GA GA - Shirley, 87, & Russell Dermond, 88, Putnam Co, 2 May 2014 - #13

[Rational_Geographic]

Are you speculating not a thing but a person?

Not necessarily but I never considered that. What if it was a request or even something like an apology?

 

[K.jill]

Not necessarily but I never considered that. What if it was a request or even something like an apology?

imo, this is possible and plausible. Stills said nothing was missing and he thought the killer(s) were looking for something.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

Riddle me this.. what if Sills is right, what if the perp indeed went to the Dermond's residence in search of something that they were not successful in their pursuit of and in the process (as a result) the Dermonds were brutally slain. But what if that "thing" they wanted was not a "thing," at all?

If whatever they wanted wasn't there, they wouldn't have spent the whole next day there, using the garden hose in the yard. They would have left as soon as they found that that whatever they wanted, was not there.

 

[Rational_Geographic]

If whatever they wanted wasn't there, they wouldn't have spent the whole next day there, using the garden hose in the yard. They would have left as soon as they found that that whatever they wanted, was not there.

The whole next day? Interesting. My idea is they assaulted and killed them in the early am of the 3rd (Saturday) and then later that night they dumped SD in Lake Oconee and came back with the tools to decapitate RD, hence the lamp they relocated from the livingroom to the garage. Where are you getting they used the garden hose? Also interesting.

 

[Rational_Geographic]

I think Howard Sills is fantastic. He's exactly the kind of person you would want at the helm, here. However he's not immune to having tunnel vision in some aspects just like any of us could. The more and more I learn about this case the more apparent it is to me that the way we've been presented the facts on the face of things and the ideas about what happened, is inevitably a considerable departure from the actual reality. Not in an intentionally deceptive way necessarily either, but just in the sense that all the mitigating factors considered at once for some reason, mixed in with assumptions creates uncertainty and confusion. The only explanation for why this case is this way after eleven years and remains unsolved, is therefore because some fundamental aspects of this case and extenuating elements are just simply incorrect. That's why Sills keeps saying the leads all dry up because most of them are based on incorrect information from jump.

What I'm trying to politely say here is they need to start over again, reexamine everything.

As I've stated, I continually reserve the right to be wrong and revise but at this point I think all the stuff about the entrance security cameras and the lake and the beheading, all these things combined make people rush to make these assumptions to where they are unable to just stay with the facts. My current idea, which is probably wrong on some level or perhaps entirely is that the killer or killers are locals who is or at least was very close, within walking distance. They arrived on foot. They had access to a driveway and a dock closeby, perhaps even a house or garage or building of some sort where they were able to lure the Dermonds (because of the lack of blood splatter in the home but not sure why the cadaver dogs were unable to pick up on this.) The killer or someone close to the killer was forensically aware, perhaps even former le. I'm perplexed as to why this is never considered or mentioned because at what point do you have to say only someone who understands how to commit a crime and leave zero evidence behind has to be someone who intimately knows the investigative process? The only other idea I can come up with for why there's the appearance of no prints or DNA left behind by the killer and house "untouched" is because the actual killer's DNA is in fact everywhere because its someone who had frequently been at the property.

Then you have the issue of everyone in LO answering questions for Sills with no problem and passing polygraphs etc. Initially I would accept these efforts at face value but I've also seen Sills say something to the effect that residents were so nervous to speak out of fear that they'd be next to be beheaded. Then a week later everyone is no longer afraid because they reasoned that the Dermonds were targeted. So which is it? Were some of these residents "shaken up" when talking to LE, not so much out of fear of retaliation but rather because they know things or dare I even say did things? Not pointing the finger, I'm just saying what was the criteria used to establish this baseline of nerves that subsided in the community? Something is being overlooked.

The one thing you can bank on is that whatever it is that is protecting this person or persons, there's something about them that people inherently and naturally dismiss about them being a suspect. Maybe its their age, maybe its their health, gender. Whatever it is, its something that's worked well in their favor for over a decade. Its high time to start over imo. Assume nothing. Start in an immediate time/space concentric circle from the Dermond household. Go address to address and look over interviews and maybe even re-interview these individuals if possible. This case is not as complicated as it appears imo.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

Suspect in 2002 alleged Athens murder indicted

A Clarke County grand jury this week indicted a 34-year-old Decatur man for an alleged murder that occurred in Athens 16 years ago. Abdus Salaam Laroche was arrested May 8 for the 2002 fatal stabbi…

www.onlineathens.com

For example, it could be somebody similar to this guy. This guy grew up in that weird cult in that county. He apparently vacuumed the place after the murder he committed, and got up most of the evidence. So perhaps the murderer at the Dermond house did the same thing. Vacuumed and wiped up after the crime was committed. That's why he was still there the next day, he was still cleaning up.

 

[Cedars]

I think Howard Sills is fantastic. He's exactly the kind of person you would want at the helm, here. However he's not immune to having tunnel vision in some aspects just like any of us could. The more and more I learn about this case the more apparent it is to me that the way we've been presented the facts on the face of things and the ideas about what happened, is inevitably a considerable departure from the actual reality. Not in an intentionally deceptive way necessarily either, but just in the sense that all the mitigating factors considered at once for some reason, mixed in with assumptions creates uncertainty and confusion. The only explanation for why this case is this way after eleven years and remains unsolved, is therefore because some fundamental aspects of this case and extenuating elements are just simply incorrect. That's why Sills keeps saying the leads all dry up because most of them are based on incorrect information from jump.

What I'm trying to politely say here is they need to start over again, reexamine everything.

As I've stated, I continually reserve the right to be wrong and revise but at this point I think all the stuff about the entrance security cameras and the lake and the beheading, all these things combined make people rush to make these assumptions to where they are unable to just stay with the facts. My current idea, which is probably wrong on some level or perhaps entirely is that the killer or killers are locals who is or at least was very close, within walking distance. They arrived on foot. They had access to a driveway and a dock closeby, perhaps even a house or garage or building of some sort where they were able to lure the Dermonds (because of the lack of blood splatter in the home but not sure why the cadaver dogs were unable to pick up on this.) The killer or someone close to the killer was forensically aware, perhaps even former le. I'm perplexed as to why this is never considered or mentioned because at what point do you have to say only someone who understands how to commit a crime and leave zero evidence behind has to be someone who intimately knows the investigative process? The only other idea I can come up with for why there's the appearance of no prints or DNA left behind by the killer and house "untouched" is because the actual killer's DNA is in fact everywhere because its someone who had frequently been at the property.

Then you have the issue of everyone in LO answering questions for Sills with no problem and passing polygraphs etc. Initially I would accept these efforts at face value but I've also seen Sills say something to the effect that residents were so nervous to speak out of fear that they'd be next to be beheaded. Then a week later everyone is no longer afraid because they reasoned that the Dermonds were targeted. So which is it? Were some of these residents "shaken up" when talking to LE, not so much out of fear of retaliation but rather because they know things or dare I even say did things? Not pointing the finger, I'm just saying what was the criteria used to establish this baseline of nerves that subsided in the community? Something is being overlooked.

The one thing you can bank on is that whatever it is that is protecting this person or persons, there's something about them that people inherently and naturally dismiss about them being a suspect. Maybe its their age, maybe its their health, gender. Whatever it is, its something that's worked well in their favor for over a decade. Its high time to start over imo. Assume nothing. Start in an immediate time/space concentric circle from the Dermond household. Go address to address and look over interviews and maybe even re-interview these individuals if possible. This case is not as complicated as it appears imo.

I agree that there's almost too many details, that obscure the essence of the case.

In particular, no one really knows what kind of crime it really was. Straight out murder?

The Sheriff keeps mentioning some type of extortion.

"Now Sills thinks the Dermonds died after what he calls a botched robbery extortion — in which the Dermonds were unable to deliver whatever cash or valuables the bad guys demanded."

Mystery man emerges in year-old Ga. beheading case

Russell Dermond was found beheaded; his wife's body was found in lake last year.

www.usatoday.com

Clearly, there was an intention to involve both members of the couple. Russell was the guy with the money. He could have been lured somewhere without involving Shirley. For example, go to the house when she was at her bridge game, or confront him when he was out for a walk, or make an appointment under some pretext.

No, he/they wanted them in the house.

I think Russell still being in his robe/pajamas/slippers indicates, the couple were confronted in the house. Surely if he'd been tricked to go anywhere outside his back yard, he'd have put on some clothes and shoes.

So was the plan to kidnap Shirley and hold her a
hostage, to force Russell to do something? But it didn't work...?

So then, perhaps all the effort to dispose of her in the lake was because she had DNA and fibres and hair etc on her, from being handled and moved...and so the perps were determined none of that potential evidence should ever be obtained...

But extortion of what? Was he expected to have a safe full of cash and valuables, and they wanted the combination?

They don't seem to have been living a flashy lifestyle that might lead someone to think they had hidden cash or jewels.

Have there been similar crimes as that elsewhere? Because I feel like that wouldn't be a one-off, it would be an MO.

I don't believe it's very likely the killer(s) planned to force him to go to the bank and withdraw up to his daily limit... That's usually pretty low, but I guess it'd be good to know what that limit was at his bank (Pat Brown's theory is that he didn't use ATMs, so couldn't withdraw cash).

He's surely not going to make an appointment with his bank manager on a Saturday and ask for 25k in unmarked bills...

If it was something in the home they wanted: why not just kill them both and ransack the home...

What else could someone like Russell have, that could be acquired through extortion/murder, but not be traced by police?
- valuable art? they don't seem the type.

It is a puzzle...

JMO

 

[concernedcitizen706]

I agree that there's almost too many details, that obscure the essence of the case.

In particular, no one really knows what kind of crime it really was. Straight out murder?

The Sheriff keeps mentioning some type of extortion.

"Now Sills thinks the Dermonds died after what he calls a botched robbery extortion — in which the Dermonds were unable to deliver whatever cash or valuables the bad guys demanded."

Mystery man emerges in year-old Ga. beheading case

Russell Dermond was found beheaded; his wife's body was found in lake last year.

www.usatoday.com

Clearly, there was an intention to involve both members of the couple. Russell was the guy with the money. He could have been lured somewhere without involving Shirley. For example, go to the house when she was at her bridge game, or confront him when he was out for a walk, or make an appointment under some pretext.

No, he/they wanted them in the house.

I think Russell still being in his robe/pajamas/slippers indicates, the couple were confronted in the house. Surely if he'd been tricked to go anywhere outside his back yard, he'd have put on some clothes and shoes.

So was the plan to kidnap Shirley and hold her a
hostage, to force Russell to do something? But it didn't work...?

So then, perhaps all the effort to dispose of Mary in the lake was because she had DNA and fibres and hair etc on her, from being handled and moved...and so the perps were determined none of that potential evidence should ever be obtained...

But extortion of what? Was he expected to have a safe full of cash and valuables, and they wanted the combination?

They don't seem to have been living a flashy lifestyle that might lead someone to think they had hidden cash or jewels.

Have there been similar crimes as that elsewhere? Because I feel like that wouldn't be a one-off, it would be an MO.

I don't believe it's very likely the killer(s) planned to force him to go to the bank and withdraw up to his daily limit... That's usually pretty low, but I guess it'd be good to know what that limit was at his bank (Pat Brown's theory is that he didn't use ATMs, so couldn't withdraw cash).

He's surely not going to make an appointment with his bank manager on a Saturday and ask for 25k in unmarked bills...

If it was something in the home they wanted: why not just kill them both and ransack the home...

What else could someone like Russell have, that could be acquired through extortion/murder, but not be traced by police?
- valuable art? they don't seem the type.

It is a puzzle...

JMO

Why is it such a puzzle? Why are you discounting the idea of a serial killing? You don't have too many robbers that go around cutting off heads. Not in this country anyway.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

Suspect in 2002 alleged Athens murder indicted

A Clarke County grand jury this week indicted a 34-year-old Decatur man for an alleged murder that occurred in Athens 16 years ago. Abdus Salaam Laroche was arrested May 8 for the 2002 fatal stabbi…

www.onlineathens.com

For example, it could be somebody similar to this guy. This guy grew up in that weird cult in that county. He apparently vacuumed the place after the murder he committed, and got up most of the evidence. So perhaps the murderer at the Dermond house did the same thing. Vacuumed and wiped up after the crime was committed. That's why he was still there the next day, he was still cleaning up.

In fact I think this guy could be a possible suspect. He had a similar MO with another murder, nearby there, before this. He grew up in that county. He was good at cleaning up the crime scene. Maybe he did it with somebody else.

 

[Cedars]

Why is it such a puzzle? Why are you discounting the idea of a serial killing? You don't have too many robbers that go around cutting off heads. Not in this country anyway.

I was exploring Sheriff Sill's theory.

 

[Rational_Geographic]

Why is it such a puzzle? Why are you discounting the idea of a serial killing? You don't have too many robbers that go around cutting off heads. Not in this country anyway.

How is it a serial killing? Where is the signature or even repeated mo for that matter. It can't be a serial killing with one instance of murder.

I think what a lot of people are missing in their theories is an attempt to reconstruct a logical crimeflow. Once you realize Shirley was not in the home after she was killed, things should make more sense. Russell's body was clearly dragged from the side door entrance in the garage to the area approximately where he was found (well sort of, he appears to have been placed there and then moved a few feet.) There's nothing to indicate Shirley was killed in the home or even placed in the home after she was bludgeond. Shirley was also delivered at least two very hard blows to the back of her canium and her skull was caved in. Russell was present during these vicious attacks on his wife and likely intervened because he has a hand wound on his left hand that Sills says indicates this and also has a strand of her hair intertwined. Now you have to make sense of that.

Also their killer/killers did not leave DNA, prints or shoeprints behind in the home. Some jump to the conclusion that this is an indication the killers were incredibly meticulous/efficient/disciplined as to not touch anything. This is certainly a fair observation but I disagree that they just were very cautious to not leave behind any evidence. Its much more likely they achieved that outcome/appearance by just making an dedicated effort to only spend a minimal amount of time in the residence. I do not believe they were hanging out there for hours and hours. Even in the garage Sills says they hardly touched anything. And no the idea that the killers scrubbed everything down with bleach is also dismissed by Sills. They have forensic methods that can determine when that is done and it was not in their case.

What makes this even more frustrating is that the Dermonds were most likely confronted at their home and killed early Saturday am. They base this on a number of things.. the USA Today crossword puzzle (delivered the day before on Friday for Saturday, which was the norm Shirley's typical routine) having been started, Russell being in his jammies, and the mail for Saturday and the following days gathering in their mailbox. Also Shirley was dressed for the day, yet she was not "dressed up" for the Derby. I also believe her autopsy revealed her stomach was empty so she had not yet had breakfast so, this is early am. We then know that their killer or one of the killers is seen on the property later that afternoon. Sills makes it a point repeatedly to say in interviews and podcasts "its not about what the witness couldn't see that was important." He also has said that what the killer saw somehow indicates that there's more than one person involved (haven't figured out why that is, personally.) This is again, frustrating because I just don't believe the killers hung out in the Dermond's home all day and did not touch anything. That's just absurd. Additionally if you notice, after Sills was in contact with the witness he's no longer speculating on wether the killers arrived via boat, and he seems much more open to the possibility of a car. Sills never mentions a boat even though the witness saw the man by the dock in the backyard.

Where was the killer/s with the Dermonds, dead or alive, during these hours? I had initially considered the idea that the killer perhaps backed a van up to their driveway and maybe that could be where Shirley was placed after she was killed and transported to a different location but unless she was killed in the van (why would a killer who avoided evidence being left behind anywhere in the home employ that incredibly stupid and incriminating strategy) that doesn't account for the lack of her blood anywhere on the property.

I no longer believe that the killer took the risk to bypass the security gate. Its just not something that makes sense, especially not with a dead body in tow. My theory now is they arrived on foot. This was someone closeby who had access to a home with a dock that was either theirs or one of the vacant vacation homes in the area but it had to have been very closeby and a realistic path for cover, in terms of being able to obscure themselves while shuttling a dead body to amongst forrested conditions.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

Did you all see the latest Valentine's Day death on the lake there? A couple found missing from their boat on the lake.

New details emerge as sheriff calls Lake Oconee search for missing Atlanta man ‘unprecedented’

Authorities plan to deploy a cadaver dog Friday as the search expands for Gary Jones, nearly a week after he and his fiancée are believed to have fallen overboard.

www.11alive.com

 

[STAGNUM]

Post in thread 'What case really burns your butt?'

Feb 27, 2025

can you expand on this more? do you have specific suspects in mind?

I have a couple theories, the main one has to do with mistaken identity with another person key to the case who has history with a certain criminal group from early in his career. This video was taken before the murders. As an aside, there is an interesting, yet short encounter between Russell and another gentleman in the store. I wonder if Sheriff Sills ever followed up with that person?

While you watch RD shop in the video, look at him and then consider how Sheriff Sills might appear in civilian clothes and...

• STAGNUM

• 

without his mustache. Could someone from Sheriff Sills past want him gone? What if that person spotted RD as his doppelganger? What if that person followed RD from the store or bank to his home and sent a team out later, with a sword?

I will wrap my theory up thusly: Sheriff Sills brought down the Nuwaubian Nation. Its members were many and they still exist. Someone in that cult wanted Sheriff Sills dead. Russell Dermond, in the video above resembles Sheriff Sills as dressed above, sans the white mustache. Someone may have spotted Russel Dermond, followed him to his home and then erroneously arranged the murder or acted spontaneously. RD's head taken as proof, a prize for the leader of the NN.

Does this explain why Sheriff Sills has failed to engage GBI or FBI in this case and why year after year new leads are found and quickly disposed of. We do know Sheriff Sills is very afraid of intruders on his property as evidenced by his armed response to an accidental encounter on his driveway .

 

[STAGNUM]

Did you all see the latest Valentine's Day death on the lake there? A couple found missing from their boat on the lake.

New details emerge as sheriff calls Lake Oconee search for missing Atlanta man ‘unprecedented’

Authorities plan to deploy a cadaver dog Friday as the search expands for Gary Jones, nearly a week after he and his fiancée are believed to have fallen overboard.

www.11alive.com

That is pretty sad.

 

[STAGNUM]

New (insert latest update here) Evidence Analyzed in the 2014 Murders of Shirley and Russell Dermond at Lake Oconee, GA ... 11 years later....​

Just throwing this up early for Sheriff Sills to cut and paste into his May 2025 update on the case...

 

[airportwoman]

I'm honestly starting to wonder if whoever did this has died in the meantime, and that's why we can't seem to get any information.

 

[legomonster]

I'm honestly starting to wonder if whoever did this has died in the meantime, and that's why we can't seem to get any information.

This is why I was so, so thankful that in the Veronica Butler/Jilian Kelley case, the local police immediately added FBI and state officials that have more resources, training, etc to help solve/expedite such complicated crime scenes.

 

[MassGuy]

This is why I was so, so thankful that in the Veronica Butler/Jilian Kelley case, the local police immediately added FBI and state officials that have more resources, training, etc to help solve/expedite such complicated crime scenes.

This is the sort of case that not only required that, but required it immediately. I’m always grateful when I see state or Federal agencies brought in early on, because I’ve seen what can happen when that doesn’t occur.

This is a prime example.

 

[STAGNUM]

I'm honestly starting to wonder if whoever did this has died in the meantime, and that's why we can't seem to get any information.

The only reason this has not been solved is entirely the fault of Sheriff Sills. He should know exactly who did this and why.

 

[Ssschu]

New (insert latest update here) Evidence Analyzed in the 2014 Murders of Shirley and Russell Dermond at Lake Oconee, GA ... 11 years later....​

Just throwing this up early for Sheriff Sills to cut and paste into his May 2025 update on the case...

It came early but you nailed it...

Citing the horrific double murder of an elderly couple as his “No. 1 case,” the sheriff of Putnam County, Georgia, said he is waiting on the results of DNA testing related to the 2014 slaying of Russell and Shirley Dermond.

Sheriff Howard Sills said this week that two DNA labs - one in Texas and the other in Utah - have found DNA tied to the murders of Russell and Shirley Dermond. Sillis said the DNA examined by both Othram and Sorenson Forensics have determined it does not belong to the victims.

“I’m waiting on the results of whatever they have,” Sills said. “Hopefully we’ll be able to submit it to CODIS [a national criminal DNA database]. If there’s no hit there, I’m hoping we can get it into the genealogical database.”

Georgia sheriff expecting DNA results from 2014 double murder | ATLVault

Russell and Shirley Dermond were killed in what an FBI agent called ‘one of the strangest cases I’ve ever seen.’

www.atlantanewsfirst.com