General Discussion and Theories #3

[Archangel7]

I have never heard of LE saying, "We have enough evidence, we don't need to look for a murder weapon or bother to process the entire scene, that's not worth getting a warrant for."

They either looked in the barn the first time or they didn't, and it was posted here that there was media confirmation that they did look in the barn the first time. Therefore it seems unreal to me that when TPS were conducting their search for LB that HPS wouldn't suggest that they also get a warrant to look into the suspicious barrels or under the mounds of hay. And again, if it was about getting a warrant, they could have easily secured the barn until a warrant could be made. What judge wouldn't be curious about what might be in 54 barrels in a couple of homicide investigations?

The accused didn't have strong enough rights to keep news cameras from trespassing on his property and taking footage through his windows, I can't imagine those rights were what kept LE from searching the barn. Also, in that case, wouldn't he still have the same rights to keep his barn from being searched now as he did in May and June? I think a missing woman supposedly connected to the accused along with the combination of having 54 great places to hide a body would have been sufficient to get a warrant to search the barn, in my opinion.

I believe when we are comparing these searches to RW or PB, we have to remember that those were searches of residences where other people resided, this is a dilapidated old barn, less chance of disturbing innocent people in that search. There still is no reasonable explanation as to why they waited 4 months to search the only building on the property, in my opinion.

If I were arrested for suspicion of murder and the police searched my house thoroughly, but then looked into my garage and saw a whole bunch of barrels and tarps covering everything, I would really be shocked if they didn't peek under the tarps or crack open at least a few barrels. Does this not seem odd to anyone else here?

Ask exactly what you are confused about specifically so that it may be answered specifically in the spirit of resolving the mobius loop of explaining that has been done over how search warrants are sought, obtained, dated, issued, executed, inventoried, and post search returned.

This is assuming of course a honest educational/informational solution is being sought. If only to perpetuate arguing, I'll refrain........

On your case of murder and your house/garage........if LE had probable cause AND could convince a judge of that probable cause that evidence is in the house and/or garage the Judge may sign, issue, approve, etc. a search warrant for both house/garage.

Many times the Judge(who doesn't like to look inept by having a appeal affirmed nor violate rights/laws)will ask LE to narrow down the search area as in what room or ask if you're seeking access to the attic. He usually won't easily allow a house search warrant to blanket cover every real estate holding(building) on that property nor the complete property(dirt). In some countries a vehicle is by law, real estate so that's a wrinkle also some places.

I have instructed at a LE Academy once upon a time and I'm sure I can help you reach closure on this search warrant issue.

With all genuine consideration and the usual and customary respect of course.

ETA........ I see SB has given as good a logical, understandable and case law based explanation while I was posting.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Off topic, did anyone see dogs joining the search there this time?

rsbm

I don't believe they brought any dogs in for this last search either, at least not from the OPP team.

The Bolton, Ont.-based OPP team has expertise in identifying vapours, liquids and crystals. It was formed after the 9/11 terrorist attack 12 years ago to deal with biological, chemical, nuclear, radiological and explosive dangers. The team is made of 23 officers and four dogs. The dogs were not at the Millard property.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4079479-hazardous-materials-team-firefighters-join-search-at-millard-farm-near-roseville/

 

[Alethea Dice]

Jennifer Pagliaro from the Toronto Star tweets:



https://twitter.com/jpags

No surprise there.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Previous owner said the barn had no cellar or sub-level where the barrels could have been stored
.
http://www.therecord.com/news-story...-missing-woman-s-family-anxious-for-findings/

I do not believe that some 54 barrels of unknown substances would have been found then left unattended by LE in the open within the barn. Therefore IMO, they were well concealed.

It's no easy task to hide 50 some barrels. Visualize the space required.
Here's a photo of approx 50barrels (albeit unrelated to this case)

DM had the resources(money, equip operators),
materials (recall the pile of I-beams outside the barn),
tools (excavator, skidsteer etc) and
time to construct an underground storage bunker to house the barrels.

What would be your reasoning behind going to the trouble of building an underground bunker in a falling down barn, just to hide 54 barrels that have nothing in them that is relevant to anything?

 

[Archangel7]

What would be your reasoning behind going to the trouble of building an underground bunker in a falling down barn, just to hide 54 barrels that have nothing in them that is relevant to anything?

It was probably an OC frame up event to create prejudicial confusion around Search and Seizure Procedures.

However for whatever the reason was, I agree in principle with the apparent fact that they contain relatively benign substances.

 

[Murphys_Law]

IMO, the 54 barrels of unknown substances are very relevant until proven otherwise.

It has been suggested today by a reporter via twitter that the barrels are not relevant to the LB case only. That the recovery of said barrels required drug officers in full hazmat gear, 5 firefighters and an ambulance on hand during the recovery process only reinforces my believe that the contents of the barrels are significant. Therefore the barrels remain a significant finding until the contents of which are disclosed publicly.*

If the barrels happen to contain substances used in the production or disposal of illicit drugs ( raw material, or waste products) then they are certainly worthy (from the owners perspective) of being concealed. Storage of such raw materials in hidden rooms, including underground bunkers is not uncommon in the drug world. The waste is typically dumped, buried, or burnt.

 

[puppyraiser]

Why would DM go to the trouble to transport all those barrels to the farm and not just dispose of them through the proper channels at the airport? Hazardous waste management would frequent the airport to pick up from other businesses. Was he being frugal and not wanting to pay the removal fee, or was there some other reason he'd go to that much trouble? Was he keeping some type of fuel source in a few of them for the incinerator?

ETA I see Murphys Law posted a good explanation of why the barrels might be on the farm. I wonder if DM buried any in the swamp area.

 

[Archangel7]

If, (and only if) the barrels contain substances used in the production of illicit drugs ( raw material, or waste products) then they are certainly worthy of being concealed in an underground bunker.

....rsbm

A valid point.

However I have seen numerous illicit labs with ether, caustic, batteries, battery acid, tygon tubing and dry ice condensers. None of which would be obvious or absolutely odd or illegal in a farmer's barn individually.
Given other clues like precursors, location, intel, etc., a whole other picture begins to emerge, which begins to align with your point.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Why would DM go to the trouble to transport all those barrels to the farm and not just dispose of them through the proper channels at the airport? Hazardous waste management would frequent the airport to pick up from other businesses. Was he being frugal and not wanting to pay the removal fee, or was there some other reason he'd go to that much trouble? Was he keeping some type of fuel source in a few of them for the incinerator?

ETA I see Murphys Law posted a good explanation of why the barrels might be on the farm. I wonder if DM buried any in the swamp area.

Excellent questions puppyraiser!

Re:Could DMV have buried any in the swamp area?

While studying the photo (snapped by the neighbour) of the yellow excavator in the swamp area , the thought that he was burying waste products from illicit drug production crossed my mind. In particular, the propane tanks, and other seemingly out of place albeit unidentifiable objects, cans etc in cardboard boxes surrounding the excavator led to believe something nefarious had been going on.

PS:
Here's a link to the tweet and photo:
@trevorjdunn: Neighbour of Dellen Millard says a swampy area of Bosma murder suspect's farm was being excavated this winter. http://twitter.com/trevorjdunn/status/334422275145224192/photo/1

 

[puppyraiser]

Excellent questions puppyraiser!

Re:Could DMV have buried any in the swamp area?

While studying the photo (snapped by the neighbour) of the yellow excavator in the swamp area , the thought that he was burying waste products from illicit drug production crossed my mind. In particular, the propane tanks, and other seemingly out of place albeit unidentifiable objects, cans etc in cardboard boxes surrounding the excavator led to believe something nefarious had been going on.

I thought the same thing as well and voiced it back when the pics came out. Why would he be using the excavator and bobcat in the winter out in a swamp area? Can't imagine it was for legal purposes.

 

[Murphys_Law]

....rsbm

A valid point.

However I have seen numerous illicit labs with ether, caustic, batteries, battery acid, tygon tubing and dry ice condensers. None of which would be obvious or absolutely odd or illegal in a farmer's barn individually.
Given other clues like precursors, location, intel, etc., a whole other picture begins to emerge, which begins to align with your point.

Exactly!
None of the items in and by themselves are strongly suggestive of anything out of the norm -- it is the totality of the findings and observations that are of significance.

 

[Juballee]

Respectfully, what I am confused about AA is why not one of the over 100 LE involved would have the same thought that every single sleuther had here when they found out that there were barrels in that barn. Why, even if the warrant they had didn't cover it, no one thought to see if they could get a warrant to cover looking under the hay or in the barrels? I am not sure if your training can answer those questions, unfortunately. If, as you suggest in another post, they themselves were not fully trained to discern if it was relevant or not, they could have asked whoever was overseeing them for guidance, could they not?

That is very confusing to me, I mean, if they genuinely wanted to find a missing woman or clues to TB's death, doesn't it only make sense that they look into the barrels or under the hay at the time that they first noticed them? Even if they had to guard them while they waited a few days for another warrant, it would have been just a part of due diligence, in my opinion.

I am trying to find a logical reason why they wouldn't search it at the time that does not involve a conspiracy theory or insinuate incompetency, respectfully, but I cannot believe that it would have been harder to get a warrant for the barn than it would be to get one for the hanger and his home, especially if even one LE spied even one barrel or realized the wealth of evidence that could have been hidden under that hay.

And in my opinion, they must have spotted at least one barrel, especially when you see the picture above for reference on how much space they would take up. Hadn't they only taken a couple of boards out before they started bringing out barrels? I don't imagine that they built a bunker to hide all those barrels by covered it with only 2 boards.

Also, I agree with Arnie that the barrels are probably there because they were filled with leftovers too valuable to scrap, and if he was like his father, he was frugal (they could quite easily be left over from WM as well) and I think that they could be the junk AS wanted moved from the hanger that we didn't see in the photos of it looking clean and tidy. And if that were the case, there would have been no need to hide them, they would likely have been out in plain sight, begging to investigated by the first officer to lay eyes on them.

 

[Sillybilly]

PS:
Here's a link to the tweet and photo:
@trevorjdunn: Neighbour of Dellen Millard says a swampy area of Bosma murder suspect's farm was being excavated this winter. http://twitter.com/trevorjdunn/status/334422275145224192/photo/1

<rsbm>

Hard to say without an area code, but that phone number combined with O'Connell Excavation seem to match up with an excavation/septic company in Weedsport, New York:

http://www.google.ca/#q=252-0705+o'connell+excavation&start=30

Why would they have an excavator from NY?

 

[Snoofo]

Why would DM go to the trouble to transport all those barrels to the farm and not just dispose of them through the proper channels at the airport? Hazardous waste management would frequent the airport to pick up from other businesses. Was he being frugal and not wanting to pay the removal fee, or was there some other reason he'd go to that much trouble? Was he keeping some type of fuel source in a few of them for the incinerator?

ETA I see Murphys Law posted a good explanation of why the barrels might be on the farm. I wonder if DM buried any in the swamp area.

Wayne was frugal. Maybe he put them there to save on disposal fees until such a time as the MRO biz made some dough. Did DM purchase the farm around the time they had to leave Pearson?

 

[Alethea Dice]

IMO, the 54 barrels of unknown substances are very relevant until proven otherwise.

It has been suggested today by a reporter via twitter that the barrels are not relevant to the LB case only. That the recovery of said barrels required drug officers in full hazmat gear, 5 firefighters and an ambulance on hand during the recovery process only reinforces my believe that the contents of the barrels are significant. Therefore the barrels remain a significant finding until the contents of which are disclosed publicly.*

If the barrels happen to contain substances used in the production or disposal of illicit drugs ( raw material, or waste products) then they are certainly worthy (from the owners perspective) of being concealed. Storage of such raw materials in hidden rooms, including underground bunkers is not uncommon in the drug world. The waste is typically dumped, buried, or burnt.

I'd have to assume that they weren't relevant to TB's case either since an earlier warrant wasn't requested by Hamilton LE. I didn't realize LE was possibly looking into illicit drug production. I'm not a big believer in OC involvement, and a large drug production operation with that many hidden and buried barrels of drug production substances sounds like an OC connection to me, or at the very least, OC competition.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

I thought the same thing as well and voiced it back when the pics came out. Why would he be using the excavator and bobcat in the winter out in a swamp area? Can't imagine it was for legal purposes.

Hope this helps.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9799461&postcount=882"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9799461&postcount=882[/ame]

 

[Alethea Dice]

<rsbm>

Hard to say without an area code, but that phone number combined with O'Connell Excavation seem to match up with an excavation/septic company in Weedsport, New York:

http://www.google.ca/#q=252-0705+o'connell+excavation&start=30

Why would they have an excavator from NY?

I remember looking this up what seems like a long time ago. They are a subsidiary of Bird. Does this help?

http://www.bird.ca/News-and-Media/news-12.html#Company/Company-overview.html

 

[Murphys_Law]

Originally Posted by Murphys_Law
PS:
Here's a link to the tweet and photo:
@trevorjdunn: Neighbour of Dellen Millard says a swampy area of Bosma murder suspect's farm was being excavated this winter. http://twitter.com/trevorjdunn/statu...224192/photo/1

<rsbm>

Hard to say without an area code, but that phone number combined with O'Connell Excavation seem to match up with an excavation/septic company in Weedsport, New York:

http://www.google.ca/#q=252-0705+o'connell+excavation&start=30

Why would they have an excavator from NY?

Very good observation and question SillyBilly, for which I have no good answer.

Is the neighbour telling a fib?...not likely, nevertheless possible.

Weedsport, is approx 3 hr drive from Hamilton.
It could have been purchased as used equipment directly from O'connells, or indirectly through a used equipment trader.
It could have been stolen...unlikely because of border crossing issues.

 

[Sillybilly]

I remember looking this up what seems like a long time ago. They are a subsidiary of Bird. Does this help?

http://www.bird.ca/News-and-Media/news-12.html#Company/Company-overview.html

Thanks, but I don't see any connection between the Canadian company Bird and its subsidiary H. J. O'Connell Ltd and the O'Connell Excavation and Septic in Weedsport, New York that the phone number matches up with.

 

[redheart]

Excellent questions puppyraiser!

Re:Could DMV have buried any in the swamp area?

While studying the photo (snapped by the neighbour) of the yellow excavator in the swamp area , the thought that he was burying waste products from illicit drug production crossed my mind. In particular, the propane tanks, and other seemingly out of place albeit unidentifiable objects, cans etc in cardboard boxes surrounding the excavator led to believe something nefarious had been going on.

PS:
Here's a link to the tweet and photo:
@trevorjdunn: Neighbour of Dellen Millard says a swampy area of Bosma murder suspect's farm was being excavated this winter. http://twitter.com/trevorjdunn/status/334422275145224192/photo/1

Those propane tanks have propane heaters attached to them, so they weren't used to fuel anything, but for direct heat. Tracks on an excavator freeze up at that time of year and the propane heaters might have been used to free up the tracks (although a torch attached to a propane tank is more the norm) or the heaters were used as a heat source for whoever was working on fixing the excavator. MOO