Forensic evidence

[Solace]

Good point, Solace. I believe that Hunter believed RDI, either way. They were so lucky that he was able to be bought as easily as he was. He behaved like he knew one of them did it and he needed to shelter them from the get-go, imo. JR hiring Hal Haddon, whom Hunter had been buddies with since way back when, was a brilliant move.

Yes they were nice and insulated. Any way one looks at this case, it is out there in bizarro land. What about the picture a year later of John and Patsy and Burke and Burke is still small walking with Jay (from Pasta Jays) and they are all laughing - some a smiling and some are laughing.

Maybe it is just me, but if my daughter were bludgeoned and then sexually assaulted and then defiled, it would take me a little more than a year to smile again. And I know, not everyone reacts the same way and it is possible. Not with me it isn't. What about Marc Klass, for years he looked like he was out of his mind - seriously he did. In the past two years or so, he has mellowed and does not look like he has just seen Satan himself, his eyes are not darting around anymore. That is what I am talking about. John and Patsy Ramsy are bizarre. Just bizarre - and I don't think this murder was intentional - I think it happened but was not supposed to. But if someone is able to use that amount of violence on their child, then I could expect them to be smiling a year later. It is possible.

 

[Albert18]

JR hiring Hal Haddon, whom Hunter had been buddies with since way back when, was a brilliant move.

Yesssss!

Somebody else who sees what John did as being brilliant. I wonder if that plan of action didn't come out of his discussions with Bynum. I doubt John would have known the connections within the Colorado legal community.

 

[Solace]

John didn't scream though did he? I thought it was just FW that did.Or at least he was doing most of it.FW was genuinely in shock,no doubt.

This is really important - can anyone find out if John screamed when he came up carrying her or if it was just Fleet White who screamed for an ambulance. I know John contradicts himself in his interrogation (if we can call it that) he first says Fleet did not scream and he found that strange and then he says something to the effect "through all of Fleet's screaming". So we know he lies again, but did John scream?

AMES WE NEED YOU.

 

[Solace]

Yesssss!

Somebody else who sees what John did as being brilliant. I wonder if that plan of action didn't come out of his discussions with Bynum. I doubt John would have known the connections within the Colorado legal community.

I don't know I just think brilliant is more along the lines of discovering a cure for AIDS. Hiring a lawyer who is friends with Alex Hunter could have been a suggestion of a number of people insulating John at that time. I can't give him that much credit. Nothing these people did was brilliant.

 

[Ames]

This is really important - can anyone find out if John screamed when he came up carrying her or if it was just Fleet White who screamed for an ambulance. I know John contradicts himself in his interrogation (if we can call it that) he first says Fleet did not scream and he found that strange and then he says something to the effect "through all of Fleet's screaming". So we know he lies again, but did John scream?

AMES WE NEED YOU.

LOL...I'm HERE!! I'm HERE!!! John says that HE screamed as he was carrying JB up the stairs. BUT, the only thing that I can find on that, is when he yelled..."I FOUND HER". I haven't found anywhere....except for John's own words...saying that he SCREAMED. When I think of scream..I think of "AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"...you know, like a woman would do when she finds out her child is missing, or watching a scary movie. I will see what else I can did up....and I will post that part of the interview that says that Fleet DID NOT scream or say anything, and that he found it odd.

I found one of the portions of the interview that you were talking about....FLEET NOT screaming...or calling out for help..

ST: OK. And then moved to your daughter. Did Fleet accompany you into that room?
JR: I don’t remember him being there. But I just, I mean I don’t, I remember later thinking I didn’t hear Fleet scream out or call for help or say anything at all, and that frankly seemed odd, but I might have just been out of my mind, I don’t know. I don’t remember, I don’t remember him, I mean once I went to that door from, and when I took those stairs, I don’t remember where Fleet was.

Okay, in the above statement....(this is from the 1997 interview posted on ACR)...he doesn't hear Fleet scream...OR call for help...and he thought it was odd. (Frankly, I believe he is implying that Fleet didn't scream, because he was the killer, and KNEW JB was down there...so he wasn't shocked)


But HERE...he says something different...same interview...

TT: John, again I’m not sure if I got the sequence right. You talked about you screamed out also, and Patsy talked about that too. Does that mean when you first went in through the door.

JR: No, this was when I was carrying her upstairs, as I came out of the door, I just remember him screaming.
TT: Did he say anything or was he just . . .
JR: No, he was just screaming for attention, I guess. As I was . . .ST: And at that point, and certainly I can understand this, you don’t know necessarily where Fleet was positioned. Do you recall coming out of the room and seeing Fleet at all?

HE was just screaming for attenion, as John was what??? The interviewer didn't let him finish. Probably as John was bringing JB up the stairs, or something. Did John hear Fleet scream, or did he not?? (Remember...it was Fleet that yelled to call an ambulance.)

 

[JMO8778]

In DOI,pprback,p.22,JR says this about what he did upon finding JB:

From somewhere far inside of me,a scream erupts.That's all I can do.
I scream like I'm in a nightmare but my body is still asleep;I'm deathly afraid.
____
Not a word about what FW does or says.

 

[Ames]

In DOI,pprback,p.22,JR says this about what he did upon finding JB:

From somewhere far inside of me,a scream erupts.That's all I can do.
I scream like I'm in a nightmare but my body is still asleep;I'm deathly afraid.
____
Not a word about what FW does or says.

That's not what he says in his interview...this is weird...he must have meant that he remember himself screaming. Maybe this was transcribed wrong. I can't find anything in any of John's interviews that mentions HIM (John) screaming.....
[FONT='Courier New', monospace]TT: John, again I’m not sure if I got the sequence right. You talked about you screamed out also, and Patsy talked about that too. Does that mean when you first went in through the door.[/FONT]
[FONT='Courier New', monospace]JR: No, this was when I was carrying her upstairs, as I came out of the door, I just remember him screaming.[/FONT]
[FONT='Courier New', monospace][/FONT]

 

[DeeDee249]

Remember DOI was basically a work of fiction- at the very least it was "based on" (to use a familiar term) the experiences of the R family that day. JR describing himself screaming in that book, written so long after the murder and almost certainly with legal advice, doesn't mean that's the way it happened.
LA says in her depositions that JR never screamed or cried or anything- she just says that she watched in disbelief as she saw JR carring a clearly-dead JBR up from the basement stairs around the waist like a large doll. He had no tears, he said nothing. After he placed her on the floyer floor, he began to moan. It was LA who admitted to moving the body to the living room under the tree (to get it away from a high-traffic area, she said).

 

[JMO8778]

Right,that whole book is just full of downright lies.I was just curious as to what the interviews say as opposed to what he says in the book.That book sure was written in their best interest.

 

[Solace]

Remember DOI was basically a work of fiction- at the very least it was "based on" (to use a familiar term) the experiences of the R family that day. JR describing himself screaming in that book, written so long after the murder and almost certainly with legal advice, doesn't mean that's the way it happened.
LA says in her depositions that JR never screamed or cried or anything- she just says that she watched in disbelief as she saw JR carring a clearly-dead JBR up from the basement stairs around the waist like a large doll. He had no tears, he said nothing. After he placed her on the floyer floor, he began to moan. It was LA who admitted to moving the body to the living room under the tree (to get it away from a high-traffic area, she said).

Dee Dee,

This is very important that LA says he did not scream. BECAUSE, when Patsy is describing the circumstances surrounding her actions when she found the note, she says "I screamed for John and he screamed when he came up from the basement".

I believe she is telling us the truth there and made a mistake and that John was actually in the basement - but someone else might take it to mean that John screamed the same scream as when he found JB in the basement - But if you are saying he did not scream, then she is truly remembering John screaming to her from the basement the night or early morning of the murder. Can provide any more info on this? Thanks.

 

[JMO8778]

Dee Dee,

This is very important that LA says he did not scream. BECAUSE, when Patsy is describing the circumstances surrounding her actions when she found the note, she says "I screamed for John and he screamed when he came up from the basement".

that alone differentiates the two,IMO.She didn't scream for John when he came up from the basement with her body,from all accounts I've read.

 

[Solace]

In DOI,pprback,p.22,JR says this about what he did upon finding JB:

From somewhere far inside of me,a scream erupts.That's all I can do.
I scream like I'm in a nightmare but my body is still asleep;I'm deathly afraid.
____
Not a word about what FW does or says.

He is so full of it. Somewhere deep inside me. You would think he was describing his saving his daughter from a great white. John, I would think the scream would be right there out front if you just found your dead daughter. They are just so guilty.

 

[Solace]

that alone differentiates the two,IMO.She didn't scream for John when he came up from the basement with her body,from all accounts I've read.

JMO, Patsy is describing for Detective Haney when she first found the note and she says "I screamed for John and John screamed when he came up from the basement".

I wanted to find out if John had screamed out when he found JB's body. Because, I feel that Patsy is really describing the truth and John did call her name when he came up from the basement at some point that night when JB was murdered.

Understand? I think when Patsy is describing the note, that she is actually telling the truth at some point saying John screamed when he came up from the basement.

I just think she is describing the truth.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO, Patsy is describing for Detective Haney when she first found the note and she says "I screamed for John and John screamed when he came up from the basement".

I wanted to find out if John had screamed out when he found JB's body. Because, I feel that Patsy is really describing the truth and John did call her name when he came up from the basement at some point that night when JB was murdered.

Understand? I think when Patsy is describing the note, that she is actually telling the truth at some point saying John screamed when he came up from the basement.

I just think she is describing the truth.

I guess I didn't write that correctly,b/c I was agreeing with you,totally.I agree,she's telling the truth when she's talking to Haney,and it can't be the other way anyway,b/c she didn't scream for John when he brought JB up from the basement at 1pm when he 'found' her,from all accounts I've read.

 

[JMO8778]

He is so full of it. Somewhere deep inside me. You would think he was describing his saving his daughter from a great white. John, I would think the scream would be right there out front if you just found your dead daughter. They are just so guilty.

totally!

 

[Solace]

I guess I didn't write that correctly,b/c I was agreeing with you,totally.I agree,she's telling the truth when she's talking to Haney,and it can't be the other way anyway,b/c she didn't scream for John when he brought JB up from the basement at 1pm when he 'found' her,from all accounts I've read.

I see.

 

[Ames]

Remember DOI was basically a work of fiction- at the very least it was "based on" (to use a familiar term) the experiences of the R family that day. JR describing himself screaming in that book, written so long after the murder and almost certainly with legal advice, doesn't mean that's the way it happened.
LA says in her depositions that JR never screamed or cried or anything- she just says that she watched in disbelief as she saw JR carring a clearly-dead JBR up from the basement stairs around the waist like a large doll. He had no tears, he said nothing. After he placed her on the floyer floor, he began to moan. It was LA who admitted to moving the body to the living room under the tree (to get it away from a high-traffic area, she said).

You are right...I had never heard anyone else, BUT JOHN...say that he screamed...oh, and maybe Patsy said it. Now HOW many people were in the house??? Enough to have heard John scream....IF he did. He ALSO said in his interview...and I will post it if needed....(the one in 1997)..that he picked her up UNDER HER ARMS...thats completely different than around the waist or legs. (I read where Linda said that John was carrying her with his arms around the TOPS of her legs (below the waist). Yeah, and after he started to moan, after placing her on the foyer floor...he looked around to make sure that EVERYONE in the room was looking at him. Just as Patsy did, when she pretended to cry, and was looking at one of the investigators, through splayed fingers. Here are the reasons that she could have possibly been looking through splayed fingers....

A.) She thought that she was at a scary movie...
B.) She was looking to see if the investigator was checking her out.
C.) She thought the investigator was HOT, and she was checking HIM out, but didn't want him to know.
D.) She wanted to check to make sure that the investigator was buying her little act.

My vote for letter D!!

 

[DeeDee249]

Dee Dee,

This is very important that LA says he did not scream. BECAUSE, when Patsy is describing the circumstances surrounding her actions when she found the note, she says "I screamed for John and he screamed when he came up from the basement".

I believe she is telling us the truth there and made a mistake and that John was actually in the basement - but someone else might take it to mean that John screamed the same scream as when he found JB in the basement - But if you are saying he did not scream, then she is truly remembering John screaming to her from the basement the night or early morning of the murder. Can provide any more info on this? Thanks.

I read this account in several of the books, but the first time I read it was on acandyrose, and it was LA's depositions there and also the accompanying text I believe in the Crime Scene section at acandyrose. LA specifically mentions hearing nothing from the basement, only seeing JR carrying a stiff and clearly dead JBR in a upright position held away from his body. Even FW didn't scream. LA heard FW on his cell phone. THEN he said to call 911. According to several sources, PR was in a back room with her "posse". She knew that her daughter had been found. She heard someone say to call 911. She stayed in her seat UNTIL after LA had moved the body under the Christmas Tree. THEN she cried out (not really a scream) and threw herself on the body. An interesting point is that if she did NOT KNOW that it was a BODY that was found and not JBR alive (even if injured) why would she stay back there? If that was the mother of a TRULY kidnapped child and she heard someone say "we've found her, call 911" you'd go flying into that room, yelling for your baby. Wild horses couldn't keep you in that back room. Yet, she stayed there. Because she KNEW her daughter was already dead, and was dreading the moment when she'd have to look at that corpse in front of everyone there. She covered herself really well- screaming for Jesus to raise the child, throwing herself on the body- pure theater, and it WORKED. She did not have to show any other emotion, this display took care of it. If PR remembers herself and JR screaming, it was the scream of two parents faced with the horror of a dead 6-year old that needed to be explained away.

 

[coloradokares]

You are right...I had never heard anyone else, BUT JOHN...say that he screamed...oh, and maybe Patsy said it. Now HOW many people were in the house??? Enough to have heard John scream....IF he did. He ALSO said in his interview...and I will post it if needed....(the one in 1997)..that he picked her up UNDER HER ARMS...thats completely different than around the waist or legs. (I read where Linda said that John was carrying her with his arms around the TOPS of her legs (below the waist). Yeah, and after he started to moan, after placing her on the foyer floor...he looked around to make sure that EVERYONE in the room was looking at him. Just as Patsy did, when she pretended to cry, and was looking at one of the investigators, through splayed fingers. Here are the reasons that she could have possibly been looking through splayed fingers....

A.) She thought that she was at a scary movie...
B.) She was looking to see if the investigator was checking her out.
C.) She thought the investigator was HOT, and she was checking HIM out, but didn't want him to know.
D.) She wanted to check to make sure that the investigator was buying her little act.

My vote for letter C.

D ? I think she was too onto saving her own skin to care if the investigator was hot...then again I did not see the investigator:crazy:

 

[JMO8778]

I think she was just appalled when LE returned from the basement without a peep about finding JB.She must have thought they were going to play her a bit,to see if she knew the body was there.