GA - Kendrick Johnson, 17, Suspicious Death, Jan. 10/11, 2013, #2

[Karmady]

OK, but I thought the next class was in full swing in the gym by 1:50 or so.

It probably was. If the time stamp gap is twenty minutes, that would mean the video would show the class as "in full swing" at 2:15 rather than 1:50. But it wouldn't really be 2:15 -- it would still be 1:50. The time stamp on the video would be wrong, but everything would still take place in chronological order.

 

[Karmady]

About the position of coroners in Georgia. They are either elected or appointed by a judge of probate court. There seem to be no medical credentials required.
http://georgiacoronersassoc.org/legislation-title-45

There aren't. But in case he might happened to have some anyway, I posted his quote where he confirms he's not a doctor.

 

[Tawny]

I never knew that medical credentials were not required... That is so strange to me. You'd think that would be necessary. Interesting.

 

[Karmady]

Thanks Karmandy, I appreciate and respect your view and side of this discussion very much. I still have so many questions about how this case and how the investigation, and findings proceeded, as well as the reporting. It seems to me JMOO so many aspects were unusual from protocol on state and federal levels - just about everything else ( video, organs , witnesses) is missing,possibly redacted. In some ways I am :fence: trying to believe this was veritable accident. But, IMO
Regardless of speculation about the coroners role ( (he had met certification requirements to be Coroner and carry out the duties of his oath and job) to me Watson's insistence where he clearly is overstepping on why Coroners Inquests being rare he should have been on the scene, (with all due respect -drinking as much coffee as he needed to)
:truce:

http://georgiacoronersassoc.org/legislation-title-45

(8) “Local medical examiner” means a person meeting the requirements and authorized to perform the duties specified in subsection (b) of Code Section 45-16-23.

(9) “Medical examiner” means:

(A) The chief medical examiner;

(B) A regional medical examiner;

(C) A county medical examiner;

(D) A local medical examiner; or

(E) Any person who is employed by the state and appointed as a medical examiner as of December 1, 1989, who continues to perform the duties and exercise the powers of a medical examiner under this article when such performance and exercise are within the scope of such employment.

(10) “Medical examiner’s inquiry” means an inquiry made by a medical examiner into the circumstances surrounding a death which is required to be reported under the provisions of Code Section 45-16-24, which inquiry may include, but is not required to include, a scene investigation, an external examination, a limited dissection, an autopsy, or any combination thereof.

(11) “Medical examiner’s investigator” means a person meeting the requirements and authorized to perform the duties specified in subsection (d) of Code Section 45-16-23.

(12) “Peace officer in charge” means any peace officer of the Georgia State Patrol or agent of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, sheriff or sheriff’s deputy, peace officer assigned to the coroner’s office, county policeman, city policeman, or city detective who may be in charge of the investigation of any case involving a death covered by Code Sections 45-16-27 and 45-16-32.

(13) “Regional medical examiner” means a medical examiner who is employed by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation and who is a pathologist appointed by the chief medical examiner pursuant to Code Section 35-3-153.

(14) “Scene investigation” means an examination by the medical examiner or medical examiner’s investigator of the area surrounding a dead body or area where a death or agonal event occurred.

(15) “Unattended death,” “died unattended,” or “died unattended by a physician” means a death where a person dies of apparently natural causes and has no physician who can certify the death as being due to natural causes. If the suspected cause of death directly involves any trauma or complication of such trauma, the death must be reported to the coroner or county medical examiner. An unattended death also occurs when a person is admitted in an unresponsive state to a hospital and dies within 24 hours of admission.

~bbm

I"m not sure what you're saying here. I read your post to say that you think the coroner should have been on the scene earlier even if just to wait around, but I don't see what you're getting at with the Code or the part that's bbm. Not being snarky, I literally am either not reading it the way you intended or don't get what you're trying to say wrt his comment on inquests being rare or regarding the Code requirements for medical examiners. Medical examiner and coroner are not the same thing as far as I know. jmo

 

[Karmady]

I never knew that medical credentials were not required... That is so strange to me. You'd think that would be necessary. Interesting.

The quotes in this article from a medical examiner in Atlanta explain why:

Atlanta's Fulton County Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Dr. Eric Kiesel explains * * * First, why would a county opt for a coroner system over a medical examiners system if the differences in qualifications can be so great?

The answer is resources. In most rural areas, there may not be a whole lot of qualified forensic pathologists around nor the facilities needed for them to do their jobs properly. Additionally, rural areas with very little or no violent crime or unexplainable deaths don't need a full-time forensic pathologist.

The second question is: What is a feed store coroner going to do when faced with a dead body?

Dr Kiesel answers, "He's gonna go out and say, 'Well, he's dead.' That's the coroner's official duty."

The coroner is also responsible for:
•Identifying the body
•Notifying the next of kin
•Collecting and returning any personal belongings on the body to the family of the deceased
•Signing the death certificate

Some states, like Louisiana, require coroners to be forensic pathologists, but most county coroner systems do not. In the event that a non-medical coroner needs an autopsy performed, he or she can have it sent to a medical examiner. In some states, the government will provide the coroner with a medical examiner for the autopsy.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question732.htm

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I never knew that medical credentials were not required... That is so strange to me. You'd think that would be necessary. Interesting.

I had a friend who was a coroner. He was not a doctor but an EMT.
It is common for a coroner not to be a dr.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

There was no need for the coroner to pronounce Kendrick deceased because there was ample qualified medical personnel at the scene to do so. It was very apparent he had been deceased for some time, which was noted by qualified individuals.

Does it make sense to call in the coroner first when a deceased person is found by someone (gym teacher in this case) or in any case where first responders arrive and touch the body? It has been stated and documented that the body was not touched by LE when working the scene.

It makes more sense to me for LE to question students and review the video and other circumstances, before the coroner comes in and bags and tags the evidence and removes it and the body. It makes more sense to me to work the scene from the outside in. Especially in this case where the scene was confined to school property.

I just don't get how "coroner wasn't immediately called" equals foulplay, coverup, murder.

If anything, it's a procedural issue that is in need of further clarification for future cases. This is something that was apparently never previously questioned by anyone, including the coroner in the past. I guess if the coroner was not "immediately" called in the past, prior to any investigation being performed, then all of those cases should be looked at again to see if all the different branches of LE, EMT and any other people or personnel were involved in a conspiracy to cover up, foul play and murder.

Everyone there, no matter how vast their position is accused of being a part of a murder coverup. Now the whole world gets to see the faces of the minors that were anywhere near the gym that day, just because they went to school. What exactly is accomplished by showing said minors faces to the world, when all pertinent parties involved were given access to these tapes?

IMO, it is not acceptable to name people and make unsubstantiated claims. This only incites violence against said individuals. Even those that have dared to differ in opinion of the attorneys and speak out about it, those that have conducted their own investigation and it leads to accident have been subjected to violence and accused of betrayal.

Is subjecting innocent people to violence and ridicule, now acceptable, due to grief or financial agenda. I find these intimidation tactics to be unnecessary, unacceptable, unprofessional and down right criminal. There is no excuse for some of the tactics the attorneys have used. They have so much money that they know they are immune to civil repercussions.

The attorneys have a lot to loose, if violation of civil rights due to racism, were to become extinct. They have to keep stirring the pot, even though there is zero ounce of indication in this case there were any civil rights violations. A gain for a small few, at the expense of many others.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

There was no need for the coroner to pronounce Kendrick deceased because there was ample qualified medical personnel at the scene to do so. It was very apparent he had been deceased for some time, which was noted by qualified individuals.

Does it make sense to call in the coroner first when a deceased person is found by someone (gym teacher in this case) or in any case where first responders arrive and touch the body? It has been stated and documented that the body was not touched by LE when working the scene.

It makes more sense to me for LE to question students and review the video and other circumstances, before the coroner comes in and bags and tags the evidence and removes it and the body. It makes more sense to me to work the scene from the outside in. Especially in this case where the scene was confined to school property.

I just don't get how "coroner wasn't immediately called" equals foulplay, coverup, murder.

If anything, it's a procedural issue that is in need of further clarification for future cases. This is something that was apparently never previously questioned by anyone, including the coroner in the past. I guess if the coroner was not "immediately" called in the past, prior to any investigation being performed, then all of those cases should be looked at again to see if all the different branches of LE, EMT and any other people or personnel were involved in a conspiracy to cover up, foul play and murder.

Everyone there, no matter how vast their position is accused of being a part of a murder coverup. Now the whole world gets to see the faces of the minors that were anywhere near the gym that day, just because they went to school. What exactly is accomplished by showing said minors faces to the world, when all pertinent parties involved were given access to these tapes?

IMO, it is not acceptable to name people and make unsubstantiated claims. This only incites violence against said individuals. Even those that have dared to differ in opinion of the attorneys and speak out about it, those that have conducted their own investigation and it leads to accident have been subjected to violence and accused of betrayal.

Is subjecting innocent people to violence and ridicule, now acceptable, due to grief or financial agenda. I find these intimidation tactics to be unnecessary, unacceptable, unprofessional and down right criminal. There is no excuse for some of the tactics the attorneys have used. They have so much money that they know they are immune to civil repercussions.

The attorneys have a lot to loose, if violation of civil rights due to racism, were to become extinct. They have to keep stirring the pot, even though there is zero ounce of indication in this case there were any civil rights violations. A gain for a small few, at the expense of many others.

Actually it does. Because isn't the coroner the one who makes the legal notes on the body? As I recall Coroners are supposed to be called to any scene where there is a deceased person. I know my friend has a beeper and when called was to arrive for official pronouncement.

What would be the point in having coroners if they are not important to the process? I don't think it equals cover up, but I don't think it helps.

 

[Karmady]

But, IMO Regardless of speculation about the coroners role ( (he had met certification requirements to be Coroner and carry out the duties of his oath and job) to me Watson's insistence where he clearly is overstepping on why Coroners Inquests being rare he should have been on the scene, (with all due respect -drinking as much coffee as he needed to)

~sbm

Sorry to quote you again, but it just occurred to me that maybe you are thinking what the coroner does at the scene is the same as an inquest?

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I can't imagine any agency returning the clothing of a individual found in Kendricks condition to the family. Imagine the fluids and bacterial growth that would be present. It seems like this would be a severe biological hazard.

 

[Karmady]

Actually it does. Because isn't the coroner the one who makes the legal notes on the body? As I recall Coroners are supposed to be called to any scene where there is a deceased person. I know my friend has a beeper and when called was to arrive for official pronouncement.

What would be the point in having coroners if they are not important to the process? I don't think it equals cover up, but I don't think it helps.

If you read the article I posted and the quotes from a local (to Georgia) but urban ME, it appears that elected coroners without medical degrees are, indeed, somewhat an anachronism from fuedal times with very limited responsibility. This quote, in particular, kind of sums it up:

The second question is: What is a feed store coroner going to do when faced with a dead body?

Dr Kiesel answers, "He's gonna go out and say, 'Well, he's dead.' That's the coroner's official duty."

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Actually it does. Because isn't the coroner the one who makes the legal notes on the body? As I recall Coroners are supposed to be called to any scene where there is a deceased person. I know my friend has a beeper and when called was to arrive for official pronouncement.

What would be the point in having coroners if they are not important to the process? I don't think it equals cover up, but I don't think it helps.

So are you saying that when a person, such as the gym teacher or EMT's find a body, they are to not touch it (even if they are unsure the body is deceased) which would be the case with the gym teacher and they should call the coroner before touching the body, instead of attempting to save the person? The first instinct of a lot of humans when they find a body, especially if it's a loved one, is to try and save the life. When calling 911, they instruct you on CPR until EMT's arrive to take over. If a crime occurred or is suspected to have occurred, the crime scene is then automatically compromised.

 

[iSleuth]

~sbm

Sorry to quote you again, but it just occurred to me that maybe you are thinking what the coroner does at the scene is the same as an inquest?

No, I am not confused. Jmo there just too many examples of inconsistencies of protocol ( the coroner is only one) examples where inconsistencies are explained away by the powers that be and people defending the powers that be . We could find legislation all day long which pertains to actions of everyone there- the school, the teachers , staff, custodians , security, all LE and forensic teams and they all missed or messed up significant steps in duties and protocols the 24 hours that Kj went missing and died in the old gym at his HS . As a certified and highly trained teacher I find many aspects of this accident alarming !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[iSleuth]

So are you saying that when a person, such as the gym teacher or EMT's find a body, they are to not touch it (even if they are unsure the body is deceased) which would be the case with the gym teacher and they should call the coroner before touching the body, instead of attempting to save the person? The first instinct of a lot of humans when they find a body, especially if it's a loved one, is to try and save the life. When calling 911, they instruct you on CPR until EMT's arrive to take over. If a crime occurred or is suspected to have occurred, the crime scene is then automatically compromised.

When you see blood... At school you are not to touch it . Must contact custodians security and file reports . Definitely not anything Nope if you see a dead body ??? No- definitely not. Unless student is choking??? Or suddenly collapses some schools do train in CPR others no. Never There are very strict procedures . Call cops ... When xyz call nurse xyz call social worker xyz. I have done each in 30 years .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tawny]

I can't imagine any agency returning the clothing of a individual found in Kendricks condition to the family. Imagine the fluids and bacterial growth that would be present. It seems like this would be a severe biological hazard.

That is exactly what I was thinking. Decomposed flesh and bodily fluids are biohazards.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

When you see blood... At school you are not to touch it . Must contact custodians security and file reports . Definitely not anything Nope if you see a dead body ??? No- definitely not. Unless student is choking??? Or suddenly collapses some schools do train in CPR others no. Never There are very strict procedures . Call cops ... When xyz call nurse xyz call social worker xyz. I have done each in 30 years .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IMO, it doesn't matter what training a person receives, when you see a persons feet upside down in a mat, what kind of person would not try and free that individual and check for signs of life?

What would people be saying had he just done nothing or had EMT's done nothing to determine life?

 

[Sherp]

No, I am not confused. Jmo there just too many examples of inconsistencies of protocol ( the coroner is only one) examples where inconsistencies are explained away by the powers that be and people defending the powers that be . We could find legislation all day long which pertains to actions of everyone there- the school, the teachers , staff, custodians , security, all LE and forensic teams and they all missed or messed up significant steps in duties and protocols the 24 hours that Kj went missing and died in the old gym at his HS . As a certified and highly trained teacher I find many aspects of this accident alarming !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Please list inconsistencies of protocol besides not calling coroner immediately. As a licensed, highly trained Registered Nurse with decades of Emergency Department experience, I would be alarmed if no one tried to help a person in time of need. I believe in the local LE, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation who were on the scene very quickly and the GBI board certified forensic physician who did the peer reviewed autopsy. The thing about blood is that OSHA recommends that it not be touched without proper protective gear due to HIV exposure. Thankfully, this teacher on scene sought to help the student not knowing that he was deceased and decomposing.

 

[scmom]

I wonder if the family is aware of who is on a coroner's jury? If the family wants someone outside of the area to look into the death this is not the way to go.

 

[Karmady]

No, I am not confused. Jmo there just too many examples of inconsistencies of protocol ( the coroner is only one) examples where inconsistencies are explained away by the powers that be and people defending the powers that be . We could find legislation all day long which pertains to actions of everyone there- the school, the teachers , staff, custodians , security, all LE and forensic teams and they all missed or messed up significant steps in duties and protocols the 24 hours that Kj went missing and died in the old gym at his HS . As a certified and highly trained teacher I find many aspects of this accident alarming !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Okay. Then I guess I still don't understand the parts of your post about the coroner's comment about inquests or the quotes about the ME from the Code?

jmo

 

[Karmady]

I wonder if the family is aware of who is on a coroner's jury? If the family wants someone outside of the area to look into the death this is not the way to go.

Crump was very clear in his goal for requesting an inquest. He wants to get as much information as possible into the public domain. It's in the presser the day the petition for the inquest was filed.

jmo