OK Foss lake Discovery

[stillwatersc]

Engine fan indicates crash for Camaro; older car may have rolled in Foss. (Daily Elk Citian)[/QUOTE]

Stalactites, which are formed from water seeping from a ceiling and leaving tubes, were found in the Camaro, Hoyle said. Stalactites can't grow underwater but must have open air.

What does this mean? Could the roof have been rounded & high enough to form an air pocket for a period of time before the roof completely corroded through?

 

[4SAM]

Engine fan indicates crash for Camaro; older car may have rolled in Foss. (Daily Elk Citian)

What does this mean? Could the roof have been rounded & high enough to form an air pocket for a period of time before the roof completely corroded through?[/QUOTE]

Oh GOSH!! Could they have still been alive? Trying to break free and use the air pocket to breathe.

 

[Falcon500]

What does this mean? Could the roof have been rounded & high enough to form an air pocket for a period of time before the roof completely corroded through?

Oh GOSH!! Could they have still been alive? Trying to break free and use the air pocket to breathe.[/QUOTE]



That is exactly what happened to Mary Jo Kopechne who was left to die by Ted Kennedy.

 

[December]

Open air? Would an air pocket in a car trapped under water really be open air? I guess if the teenagers were unconscious and drowned quickly, there would be more oxygen and that might qualify as open air. If they were alive and trying to use the air pocket, then they would use up the air fairly quickly... wouldn't they? Or do the stalactites that could grow in a car grow quicker than those found in a cave (I realize we are talking about a period of years, so "quicker" relative to how long the car has been immersed versus how long a drip in a cave may have existed).

ETA: I don't mean for them drowning quickly to sound as brutal as it does. This is a very sad case for the six occupants of the two cars. But, I would rather them to have drowned quickly since clearly no rescue was coming.

 

[December]

Oh GOSH!! Could they have still been alive? Trying to break free and use the air pocket to breathe.

That is exactly what happened to Mary Jo Kopechne who was left to die by Ted Kennedy.[/QUOTE]

R.I.P. Mary Jo.

(Quote got messed up somehow..

4SAM wrote the first part (in gray).

Falcon500 wrote the part about Mary Jo Kopechne.

I wrote the R.I.P.

 

[stillwatersc]

Sounds like the Camaro was going so fast, they may have been airborne when they hit the water. Good chance the passengers were incapacitated long enough to drown. In pitch dark, they may not have realized they were in water until it was pouring into the car. Absolutely terrifying scenario. :no:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

ITA...I can't find a way around some speculation, but I think it's amazing that all these families will have their lost (FOR FORTY YEARS) loved ones back. I don't doubt that there are surviving close family members that are now finding peace knowing what happened to their kin.

I do also wonder, as is reported that the 2 cars/2 cases, etc were a relatively (for such a large man made body of water) close to one another not ever found in the last forty years. Has the launch been maintained, rehabbed or anything in that time? What goes into maintaining a launch? Has the lake ever in these long years experienced a drought that would bring it's waters to a low level where it's possible boats could not launch from that location?

I also wonder about fish finders, my DH has a very expensive one that makes me more than a little cranky (when I paid the bill for it) the thing tells you exactly what the depth is and shows if anything is below you (which would mess with the depth level from what I understand). I don't pretend for a second to be able to tell you how it works or why, but I know that when he "trolls" for fish and I'm driving the boat, I am expected to watch for differences in lake depth. It would be very odd to be heading out of a launch and within that close of a distance to the launch to see such an anomaly. Especially since there are times you spend a lot of time "a ways out" from the launch waiting for others to get their boat in or out.

IMO it's way odd that these two cars were rather close to the launch and all these years have gone by and no one came across them, except LE using very sophisticated new sonar equipment.

ALWAYS MOO

I have to say what is making me nuts is that NO ONE SEARCHED THIS LAKE before?? I mean they are missing, Driving apparently over or near this lake and no one thought to search in it before???

 

[Falcon500]

I have to say what is making me nuts is that NO ONE SEARCHED THIS LAKE before?? I mean they are missing, Driving apparently over or near this lake and no one thought to search in it before???

Hindsight is 20-20. Why would they search the lake (actually a reservoir) meaning very deep in most places. The reservoir is about 32 miles from Sayre where the teenagers were from. Why not search every lake in the state if you are going to search that one? How do you search it 44 years ago? And why search it in the first place? If you look at an airel photo you will see that the lake is ringed by a county road.

Remember the common belief at the time was that the teens had run off to join a commune or the counter culture movement. Someone said that theory was ridiculous but that is looking at it with 2013 eyes.

Another thing. Most boys that age were close to being drafted if they had not yet entered the military. What was the draft status on the boys?

https://maps.google.com/maps/myplac...9.19384&spn=0.04608,0.104628&ctz=240&t=h&z=14

If there was any interest in the lake the authorities would look for signs of an accident on the road ringing the lake.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Hindsight is 20-20. Why would they search the lake (actually a reservoir) meaning very deep in most places. The reservoir is about 32 miles from Sayre where the teenagers were from. Why not search every lake in the state if you are going to search that one? How do you search it 44 years ago? And why search it in the first place? If you look at an airel photo you will see that the lake is ringed by a county road.

Remember the common belief at the time was that the teens had run off to join a commune or the counter culture movement. Someone said that theory was ridiculous but that is looking at it with 2013 eyes.

Another thing. Most boys that age were close to being drafted if they had not yet entered the military. What was the draft status on the boys?

https://maps.google.com/maps/myplac...9.19384&spn=0.04608,0.104628&ctz=240&t=h&z=14

If there was any interest in the lake the authorities would look for signs of an accident on the road ringing the lake.

I don't know. But to be honest if I was the parent and my child was down a road to a lake and him and all his friends disappeared I would want that lake searched. I would insist on it or get it done myself. I just can not believe no one did it before.

 

[wfgodot]

The lake was also in the opposite direction of the way the teens said they would travel, to a football game that night.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

The lake was also in the opposite direction of the way the teens said they would travel, to a football game that night.

Okay, But still. If there was a huge lake in the area, Wouldn't it come somewhere in your thinking???

I don't know.. It just seems so obvious and that no one even thought about it, seems odd. That is just me.. Maybe it would depend on how water conscience you are.

 

[wfgodot]

Lengthy article in today's Elk Citian about the sonar technology which allowed the find:

OHP Lake Patrol Division explains new sonar equipment

---
"I do believe that we will have some requests," said Trooper George Hoyle, about the technology.
---
Other lakes in western Oklahoma will be scanned next with the sonar, the goal is to scan every lake west of Interstate 35, Trooper Woody Perry said.
---

 

[Falcon500]

Okay, But still. If there was a huge lake in the area, Wouldn't it come somewhere in your thinking???

I don't know.. It just seems so obvious and that no one even thought about it, seems odd. That is just me.. Maybe it would depend on how water conscience you are.

It depends what you meaning of "area" is. It was 32 miles from Sayre. That would be like having missing teenagers in Washington, D.C. and showing up to search a lake in Annapolis, Maryland. It would make no sense.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Green arrow is Canute, OK
I did this for me to be able to see...

One of the missing was from Canute.. Which is a little closer, But I do see sayre..

Hmmm. I guess you are right, I don't know why I thought they were closer than that.

 

[wfgodot]

It is true that Foss State Park is only about 20 miles from where the football game was played in Elk City - their purported destination.

And it's about 16 miles from Canute, the town where the others were last seen the year before.

Four decades ago, two and two weren't evidently put together in this case.

 

[Rainstorm]

Amazing how the car was under there for 40 years and one can still tell how fast they were going. I wonder what else was preserved to read the situations of both cars.
If they had searched this lake back when this happened if it was forest.... Not sure if you would retrieve anything with out a lot of trouble.
I wonder what was in the forest before the flooded it......

 

[December]

As far as the kids go, I think that the fact they were going hunting should have been an idea to search places to hunt.. and this one has a big lake.

NOW people are talking about it as if it was known that they were going to that area to hunt. But, I do not know when such a determination was made.

Less clear is why did the adults go there? All three were from different places, I think. Places that were fairly close together by car, but maybe that is why they were in that area... it was on the way to one of their homes.

As far as "running off to avoid the draft", they would have been o.k. until they turned 18. As far as the counterculture goes, they were driving a muscle car to go hunting. I don't know... that really click for me. Also, I think if they were running off anywhere, then Jimmy would have taken that paycheck when the man at the grocery store tried to give it to him. Maybe it was too late to cash it by then? But, you know, gas money.

Plus, the fact that over the years, such as AFTER the Vietnam War was finished.. one of them would have gotten into contact with their families. Or the car would've turned up. I think that is whe I would start thinking the car was destroyed or something. It's a distinctive car and worth money.. it would've turned up somewhere if it had still been out riding the roads.

I can think of two missing persons cases where an unusual car was involved and eventually found. One car was BURIED by the murderer (it was a smallish car). The other was dumped in a parking lot full of other cars within a few days of it becoming clear the cops were stopping every single car like it.

 

[December]

Oh, another thing I was wondering about.. Ownership status of the car.

I can believe that Nora Duncan probably owned her car outright. It was an older car and whether she bought it new or used, she should have paid it off by 1969.

Jimmy Walker's car, however, was just freshly purchased. Did his parents make the payments? I wouldn't think so because they wanted Jimmy to come home or send them word. His father eventually reported that Jimmy was not supposed to be driving the car in the hopes that the police somewhere would stop him. ("Eventuallly" within a year or so?) So, why weren't the repo men after the car? Did the father actually buy the car outright six days before and now Jimmy was making payments to him? The articles said Jimmy's parents had "helped him get" the car, so maybe that is what happened...

 

[kline]

I don't know. But to be honest if I was the parent and my child was down a road to a lake and him and all his friends disappeared I would want that lake searched. I would insist on it or get it done myself. I just can not believe no one did it before.

Sadly as others here can attest there are instances of case after case after case from the late sixties to mid seventies where the prevailing attitude from L.E. with missing teenagers in that era was "So your little hippie dirtbag kid ran off to California with his long-hair friends...what do you want US to do about it? If we see him out during school hours well stop and talk to him."

 

[Falcon500]

Sadly as others here can attest there are instances of case after case after case from the late sixties to mid seventies where the prevailing attitude from L.E. with missing teenagers in that era was "So your little hippie dirtbag kid ran off to California with his long-hair friends...what do you want US to do about it? If we see him out during school hours well stop and talk to him."

Just curious. How do you know that? Can you provide evidence of that kiind of attitude?