General Discussion and Theories #4

[Tamarind]

Why would DM and MS not elect a trial judged by judge alone, on the same grounds, then?

It could be that CN is going to enter a plea and there is no good reason to elect a jury.

If she was going to plead guilty, I think she would have accepted a plea deal by now JMO. I think her lawyer may have suggested to go with a judge only and I think he may have made reference to a tainted jury pool. Also society these days tends to go with whatever media tells them, rather than think for themselves, and she may not like that idea. Choosing to take her chances that a judge may the best solution.

For all we know DM and MS may have no problem with a DI. Maybe they feel safer not having certain things put out there at this point for protection purposes. Just a guess, but we don't know for sure what they are thinking. JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Why would DM and MS not elect a trial judged by judge alone, on the same grounds, then?

It could be that CN is going to enter a plea and there is no good reason to elect a jury.

If CN is going to enter a plea, there would be no reason to have a trial either.

 

[MsSherlock]

Regardless of what the police might say, the Coroner reported that no remains of Laura Babcock have ever been examined in Ontario. If she in fact ended up in an incinerator, either the Coroner's office or the Police investigators are negligent, or mistaken, or not quite being honest, or all of the above.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...a_babcocks_body_not_recovered_in_ontario.html
CN herself requested she go directly to trial and skip the Preliminary Hearing, not an imposed decision from the AG.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...cessory-to-murder-goes-straight-to-trial.html

CN has now selected a judge over a jury, not surprising when you consider the fact that the media has probably tainted any potential jury. JMO Also, juries cost time and money, so in my opinion the justice system will nudge her and others in that direction . Again JMO

I read the Star article to say that CN has chosen a Judge and Jury- can't find anything to support CHCH's reporting that she's chosen Judge alone.

"The 22-year-old — accused of helping her boyfriend Dellen Millard to “escape” in some way on May 9, 2013 — elected to be tried by judge and jury."
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...cessory-to-murder-goes-straight-to-trial.html

 

[MsSherlock]

Why would DM and MS not elect a trial judged by judge alone, on the same grounds, then?

It could be that CN is going to enter a plea and there is no good reason to elect a jury.

Just a question to throw out there. Why would CN's trial be outside the DM & MS trial. I would somehow think that if CN was helping DM escape she may be called as a witness or something in DM's trial? No??? Just thinking out loud here, trying to figure out how this is all going to work.

I was thinking that maybe CN would have some info about what happened or perhaps had even talked. Does it make sense that if she had talked, worked out a deal and has turned into a witness for the crown that she wouldn't be tried at the same time rather the crown is waiting for her testimony at the DM trial before they can safely agree to a lesser sentence for her?

 

[swedie]

Interesting...still no article/report from CHCH. What's up with that? Must be because many MSMs aren't really interested in CN or this case any more. So much for the tainted jury assumption. :blushing:

Miranda A of CHCH also made mention of the date November 2nd, regarding CN, but I didn't catch what that was about. Next court appearance, pretrial motions to start? Perhaps DM's pretrial motions will be over by then and the judge will go right into CN's?

IMO CN wants to be tried by judge only because many judges typically do go lighter on sentencing then a jury. Although we do not know what CN's involvement was in TB's case, the judge went lightly on her by granting her bail. Anyone who fails to go to LE knowing someone was intentionally killed, and they know the murderer and facts, AND then they intentionally try to help the murderer escape from the law, along with not cooperating with LE, does not deserve bail. So yes, IMO the judge went light on CN by granting her bail. Certainly her lawyer has explained all the pros and cons of her two choices; tried by judge or jury. IMO yes, the judge went lightly on her by granting her bail, therefore she assumes the same will happen for her trial. For almost a year CN sat on what she knew, DM had murdered TB (according to LE) and her involvement. Had she not been arrested, I have no doubt she would still be mum on what she knows...and perhaps she still is. Here's hoping, if I am right, her assumption of trial by judge is wrong and the judge gives her the maximum sentence for her involvement and lack of cooperation. JMO.

Being as CN is an adult, she is likely getting legal aid if she does not have the funds to pay for her lawyer. Her parents are not responsible for paying her legal fees (other then her bail as they are her surety). CN and perhaps her parents had many months to figure all that business out before her arrest. CN sought out a lawyer long before her arrest.
ALL MOO.

Police allege Noudga knew Millard had killed Bosma and assisted in his “escape” last May 9, three days after Bosma disappeared, said Crown Attorney Tony Leitch.

Leitch said Noudga made a statement to police after she was arrested Thursday, but could not say whether she is being co-operative.

“We don’t usually arrest co-operating witnesses,” Leitch said.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...e_she_was_reported_missing_police_allege.html

On the very day Sharlene B was breaking our hearts with a plea for her husband's safe return, a young woman was allegedly helping her boyfriend get away with his murder.

It was Thursday, May 9, 2013.

Police allege that on that day, Christina Noudga knew her boyfriend, Dellen Millard — now accused of being a serial killer — had murdered Tim Bosma. At some time that day, she was doing something to help him escape a massive police search for the missing Ancaster family man and the two strangers he'd gone with three days earlier to test drive his truck.

Noudga has been on the radar of homicide investigators for quite a long time. A source close to the investigation has told The Spectator she retained criminal lawyer Paul Mergler of Toronto long before she was arrested Thursday and charged with being an accessory after the fact to murder.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...or-his-return-millard-was-allegedly-escaping/

 

[swedie]

I read the Star article to say that CN has chosen a Judge and Jury- can't find anything to support CHCH's reporting that she's chosen Judge alone.

"The 22-year-old — accused of helping her boyfriend Dellen Millard to “escape” in some way on May 9, 2013 — elected to be tried by judge and jury."
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...cessory-to-murder-goes-straight-to-trial.html

Yes I saw that article also MsSherlock but that is from February of this year. Miranda A of CHCH reported last night on the 11pm news, CN had made a court appearance Friday, October 23rd, along with her lawyer and mother and during that appearance her lawyer stated CN has chosen a trial by judge only. Miranda also made mention the date November 2nd, but I didn't catch the relevance to that date. There was also a video of CN and her mother walking arm in arm, to or away from the courthouse, both smiling. CN was wearing a coat with the hood up and sunglasses and her mother was wearing a head scarf and IIRC a jacket with the hood up also but no sunglasses. HTH and MOO.

 

[swedie]

No he was incinerated in an animal crematorium on a farm without a house, yard, or back yard.

And don't forget to include the other information Snooper. The farmland belonged to DM, the incinerator was ordered and paid for through Millardair, allegedly by an employee ordered it. This article according to a police officer, the incinerator was purchased by DM July 2012. Guess he signed the cheque or made the withdrawal for payment from the bank? And coincidently soon after LB disappeared. Regardless of who ordered and/or purchased it, apparently the incinerator was used by DM for nefarious reasons and not the purpose it was intended for. LE allege TB and LB were incinerated in the animal incinerator. MOO.

“An ‘Eliminator incinerator’ designed to dispose of livestock remains was purchased by Dellen Millard in July 2012,” said a police officer involved in the case. “We would like to know for what purpose he decided to make this purchase.”

Just imagine all the answers and evidence LE gathered through the seizure of many computers and cell phones belonging to and connected to this crew. :great:

They are also scouring through and trying to make sense of social media photographs, narcotics references, slang, TV shows, associations and nicknames and phrases to gain an understanding of what this group of people wanted in this slaying were up to.

“It’s a unique crew that travelled around together,” said the cop.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/16/police-investigate-incinerators-role-in-tim-bosma-slaying

Tony Leitch, the Hamilton Crown attorney prosecuting the Bosma case, says the project involves "one of the largest computer seizures in Ontario criminal law history."

After Millard and Smich were originally arrested, search warrants were executed to seize computers and cellphones which the OPP have analyzed, he says.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...ed-bosma-killer-s-girlfriend-was-incinerated/

"For a case this serious, this time frame is not unusual," says assistant Crown attorney Craig Fraser, who is handling the matter along with assistant Crown Tony Leitch.

Though little is happening publicly right now, behind the scenes police are continuing to investigate and the Crown and defence are reading mounds of information.

"There's a lot of volume in this case in terms of material and disclosure," says Fraser.

In the past, Leitch said the case involves "one of the largest computer seizures in Ontario criminal law history."

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...r-must-be-an-eternity-for-tim-bosma-s-family/

 

[swedie]

Why would DM and MS not elect a trial judged by judge alone, on the same grounds, then?

It could be that CN is going to enter a plea and there is no good reason to elect a jury.

Plea bargain perhaps? Trying to pull a KH? Witness for the Crown? Did she sign of the dotted line for the Crown stating she would be a witness for them and they could use her previous testimony or interview/interrogation video(s) in exchange for a light sentences? MOO.

 

[Tamarind]

I read the Star article to say that CN has chosen a Judge and Jury- can't find anything to support CHCH's reporting that she's chosen Judge alone.

"The 22-year-old — accused of helping her boyfriend Dellen Millard to “escape” in some way on May 9, 2013 — elected to be tried by judge and jury."
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...cessory-to-murder-goes-straight-to-trial.html

I think you quoted me by mistake. I wasn't the poster who claimed CN had opted for judge only. I think it was swedie. Maybe she has a link that originally said judge only.

update: I have just noticed that swedie has explained it herself above at post # 686.

 

[Tamarind]

Plea bargain perhaps? Trying to pull a KH? Witness for the Crown? Did she sign of the dotted line for the Crown stating she would be a witness for them and they could use her previous testimony or interview/interrogation video(s) in exchange for a light sentences? MOO.

I think that's highly unlikely. If she was going to take a plea bargain, she would have done so and not been in court scheduling a trial date and selecting a judge only for that trial. JMO

 

[Tamarind]

And don't forget to include the other information Snooper. The farmland belonged to DM, the incinerator was ordered and paid for through Millardair, allegedly by an employee ordered it. This article according to a police officer, the incinerator was purchased by DM July 2012. Guess he signed the cheque or made the withdrawal for payment from the bank? And coincidently soon after LB disappeared. Regardless of who ordered and/or purchased it, apparently the incinerator was used by DM for nefarious reasons and not the purpose it was intended for. LE allege TB and LB were incinerated in the animal incinerator. MOO.

I believe no one knows who actually ordered it. No-one knows who used it either as we have not been made aware of anything other than allegations by LE. LE also claim that LB was incinerated yet the Coroner stated that they had not been given any of her remains. IMO things will need to be backed up with a few facts before anyone can safely claim things to be truth and nothing but the truth IMHO

“An ‘Eliminator incinerator’ designed to dispose of livestock remains was purchased by Dellen Millard in July 2012,” said a police officer involved in the case. “We would like to know for what purpose he decided to make this purchase.”

Sounds like that officer was assuming it was DM based on that it was ordered by someone through Millardair.

Just imagine all the answers and evidence LE gathered through the seizure of many computers and cell phones belonging to and connected to this crew.

Personally I don't see much evidence being from any computer. As for cell phones I have a hunch some may help the defense judging by the lack of any evidence other than circumstantial/ But I guess we can only speculate until the trial. JMO

They are also scouring through and trying to make sense of social media photographs, narcotics references, slang, TV shows, associations and nicknames and phrases to gain an understanding of what this group of people wanted in this slaying were up to.

Which group would that be? Have we seen any evidence of a group or that a group is wanted?

“It’s a unique crew that travelled around together,” said the cop.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/16/police-investigate-incinerators-role-in-tim-bosma-slaying

Tony Leitch, the Hamilton Crown attorney prosecuting the Bosma case, says the project involves "one of the largest computer seizures in Ontario criminal law history."

Makes you wonder how small any ring computer seizures are. IMO

After Millard and Smich were originally arrested, search warrants were executed to seize computers and cellphones which the OPP have analyzed, he says.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...ed-bosma-killer-s-girlfriend-was-incinerated/

It would make sense to analyze computers but it doesn't mean there was anything of great importance IMO

"For a case this serious, this time frame is not unusual," says assistant Crown attorney Craig Fraser, who is handling the matter along with assistant Crown Tony Leitch.

Though little is happening publicly right now, behind the scenes police are continuing to investigate and the Crown and defence are reading mounds of information.

"There's a lot of volume in this case in terms of material and disclosure," says Fraser.

You would think they had finished investigating if they are sure they have the right people. JMO

 

[Tamarind]

Interesting...still no article/report from CHCH. What's up with that? Must be because many MSMs aren't really interested in CN or this case any more. So much for the tainted jury assumption. :blushing:

Miranda A of CHCH also made mention of the date November 2nd, regarding CN, but I didn't catch what that was about. Next court appearance, pretrial motions to start? Perhaps DM's pretrial motions will be over by then and the judge will go right into CN's?

IMO CN wants to be tried by judge only because many judges typically do go lighter on sentencing then a jury. Although we do not know what CN's involvement was in TB's case, the judge went lightly on her by granting her bail. Anyone who fails to go to LE knowing someone was intentionally killed, and they know the murderer and facts, AND then they intentionally try to help the murderer escape from the law, along with not cooperating with LE, does not deserve bail. So yes, IMO the judge went light on CN by granting her bail.

The constitution sets limits for bail. The judge obviously felt she met the requirement, and felt she deserved bail ! Maybe he doubts the strength of the case, JMO. I dont see that it is typical of judges to go lighter than juries.

Certainly her lawyer has explained all the pros and cons of her two choices; tried by judge or jury. IMO yes, the judge went lightly on her by granting her bail, therefore she assumes the same will happen for her trial. For almost a year CN sat on what she knew, DM had murdered TB (according to LE) and her involvement.

Lawyers do explain about judge only and judge and jury trials. They also recommend. The can also suggest that jurors are often tainted. They also interact with judges and CN may have been advised to go with a judge as it's easier and quicker for the system. I doubt that she was told that though. IMHO. In her case she may well be better off with a judge as in my opinion the public have been given scant and bias information via the media. JMO

Had she not been arrested, I have no doubt she would still be mum on what she knows...and perhaps she still is. Here's hoping, if I am right, her assumption of trial by judge is wrong and the judge gives her the maximum sentence for her involvement and lack of cooperation. JMO.

I cant imagine wishing for someone to be given a maximum sentence with having heard the details and evidence at a trial, I would just like to hear some evidence that is convincing, one way or the other.

Being as CN is an adult, she is likely getting legal aid if she does not have the funds to pay for her lawyer. Her parents are not responsible for paying her legal fees (other then her bail as they are her surety). CN and perhaps her parents had many months to figure all that business out before her arrest. CN sought out a lawyer long before her arrest.
ALL MOO.

I believe she was living with her parents. If that's the case, she won't get legal aid and they could be the ones paying the lawyers.

Police allege Noudga knew Millard had killed Bosma and assisted in his “escape” last May 9, three days after Bosma disappeared, said Crown Attorney Tony Leitch.

Leitch said Noudga made a statement to police after she was arrested Thursday, but could not say whether she is being co-operative.

“We don’t usually arrest co-operating witnesses,” Leitch said.

So anyone stating their right to remain silent is arrested it seems.

Noudga has been on the radar of homicide investigators for quite a long time. A source close to the investigation has told The Spectator she retained criminal lawyer Paul Mergler of Toronto long before she was arrested Thursday and charged with being an accessory after the fact to murder.[/I]

Sounds like CN was being followed and knew it , so lawyered herself up. Can't say I blame her.

RSBM

 

[swedie]

I think that's highly unlikely. If she was going to take a plea bargain, she would have done so and not been in court scheduling a trial date and selecting a judge only for that trial. JMO

Why unlikely, how so? If she just recently decided being tried by judge only, and it was just announced in court Friday, nothing unlikely about that. Do you know if she was scheduling a trial date and selecting a judge as you claim? CN has quite a bit of time still to change her mind. She could even plead guilty during the trial if she wanted to. BTW she does not get to select the judge for her trial. :shush: HTH.

This article of Plea Bargaining is quite interesting. Perhaps the Crown didn't or isn't even going to consider a plea bargain for CN. Perhaps they have sufficient evidence on CN to know they don't need her testimony in exchange for a deal. And perhaps they want her to get the maximum sentence, just as the Crown didn't want her to get bail. TWT and MOO

Criminal defendants may also benefit from plea bargaining. Plea agreements provide quick relief from the anxiety of criminal prosecution because they shorten the prosecution process. Furthermore, plea agreements usually give defendants less punishment than they would receive if they were found guilty of all charges after a full trial.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Plea+Bargaining

 

[swedie]

I believe no one knows who actually ordered it. No-one knows who used it either as we have not been made aware of anything other than allegations by LE. LE also claim that LB was incinerated yet the Coroner stated that they had not been given any of her remains. IMO things will need to be backed up with a few facts before anyone can safely claim things to be truth and nothing but the truth IMHO



Sounds like that officer was assuming it was DM based on that it was ordered by someone through Millardair.



Personally I don't see much evidence being from any computer. As for cell phones I have a hunch some may help the defense judging by the lack of any evidence other than circumstantial/ But I guess we can only speculate until the trial. JMO



Which group would that be? Have we seen any evidence of a group or that a group is wanted?



Makes you wonder how small any ring computer seizures are. IMO



It would make sense to analyze computers but it doesn't mean there was anything of great importance IMO



You would think they had finished investigating if they are sure they have the right people. JMO

I do believe the Crown and defense along with DM know exactly who ordered, paid and used the incinerator, along with the intended purpose it was ordered for, delivered to DM's farmland shortly after LB's disappearance. There are other means to determine some one was murdered when LE don't have a body. HTH.

Because of the PB, of course we're not privy to the computer evidence at this time. I have no idea who that group is, but LE knows. Perhaps we will find many of that group being paraded to take the stand for the Crown. Doesn't mean they were involved in the murders, just that they may have information/evidence to share with the court. MOO.

 

[Tamarind]

Why unlikely, how so? If she just recently decided being tried by judge only, and it was just announced in court Friday, nothing unlikely about that. Do you know if she was scheduling a trial date and selecting a judge as you claim? CN has quite a bit of time still to change her mind. She could even plead guilty during the trial if she wanted to. BTW she does not get to select the judge for her trial. :shush: HTH.

If she were taking a plea bargain she would not not a trial.

 

[Tamarind]

I do believe the Crown and defense along with DM know exactly who ordered, paid and used the incinerator, along with the intended purpose it was ordered for, delivered to DM's farmland shortly after LB's disappearance. There are other means to determine some one was murdered when LE don't have a body. HTH.

Because of the PB, of course we're not privy to the computer evidence at this time. I have no idea who that group is, but LE knows. Perhaps we will find many of that group being paraded to take the stand for the Crown. Doesn't mean they were involved in the murders, just that they may have information/evidence to share with the court. MOO.

The prosecution often implies that they know something when in fact it is speculation and inferences that are brought to the trial. IMHO

 

[swedie]

The constitution sets limits for bail. The judge obviously felt she met the requirement, and felt she deserved bail ! Maybe he doubts the strength of the case, JMO. I dont see that it is typical of judges to go lighter than juries.




Lawyers do explain about judge only and judge and jury trials. They also recommend. The can also suggest that jurors are often tainted. They also interact with judges and CN may have been advised to go with a judge as it's easier and quicker for the system. I doubt that she was told that though. IMHO. In her case she may well be better off with a judge as in my opinion the public have been given scant and bias information via the media. JMO




I cant imagine wishing for someone to be given a maximum sentence with having heard the details and evidence at a trial, I would just like to hear some evidence that is convincing, one way or the other.



I believe she was living with her parents. If that's the case, she won't get legal aid and they could be the ones paying the lawyers.



So anyone stating their right to remain silent is arrested it seems.



Sounds like CN was being followed and knew it , so lawyered herself up. Can't say I blame her.

RSBM

Perhaps the judge allowed CN bail so she could finish her studies on hers or her parent's own dime instead of taxpayers' dimes while she was in custody. Maybe the judge believed by releasing her, she would slip up and produce or lead LE to more evidence related to these cases.

FYI just because she was/is living with her parents, does not mean they are liable to pay her legal fees. She was legally considered an adult as soon as she reached the age of 18, and is legally responsible for paying for her own defense. If she cannot afford her own defense, legal representation will be appointed to her. She may not have went to PH originally. He could be her court appointed lawyer, of course, unless by chance PH also does legal aid cases.

Yes...we could come up with a million and one excuses and opinions, but in the end, none of them will change the facts and evidence of the case no matter how hard one tries. All the victims in these cases deserve nothing but justice. Justice will come when the guilty are put away in a tiny prison cell for a long, long, time, if not the rest of their lives. HTH and MOO.

Also, BBM there is a difference between remaining silent and cooperating. The ultimate word TL used was cooperate. JMO.

 

[swedie]

If she were taking a plea bargain she would not not a trial.

As of yesterday, her and her defense could be working on considering a plea bargain from the Crown or trying to hash something out with the Crown...no?
MOO.

 

[swedie]

The prosecution often implies that they know something when in fact it is speculation and inferences that are brought to the trial. IMHO

Speculation on my part, but it appears the Crown has enough evidence to request and then be granted by the AG, allowing them to bypass the PH. HTH. Oh btw...it's a very rare move. MOO.

Skipping the preliminary trial is a rare legal move in Ontario.

According to a Crown policy manual on the Ministry of the Attorney General's website, "this power is an extraordinary one and is used infrequently."

The final decision on proceeding directly to trial rests with the attorney general or the deputy attorney general.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...-to-trial-in-death-of-laura-babcock-1.3225820

Included in this link is a video of the AG's statement. HTH.

Ravin Pillay, one of Millard’s lawyers, says that the Crown is proceeding by direct indictment in the case, a rare move that means there will be no preliminary inquiry.

Preliminary hearings are held to test evidence and determine whether there is enough to commit the case to trial.

http://www.citynews.ca/2014/07/16/millard-smich-proceeding-directly-to-trial-in-tim-bosma-death/

 

[Sillybilly]

Why would DM and MS not elect a trial judged by judge alone, on the same grounds, then?

It could be that CN is going to enter a plea and there is no good reason to elect a jury.

In all provinces (except Alberta) it is compulsory that murder trials be before a jury (unless the accused and the Attorney General consent to judge alone):

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-240.html#docCont

Trial without jury

473. (1) Notwithstanding anything in this Act, an accused charged with an offence listed in section 469 may, with the consent of the accused and the Attorney General, be tried without a jury by a judge of a superior court of criminal jurisdiction.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-239.html#docCont

469. Every court of criminal jurisdiction has jurisdiction to try an indictable offence other than

(a) an offence under any of the following sections:

(i) section 47 (treason),
(ii) section 49 (alarming Her Majesty),
(iii) section 51 (intimidating Parliament or a legislature),
(iv) section 53 (inciting to mutiny),
(v) section 61 (seditious offences),
(vi) section 74 (piracy),
(vii) section 75 (piratical acts), or
(viii) section 235 (murder);

Why would CN enter a plea to being an accessory prior to DM's trial when there is a chance DM could ultimately be found NG of murder (in which case, charges against CN would be withdrawn as she could only be found NG of being an accessory to DM)? Maybe this is some of the legal wrangling in her case, getting her trial postponed until a verdict is reached in his case.