where JB was found. Is that the one that Lou bent up like a pretzel, and climbed through?? I just cannot remember. Because I remember John, in his interview...said that the window that he broke, was the ONLY access to the basement. And I couldn't imagine a wine cellar having a window...even a small one.

I think that the room that JonBenet was found in had no windows - I always thought there were at least three different rooms down in the basement - the room where she was found (John described it as a nasty room, very dank and dark) the train room where Burke played his trains and I thought there was another room with the window) AND I COULD BE WRONG SO PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM.

 

[rashomon]

If an outsider had killed JonBenet, I think Patsy would have been Beth Twitty X 10. Elizabeth Smart's dad X 20. She would have had Chief Koby in a choke hold ten minutes after the police were called. We saw none of that. Every time I saw Patsy she always looked like the defendent at a trial and John looked like her confident, smooth attorney.

When I see how Patsy grieved, the only conclusion I can draw is that she was the one who caused her separation from JonBenet.

Absolutely. I've said the same thing. She'd have steamrolled BPD and demanded answers relentlessly if this had been the work of an intruder. They'd have had the fiercest mother they'd ever seen in their faces on a regular basis if some stranger had broke in and killed her baby girl.

I totally agree, NP. Excellent points, Albert!
Had an outsider killed JonBenet, that is what Patsy would have done (instead of telling the TV audience TV that she was not angry at the killer of her daughter).
Very astute observation re Patsy looking like the defendant and John like her slick attorney - I think you hit it dead center here!

 

[Solace]

sister,
The people who believe Patsy did it, have no answers to these questions, rage is the mantra cited, along with no accompanying evidence.


Or cover one up, remember JonBenet was wiped down and redressed in size-12 underwear, and wrapped in blankets, thus hiding her sexual injuries from view.

Also JonBenet's injuries do not fall into the accidental, or non-intenional category, her head injury which split her skull open is similar in severity to that following a serious vehicle crash (give me a 45 pound child and if I wanted to, I could do the same thing to her - this theory that it would take a very very strong man is bull$h#* at the very least- Look at JonBenet's hands in the autopsy pictures, she is TINY and I could definitely do it. - that theory does not wash with those of us who are aware that it is a theory with nothing to back it up), the abrasions on her neck both arise from manual and ligature asphyxiation, and her sexual injury was applied when she was still alive, causing a loss of blood. (Correct, so that no one would believe a parent could do this and that is exactly what some on the grand jury said, no parent could do this, it worked) Coroner Meyer also concluded she had been involved in sexual activity prior to death, and that her enlarged hymen indicated long-term chronic sexual abuse. If he concluded it, he did not write it down, so that tells me he knows that that theory will not work in a court of law, because it is not factually based. And lets be fair, there are a number of doctors who do not believe it.

So it appears JonBenet was killed after some form of sexual activity? Only in your mind UK, only in your mind.

p.s.
On the head injury, as a contrast, mothers accidentally drop their babies and cause head injuries, children fall of swings, toddlers fall down stairs, or off beds after bouncing on them, but in 99% of these case the babies and children do not split their skull open in the manner JonBenet's was fractured. They do if they are 45 pounds and are slammed with great force against a cold hard tiled bathtub. They do if the person swinging and throwing them around is in such a rage that she leaves her thumbprint on her child's neck and is also strangling her as she goes, so that JonBenet does not have much control over her own body and when she is being thrown like a ragdoll, she pretty much acts like a ragdoll and breaks.


.

Can't help it.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't believe there was a final blow, but that the head blow came first.
And that all the actions of staging which followed were meant to direct attention away from the head blow (delivered by an enraged parent) being at the origin.





I see John's role mostly as that of a bystander, who helped somewhat with the staging. I think John is a very calculating person who quickly let this run through in his mind: the damage was already done, nothing would bring JB back and in view of the public scandal this would cause should Patsy be publicly exposed as the killer of their daughter, agreed that they stage a scene since this was their ONLY chance to get away with it.



But if police and public had swallowed the Ramseys' concocted story, their image would not have been ruined at all, so John could not know beforehand if their story would be bought or not.


Try to look at it from a different angle: suppose John had been JBs chronic abuser, but was in no way involved in the rage attack on JB, which was done by Patsy. In that case it might have been John who actually suggested to Patsy that they stage a bizarre sexual predator scene, so that the police should think "no parent could have done this", and he could hope the coroner would (mis)interpret the chronic signs of sexual abuse on JB's body as being caused by the sexual predator too.

But I'm not convinced that John was JB's chronic abuser. I believe they tried to stage it as a bizarre sex crime, but could not bring themselves to inflict more than the small vaginal wound. They could not bring themselves to pose the body either. Instead they dressed JB in underwear and longjohns and covered her with a blanket.
They did leave the garrote contraption on though, since they needed a least to leave an element of 'bizarreness' in the staged scene. And it is exactly this garrote contraption which to this day leads many people to believe the Ramseys could not have done this. Lou Smit was hoodwinked by it too.

I don't believe there was a final blow, but that the head blow came first.
And that all the actions of staging which followed were meant to direct attention away from the head blow (delivered by an enraged parent) being at the origin.

But there is no head blow to direct attention from, it was not discovered until the internal autopsy. The head blow may have come last, Coroner Meyer does not cite it as the major causal factor in the death of JonBenet, asphyxiation is accorded that relevance.

But if police and public had swallowed the Ramseys' concocted story, their image would not have been ruined at all, so John could not know beforehand if their story would be bought or not.

JR knew because there was no intruder that with a corpse in the basement his reputation would take a hit regardless of what the law enforcement thought, he knew the press would run the daughter dead count.

Try to look at it from a different angle: suppose John had been JBs chronic abuser, but was in no way involved in the rage attack on JB, which was done by Patsy. In that case it might have been John who actually suggested to Patsy that they stage a bizarre sexual predator scene, so that the police should think "no parent could have done this", and he could hope the coroner would (mis)interpret the chronic signs of sexual abuse on JB's body as being caused by the sexual predator too.

Possibly and more in hope than fact since at the most any staging would obscure and confuse the evidence, we also know from the search warrants that the police did think John may have been involved sexually with JonBenet that was their rationale for seaching for child .

But I'm not convinced that John was JB's chronic abuser. I believe they tried to stage it as a bizarre sex crime, but could not bring themselves to inflict more than the small vaginal wound. They could not bring themselves to pose the body either. Instead they dressed JB in underwear and longjohns and covered her with a blanket.
They did leave the garrote contraption on though, since they needed a least to leave an element of 'bizarreness' in the staged scene. And it is exactly this garrote contraption which to this day leads many people to believe the Ramseys could not have done this. Lou Smit was hoodwinked by it too.

No way was Lou Smit hoodwinked, he knew what he was dealing with and when he took his evidence with him, he knew his pension was safe. So who do you reckon was sexually molesting JonBenet?

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Image was particularly important to Machiavelli who advised his Princes to dress soberly, attend church, profess christian values and be seen in public with the right people.

Politicians such as Blair and Bush have put these principles into action and when it comes to killing they have adopted another of Machiavelli's nostrums which is to simply wipe out your opponent, since dead people cannot retaliate.

Now John Ramsey as a business man can be seen to also adopt some of these ploys, but he must have realized, he would have no image left to defend once JonBenet's corpse was discovered strangled and sexually assaulted in his own basement. His then curtailed career path is a testament to this, and his subsequent sideline in generating revenue based on events relating to the death of JonBenet, e.g. J.M. Karr, demonstrates he values capital over image.

JonBenet's death and her corpse were a faite accompli, JR has nothing left to defend!


.

Isn't that all the more reason to think HE didn't kill her,Patsy did???

 

[rashomon]

I think that the room that JonBenet was found in had no windows - I always thought there were at least three different rooms down in the basement - the room where she was found (John described it as a nasty room, very dank and dark) the train room where Burke played his trains and I thought there was another room with the window) AND I COULD BE WRONG SO PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM.

Solace, the room in which JB was found had no windows. It was dark, dank and dirty. If you look at the floor plan in PMPT, you can see that the other room (so-called hobby room or train room) is the one where the window was. The window was in the storage area of the train room.

 

[Solace]

Had there been time for Agt Walker to have heard that the body was found in the wine cellar? Yes, since he walked by the body as he went downstairs and he saw Patsy asking Lazarus to raise her.

Another good point from this page, JR might think, "Hey, if we stage this with a sexual component, people may think it was me."

And another, didn't we discuss that PW had a jacket PR admired so she bought one just like it? Those fibers could even be PW's, a defense attorney for PR might argue. Maybe even from a previous visit, no-telling how long ago. It was similar not exactly. Patsy said she did not want a replica. So she believes she went to Marshalls instead of the place her friend bought hers.

See also a link I'll have to come back and edit in about the pubic hair, not matching anyone in the family, (after a bit about warrants) that someone named Mueller said was the one thing preventing solving the case. He said a defense attorney could do a lot with that hair. And that the white blanket could have been loaned to someone earlier. (Wasn't the piece of duct tape a previously-used one? Why? ) Needless to say, a defense attorney could easily argue that the family weren't, as they themselves claimed, the only ones in the house. That seems so obvious.

Wasn't the barbie nightgown stuck to the blanket, static cling, and if so, would the DNA have been destroyed by laundering? Evidently they didn't get any. Would it have been still sticking to the blanket at all after laundering or would it have disintegrated and/or gone into the lint trap? Of course, hair clings pretty well. Evidently they didn't always use a drier sheet. What are you talking about?

Here's that link.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/...ey/1005jon.htm

Eagle: The link is either outdated, inaccurate or may be in the process of being updated.

 

[UKGuy]

Isn't that all the more reason to think HE didn't kill her,Patsy did???

Thats why it is a faite accompli, and reputation cannot be a motive. e.g. with JonBenet dead, his reputation will dip somewhat.

 

[Solace]

Solace, the room in which JB was found had no windows. It was dark, dank and dirty. If you look at the floor plan in PMPT, you can see that the other room (so-called hobby room or train room) is the one where the window was. The window was in the storage area of the train room.

Thank you Rash.

 

[Solace]

Thats why it is a faite accompli, and reputation cannot be a motive. e.g. with JonBenet dead, his reputation will dip somewhat.

There is always the possibility that he loved Patsy and he loves Burke and he feels he has lost enough and it will serve no purpose for Patsy to go to jail, it was an accident in his mind and surely Patsy is out of her mind that night. She was shaking JB so hard she left bruising.

We are dealing with human beings here you know. Not robots.

 

[JMO8778]

This is a very, very good point. Would a man stage a sex crime? Would a dad stage a sex crime on his own daughter?

Isn't the purpose of staging to direct the focus of the crime away from yourself. For a mother, a sex crime staging would be perfect, but it could be a disaster for the dad.

I have no doubt that,according to the RN,they had planned to get her out of the house('you will also be denied her remains for proper buriel').SO it was staged to look like a sexual assault, so as to appear a sexual preditor abducted and killed her.
Why they didn't follow thru with that plan is anybody's guess.Maybe the biggest reason is they,being the parents,couldn't go thru with it.And /or they simply ran out of time under cover of darkness,and couldn't risk being seen.Along with fear of leaving evidence behind...tire tracks,shoe prints,etc.

BUT THIS is a huge reason I believe JR wanted to get his arse out of town ASAP.He KNEW the sexual assault would be found,he KNEW he would be under scrutiny and suspect for it and at risk for getting arrested and charged for it..maybe all of it.And that leads to sending Pammy into the house under the guise of getting funeral clothes,ie-PASSPORTS,and mementos they didn't want to leave behind.

 

[Solace]

I have no doubt that,according to the RN,they had planned to get her out of the house('you will also be denied her remains for proper buriel').SO,it was staged to look like a sexual assault so as to appear a sexual preditor abducted and killed her.
Why they didn't follow thru with that plan,is anybody's guess.Maybe the biggest reason is they,being the parents,couldn't go thru with it.And /or they simply ran out of time under cover of darkness,and couldn't risk being seen.Along with fear of leaving evidence behind...tire tracks,shoe prints,etc.

BUT THIS is a huge reason I believe JR wanted to get his arse out of town ASAP.He KNEW the sexual assault would be found,he KNEW he would be under scrutiny and suspect for it and at risk for getting arrested and charged for it..maybe all of it.And that leads to sending Pammy into the house under the guise of getting funeral clothes,ie-PASSPORTS,and mementos they didn't want to leave behind.

Lets say they did intend to leave first and take JonBenet and they changed their mind for whatever reason (probably because it would have been much too dangeous - they would have been seen by someone). If anyone would be thinking that way, it would have been Patsy since she wrote the note, but possibly it was negated by John who realized how absurd that would be.

But lets say that is true, just the fact that they leave the ransom note to read that way,tells me they are out of it - that no one is dealing with a full deck that night in that house. Insanity rules. And when they do put her in that back room, John is able to collect himself and deal with the police - at least he has a course of action and he has called everyone he knows to help him and keep him from the police's clutches even in his own house.

Just thinking about it gives me the willies, Burke said he heard creaking and noises. What he heard was John and Patsy walking around and talking - can you picture how insane it was.

 

[JMO8778]

Or cover one up, remember JonBenet was wiped down and redressed in size-12 underwear, and wrapped in blankets, thus hiding her sexual injuries from view.

.

I think that was done b/c they abandoned the plan to get her out of the house...so,in order to give at least JR a chance to high tail it out of town,the staged sexual assault was hidden.They knew it would be found upon autopsy,and hoped it could still be considered,along with the garrotte staging,to not be done by a parent.

 

[JMO8778]

I totally agree, NP. Excellent points, Albert!
Had an outsider killed JonBenet, that is what Patsy would have done (instead of telling the TV audience TV that she was not angry at the killer of her daughter).
Very astute observation re Patsy looking like the defendant and John like her slick attorney - I think you hit it dead center here!

He certainly seemed to manage it all,didn't he.From the phone calls to the Gov.,to hiring the attorneys,going on CNN and being seen at church,he played the role of orchestrating these staged events.Which makes me think even more that he took over with the staging of JB's body.