I'm afraid you lost me, voynich. Excellent. You explain it so a five-year-old could understand it. (And I mean that as a compliment!)
I'm afraid I can't be much help there.
Forensic linguist & Jonbenet Ransom study group
- Thread starter voynich
- Start date
I'm afraid you lost me, voynich. Excellent. You explain it so a five-year-old could understand it. (And I mean that as a compliment!)
I'm afraid I can't be much help there.
Holdontoyourhat
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- Mar 28, 2005
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I'll get back to you on this.
Now you're getting the idea!
Has Gideon Epstein evaluated the claims of other handwriting experts, as well as claims of others "who could not be eliminated" and has his own claims been evaluated by other handwriting experts?
What about the issue of making a match w/disguised writing, for example as HOTH pointed out, some block-type lettering.
What about the issue of making a match w/disguised writing, for example as HOTH pointed out, some block-type lettering.
I don`t see the importance of the R`s using phrases that are present in the RN unless those phrases are rare. Is there some way to find this out? Are there statistics on the use of those phrases as there are on the most common words in English, for which Tadpole provided a link.
Voynich wrote: What are the distinctive handwritten markers shared by PR that are also present in the RN, and what % of the population in Colorado would have similar markers?
Perhaps F.B.I. could be a distinctive marker, at least. What other distinctive markers might there be that Patsy and the writer of the RN share?
About the problem of considering disguise, Mr. McMenamin wrote in his study:
"With respect to the possibility of attempted disguise, manipulation of
the nonrequest, precrime samples in the known Ramsey reference writings
was not possible. Additionally, most variables identified in the Ramseys
request writings, in writings used here to exclude the Ramseys as writers of
the ransom letter and in those not used (e.g., dictated word lists), contain
such a patterned level of consistency that the conscious manipulation of even
the most carefully executed request writings is highly improbable, given the
circumstances of their production."
Feel free to argue that.
Voynich wrote: What are the distinctive handwritten markers shared by PR that are also present in the RN, and what % of the population in Colorado would have similar markers?
Perhaps F.B.I. could be a distinctive marker, at least. What other distinctive markers might there be that Patsy and the writer of the RN share?
About the problem of considering disguise, Mr. McMenamin wrote in his study:
"With respect to the possibility of attempted disguise, manipulation of
the nonrequest, precrime samples in the known Ramsey reference writings
was not possible. Additionally, most variables identified in the Ramseys
request writings, in writings used here to exclude the Ramseys as writers of
the ransom letter and in those not used (e.g., dictated word lists), contain
such a patterned level of consistency that the conscious manipulation of even
the most carefully executed request writings is highly improbable, given the
circumstances of their production."
Feel free to argue that.
Yes, he has evaluated the claims of other experts. He knows most of them quite well. (It's a SMALL field.) As for the claims of others, he has spoken on that as well. The only one who even came close was PR. As for his own claims being evaluated, I only know of one person who has evaluated him--Larry Ziegler, an ABFDE member and former handwriting analysis instructor for the FBI, and he agrees. Nobody else is too eager to challenge him.
I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific. Until then, one thing I can tell you is that Epstein primarily handled cases where people were living their whole LIVES in disguise--assumed names, phony histories, you name it. So it's probably safe to assume that he has a great deal of experience with matching disguised writing. Other than that, as I said, you'll have to be more specific.
AH! And that's partly the point I was trying to make. Some phrases are quite rare. The use of "and, hence," has been pointed out specifically in this regard. It's not used very often. Because it's a redundancy.
I guess you'd have to ask an expert.
Well, the note uses an overabundance of punctuation, specifically exclamation points. PR was known to do that. Same deal with the typescript "a"s, which she conspicuously stopped using afterwards. I'm sure I can think of a few more once I consult my notes.
Well, the only thing I can say is that the consistency seems based on their individual styles as separate entities. What if they were mixed together, is my point.
Hi Mysteeri.
yep. would def need better reference material that what is available on line, need a subscription or access to the Journal of Forensic, Linguistics
and McMenamins study which outlines his criteria. His methodogy can be duplicatated ... reproduced and reviewed.
yep. would def need better reference material that what is available on line, need a subscription or access to the Journal of Forensic, Linguistics
and McMenamins study which outlines his criteria. His methodogy can be duplicatated ... reproduced and reviewed.
rn Words per sentence / unit:
2 "Mr. Ramsey.
2 Listen carefully!
12 We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction.
12 We xx respect your bussiness but not the country that it serves.
10 At this time we have your daughter in our posession.
21 She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter.
7 You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account.
13 100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills.
12 Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank.
14 When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag.
15 I will call you between 8 and 10 am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery.
12 The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.
30 If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier
delivery pickup of your daughter.
14 Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter.
10 You will also be denied her remains for proper burial.
20 The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
18 Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded.
11 If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies.
7 If you alert bank authorities, she dies.
13 If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies.
14 You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she dies.
19 You can try to deceive us but be warned that we are familiar with Law enforcement countermeasures and tactics.
16 You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us.
13 Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back.
13 You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the authorities.
7 Don't try to grow a brain John.
16 You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult.
4 Don't underestimate us John.
8 Use that good southern common sense of yours.
7 It is up to you now John!
2 Victory! S.B.T.C."
2 "Mr. Ramsey.
2 Listen carefully!
12 We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction.
12 We xx respect your bussiness but not the country that it serves.
10 At this time we have your daughter in our posession.
21 She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter.
7 You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account.
13 100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills.
12 Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank.
14 When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag.
15 I will call you between 8 and 10 am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery.
12 The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.
30 If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier
delivery pickup of your daughter.
14 Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter.
10 You will also be denied her remains for proper burial.
20 The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
18 Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded.
11 If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies.
7 If you alert bank authorities, she dies.
13 If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies.
14 You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she dies.
19 You can try to deceive us but be warned that we are familiar with Law enforcement countermeasures and tactics.
16 You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us.
13 Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back.
13 You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the authorities.
7 Don't try to grow a brain John.
16 You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult.
4 Don't underestimate us John.
8 Use that good southern common sense of yours.
7 It is up to you now John!
2 Victory! S.B.T.C."
rn words per sentence, groupings:
2 "Mr. Ramsey.
2 Listen carefully!
2 Victory! S.B.T.C."
4 Don't underestimate us John.
7 You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account.
7 If you alert bank authorities, she dies.
7 Don't try to grow a brain John.
7 It is up to you now John!
8 Use that good southern common sense of yours.
10 At this time we have your daughter in our posession.
10 You will also be denied her remains for proper burial.
11 If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies.
12 We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction.
12 We xx respect your bussiness but not the country that it serves.
12 Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank.
12 The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.
13 100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills.
13 If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies.
13 Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back.
13 You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the authorities.
14 When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag.
14 Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter.
14 You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she dies.
15 I will call you between 8 and 10 am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery.
16 You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us.
16 You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult.
18 Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded.
19 You can try to deceive us but be warned that we are familiar with Law enforcement countermeasures and tactics.
20 The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
21 She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter.
30 If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier
delivery pickup of your daughter.
2 "Mr. Ramsey.
2 Listen carefully!
2 Victory! S.B.T.C."
4 Don't underestimate us John.
7 You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account.
7 If you alert bank authorities, she dies.
7 Don't try to grow a brain John.
7 It is up to you now John!
8 Use that good southern common sense of yours.
10 At this time we have your daughter in our posession.
10 You will also be denied her remains for proper burial.
11 If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies.
12 We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction.
12 We xx respect your bussiness but not the country that it serves.
12 Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank.
12 The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.
13 100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills.
13 If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies.
13 Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back.
13 You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the authorities.
14 When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag.
14 Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter.
14 You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she dies.
15 I will call you between 8 and 10 am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery.
16 You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us.
16 You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult.
18 Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded.
19 You can try to deceive us but be warned that we are familiar with Law enforcement countermeasures and tactics.
20 The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
21 She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter.
30 If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier
delivery pickup of your daughter.
Hi voynich.
Spreadsheet.
double check my tallies, for me, please.
just eyebalin' it, voynich ... do ya get a feel, a rythm, for what 'average" sentence length would be?
I was feelin' 12ish.
wondering about sentence length, related to pentambic meter?
observation, mode: 7, 12, 13, 14
31 rn text 31 sentences (including greetings and salutation, 2, 2, 2)
Ascending order:
2,2,2,7,7,7,7,10,10,11,12,12,12,12,13,13,13,13,14,14,14,14,15,16,16,18,18,19,20,21,30
Results
Total Numbers: 31
Mean (Average): 12.70968
Median: 13
Mode: 7, 12, 13, 14
Spreadsheet.
double check my tallies, for me, please.
just eyebalin' it, voynich ... do ya get a feel, a rythm, for what 'average" sentence length would be?
I was feelin' 12ish.
wondering about sentence length, related to pentambic meter?
observation, mode: 7, 12, 13, 14
31 rn text 31 sentences (including greetings and salutation, 2, 2, 2)
Ascending order:
2,2,2,7,7,7,7,10,10,11,12,12,12,12,13,13,13,13,14,14,14,14,15,16,16,18,18,19,20,21,30
Results
Total Numbers: 31
Mean (Average): 12.70968
Median: 13
Mode: 7, 12, 13, 14
Hi SD.
re sentence length ... there is no duality within the grouping.
also, it's the distribution, which occupies the majority of the text,
7, 12, 13, 14
Total Numbers: 4
Mean (Average):11.5
Median: 12 + 13/2 = 12.5
Mode: 7, 12, 13, 14
Ascending order: 7, 12, 13, 14
re sentence length ... there is no duality within the grouping.
also, it's the distribution, which occupies the majority of the text,
7, 12, 13, 14
Total Numbers: 4
Mean (Average):11.5
Median: 12 + 13/2 = 12.5
Mode: 7, 12, 13, 14
Ascending order: 7, 12, 13, 14
It's Greek to me, Tadpole.
(Incidentally, I can't take full credit for the "ransomspeak" bit. I was inspired by Orwell.)
SuperDave wrote:
AH! And that's partly the point I was trying to make. Some phrases are quite rare. The use of "and, hence," has been pointed out specifically in this regard. It's not used very often. Because it's a redundancy.
I`ve heard about that. It`s probably because I`m paying attention now, but I`ve seen it sometimes. I do believe that it`s quite rare, though.
SuperDave wrote:
Well, the note uses an overabundance of punctuation, specifically exclamation points. PR was known to do that. Same deal with the typescript "a"s, which she conspicuously stopped using afterwards. I'm sure I can think of a few more once I consult my notes.
Alright, I believe at least that typescript "a" might be a distinctive marker (she didn`t always use them before Dec. 26 I believe). Someone should make statistics on the use of, say F.B.I. and typescript "a".
Superdave wrote:
Well, the only thing I can say is that the consistency seems based on their individual styles as separate entities. What if they were mixed together, is my point.
Yes. I don`recall what the study said about the consistency of stylistics in the RN and can`t access it right now. If the stylistics were consistent, that suggests one writer I believe. I don`t know if the dissimilarities in the RN and in both John and Patsys separate writings could be the result of mixed stylistics, if neither of them had certain markers, like "bussiness". One detail comes to mind though, pick-up was written with a hyphen in the RN, John wrote it as a single word (pickup) and Patsy with two words (pick up), there`s your mixture in the RN. :O...
AH! And that's partly the point I was trying to make. Some phrases are quite rare. The use of "and, hence," has been pointed out specifically in this regard. It's not used very often. Because it's a redundancy.
I`ve heard about that. It`s probably because I`m paying attention now, but I`ve seen it sometimes. I do believe that it`s quite rare, though.
SuperDave wrote:
Well, the note uses an overabundance of punctuation, specifically exclamation points. PR was known to do that. Same deal with the typescript "a"s, which she conspicuously stopped using afterwards. I'm sure I can think of a few more once I consult my notes.
Alright, I believe at least that typescript "a" might be a distinctive marker (she didn`t always use them before Dec. 26 I believe). Someone should make statistics on the use of, say F.B.I. and typescript "a".
Superdave wrote:
Well, the only thing I can say is that the consistency seems based on their individual styles as separate entities. What if they were mixed together, is my point.
Yes. I don`recall what the study said about the consistency of stylistics in the RN and can`t access it right now. If the stylistics were consistent, that suggests one writer I believe. I don`t know if the dissimilarities in the RN and in both John and Patsys separate writings could be the result of mixed stylistics, if neither of them had certain markers, like "bussiness". One detail comes to mind though, pick-up was written with a hyphen in the RN, John wrote it as a single word (pickup) and Patsy with two words (pick up), there`s your mixture in the RN. :O...
I've only seen it one other time, that I can remember.
She used them about half-and-half. And I think someone SHOULD try to classify those.
Superdave wrote:
Well, the only thing I can say is that the consistency seems based on their individual styles as separate entities. What if they were mixed together, is my point.
Yes. I don`recall what the study said about the consistency of stylistics in the RN and can`t access it right now. If the stylistics were consistent, that suggests one writer I believe. I don`t know if the dissimilarities in the RN and in both John and Patsys separate writings could be the result of mixed stylistics, if neither of them had certain markers, like "bussiness". One detail comes to mind though, pick-up was written with a hyphen in the RN, John wrote it as a single word (pickup) and Patsy with two words (pick up), there`s your mixture in the RN. :O...
You may be on to something.
If so powerful you are, why [not] read?
Because at this rate, you're doing it all for me!
Hi ya voynich
so I've been playing around with some numbers ...
thinking about words per sentence
I selected the distribution pattern ...31 rn text 31 sentences (including greetings and salutation, 2, 2, 2)
Ascending order:
2,2,2,7,7,7,7,10,10,11,12,12,12,12,13,13,13,13,14,14,14,14,15,16,16,18,18,19,20,21,30
Results
Total Numbers: 31
Mean (Average): 12.70968
Median: 13
Mode: 7, 12, 13, 14
I selected this distribution because of the multiples of expression, cued by the mode.
2,2,2,7,7,7,7,10,10,11,12,12,12,12,13,13,13,13,14,14,14,14,15,16,16,18,18,19,20,21,30
so if I redistribute the data, keeping in mind the mode 7, 12, 13,14, ; in this standard 4 point distribution the mean is 11.5 (could be a reflection of words per line)
7, 12, 13, 14
Total Numbers: 4
Mean (Average): 11.5
Median: 12 + 13/2 = 12.5
Mode: 7, 12, 13, 14
Ascending order: 7, 12, 13, 14
so I redistributed the data, as such
2,2,2,
7, 7, 7, 7,
12,12,12,12,
13,13,13,13,
14,14,14,14,
10,10,
11,
15,
16,16,
18,18,
19,
20,
21,
30
so within the general grouping there are 3 sub groups, two of which 'average' at , mean equal to 11.5
*
7, 7, 7, 7,
12,12,12,12,
13,13,13,13,
14,14,14,14,
**
2 10 16 18
2 10 16 18
***
remaining: [2] [11 15 19 20 21 30]
note that the first and second groupings the mean is 11.5
and the dispersion remaining serves to increase the mean, as the majority are of greater value than 11,5
7, 7, 7, 7,_________28
12,12,12,12, ______48 ..................184 ........184/4 = 46 ..........a = 46
13,13,13,13, ______52 ........................................................4a = 184
14,14,14,14,_______56
46
b = 92 b = 2a
2 10 16 18________ 46
2 10 16 18 ________46______________ 92
reference:
2,10,16,18
Total Numbers:4
Mean (Average): 11.5
Median: (10 + 16) /2 = 13
Mode: 2,10.16.18
Ascending Order: 2,10,16,18
A + b + C = 390 or (388 +/- 2)
184 'words' are expressed in the first grouping
92 in the second
so ... 276 words are expressed within a 'mean words per sentence' grouping equaling 11.5
so that is, the majority of the rn text is expressed in this pattern. average sentence length 11.5
24 of the 31 (or 30) sentences can be grouped as such.
so ... the groupings can be expressed as such:
A + b + c = 390 a = 46
or b = 92 , b = 2a
4a + 2a + c = 390
c = 390 - 184 - 92
6a + c = 390
c = 114
where the grouping c is comprised of the remaining numbers, (non coupled or repeated patterns)
remaining: [2] [11 15 19 20 21 30].
addition of these numbers increases the mean / or can adjust the mean from 11.5 to 12.70968
re: mean = 12.70968
Ascending order:
2,2,2,7,7,7,7,10,10,11,12,12,12,12,13,13,13,13,14,14,14,14,15,16,16,18,18,19,20,21,30
Results
Total Numbers: 31
Mean (Average): 12.70968
Median: 13
Mode: 7, 12, 13, 14
so I've been playing around with some numbers ...
thinking about words per sentence
I selected the distribution pattern ...31 rn text 31 sentences (including greetings and salutation, 2, 2, 2)
Ascending order:
2,2,2,7,7,7,7,10,10,11,12,12,12,12,13,13,13,13,14,14,14,14,15,16,16,18,18,19,20,21,30
Results
Total Numbers: 31
Mean (Average): 12.70968
Median: 13
Mode: 7, 12, 13, 14
I selected this distribution because of the multiples of expression, cued by the mode.
2,2,2,7,7,7,7,10,10,11,12,12,12,12,13,13,13,13,14,14,14,14,15,16,16,18,18,19,20,21,30
so if I redistribute the data, keeping in mind the mode 7, 12, 13,14, ; in this standard 4 point distribution the mean is 11.5 (could be a reflection of words per line)
7, 12, 13, 14
Total Numbers: 4
Mean (Average): 11.5
Median: 12 + 13/2 = 12.5
Mode: 7, 12, 13, 14
Ascending order: 7, 12, 13, 14
so I redistributed the data, as such
2,2,2,
7, 7, 7, 7,
12,12,12,12,
13,13,13,13,
14,14,14,14,
10,10,
11,
15,
16,16,
18,18,
19,
20,
21,
30
so within the general grouping there are 3 sub groups, two of which 'average' at , mean equal to 11.5
*
7, 7, 7, 7,
12,12,12,12,
13,13,13,13,
14,14,14,14,
**
2 10 16 18
2 10 16 18
***
remaining: [2] [11 15 19 20 21 30]
note that the first and second groupings the mean is 11.5
and the dispersion remaining serves to increase the mean, as the majority are of greater value than 11,5
7, 7, 7, 7,_________28
12,12,12,12, ______48 ..................184 ........184/4 = 46 ..........a = 46
13,13,13,13, ______52 ........................................................4a = 184
14,14,14,14,_______56
46
b = 92 b = 2a
2 10 16 18________ 46
2 10 16 18 ________46______________ 92
reference:
2,10,16,18
Total Numbers:4
Mean (Average): 11.5
Median: (10 + 16) /2 = 13
Mode: 2,10.16.18
Ascending Order: 2,10,16,18
A + b + C = 390 or (388 +/- 2)
184 'words' are expressed in the first grouping
92 in the second
so ... 276 words are expressed within a 'mean words per sentence' grouping equaling 11.5
so that is, the majority of the rn text is expressed in this pattern. average sentence length 11.5
24 of the 31 (or 30) sentences can be grouped as such.
so ... the groupings can be expressed as such:
A + b + c = 390 a = 46
or b = 92 , b = 2a
4a + 2a + c = 390
c = 390 - 184 - 92
6a + c = 390
c = 114
where the grouping c is comprised of the remaining numbers, (non coupled or repeated patterns)
remaining: [2] [11 15 19 20 21 30].
addition of these numbers increases the mean / or can adjust the mean from 11.5 to 12.70968
re: mean = 12.70968
Ascending order:
2,2,2,7,7,7,7,10,10,11,12,12,12,12,13,13,13,13,14,14,14,14,15,16,16,18,18,19,20,21,30
Results
Total Numbers: 31
Mean (Average): 12.70968
Median: 13
Mode: 7, 12, 13, 14
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