General Discussion and Theories #4

[SnooperDuper]

Section 11b applies to ALL charges. It is a CHARTER right. It is not there for the purpose of just traffic court. No-one is suggesting that DM or MS's ( not sure why it's only DM that gets brought up all the time) team are seeking to use Section 11b. The point of raising the issue was to explain an opinion as to why DI''s are in place ! HTH

Well I don't agree with you. I think the DI's are in place because there is strong evidence that the accused will become convicted. I don't think it has anything to to with the timing or speed at which they get to trial. I also think the DI's were issued to control the amount of publicity around at least two of the trials.

 

[SnooperDuper]

He said not to do a Bail REVIEW. This would be after he had been refused bail already. He could have been bailed on his own recognizance had he had sufficient funds, IF the court agreed. He probably knew it would not be agreed to as there were heavy charges around his neck. Therefore no point in getting a review ( which costs at least $3,000 ) to be told he couldn't be released for some reason. So he obviously stuck it out hoping that justice would prevail and he would get out.

We have no idea whether there are reasons to drop DM/MS charges, when someone is stuck in the system they can't get out that easily, as the link proves. HTH

So you're telling me the way to get justice is to wait, wait, wait and hope you can get your case tossed out under Section 11b?

Novel defense, DM.

 

[Tamarind]

So you're telling me the way to get justice is to wait, wait, wait and hope you can get your case tossed out under Section 11b?

Novel defense, DM.

???? :facepalm: :shakehead:

 

[Alethea Dice]

How frustrating to read the intent and meaning of someone's posts constantly being twisted for the sake of argument. Of course, no one wants to see charges stayed because of unnecessary delays. It's not good for the victims, or the victims' families, or the public, or the system, or even the wrongfully accused who never get their cases resolved. The only ones it can possibly be okay for are those who are guilty, and those are the last ones who should be freed. But the fact remains that the increasing delays in cases going to trial by not doing something to fix the backlog in Canadian courts does make that Charter right a possible threat to seeing justice eventually happen.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Yeah, a lot of people get out of traffic tickets using section 11b.

Somehow I think first degree murder is a more serious charge, and the Crown would not throw out these charges frivolously without allowing enough time for both a thorough investigation, full disclosure, and full preparation on behalf of the legal teams.

I think DM's team smacks of desperation if they think he's going to get off on a procedural technicality. I guess it's their only real hope...

Traffic tickets???

Raping, unlawful confinement and threatening to kill his ex-girlfriend - trial set for 2 1/2 years after being charged...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/top-court-rules-ont-man-s-right-to-speedy-trial-violated-1.814224

Drug charges against 31 members of Hells Angels...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/31-hells-angels-linked-drug-cases-dropped-in-que-1.1087912

Extortion, another Hells Angel...

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Nanaimo+Hells+Angel+sees+criminal+charges+stayed+after+court+delays/8477653/story.html

Five more Hells Angels, murder and conspiracy...

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/2015/10/09/5-hells-angels-members-freed-over-murder-trial-evidence-delays

Criminal organization, another one (these guys seem to be fans of this Charter right)...

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Criminal+organization+charge+stayed+against+East+Hells/7465106/story.html

Drug trafficking...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/court-interpreter-cambodian-delays-charges-dropped-1.3232943

Six more in BC, various charges...

http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=b178c663-435b-4df6-8012-ec8da71a4863

Conspiracy to import cocaine...

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/charges-dropped-against-accused-drug-kingpin-due-to-nearly-decade-long-delay-1.2027141

Of course, the "reasonable" time to get to trial varies depending on different things, such as what the charges are, the complexity of the case, the reasons for the delays, etc. But, from the first case linked for the sexual assault, unlawful confinement and threatening to kill .....

In the Supreme Court's decision released Thursday, Justice Thomas Cromwell wrote that the delay was striking and far exceeded what the top court has established as an acceptable timeline of 12 to 18 months.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/top-court-rules-ont-man-s-right-to-speedy-trial-violated-1.814224

Interesting that the delays in that case were the fault of the Crown in providing disclosure. Also that, after the delays, the DNA sample didn't match the accused.

 

[Tamarind]

Traffic tickets???

Raping, unlawful confinement and threatening to kill his ex-girlfriend - trial set for 2 1/2 years after being charged...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/top-court-rules-ont-man-s-right-to-speedy-trial-violated-1.814224

Drug charges against 31 members of Hells Angels...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/31-hells-angels-linked-drug-cases-dropped-in-que-1.1087912

Extortion, another Hells Angel...

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Nanaimo+Hells+Angel+sees+criminal+charges+stayed+after+court+delays/8477653/story.html

Five more Hells Angels, murder and conspiracy...

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/2015/10/09/5-hells-angels-members-freed-over-murder-trial-evidence-delays

Criminal organization, another one (these guys seem to be fans of this Charter right)...

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Criminal+organization+charge+stayed+against+East+Hells/7465106/story.html

Drug trafficking...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/court-interpreter-cambodian-delays-charges-dropped-1.3232943

Six more in BC, various charges...

http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=b178c663-435b-4df6-8012-ec8da71a4863

Conspiracy to import cocaine...

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/charges-dropped-against-accused-drug-kingpin-due-to-nearly-decade-long-delay-1.2027141

Of course, the "reasonable" time to get to trial varies depending on different things, such as what the charges are, the complexity of the case, the reasons for the delays, etc. But, from the first case linked for the sexual assault, unlawful confinement and threatening to kill .....



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/top-court-rules-ont-man-s-right-to-speedy-trial-violated-1.814224

Interesting that the delays in that case were the fault of the Crown in providing disclosure. Also that, after the delays, the DNA sample didn't match the accused.

just thought I'd add this one to the list AD.

http://www.theobserver.ca/2014/03/0...kilos-of-cocaine-across-the-blue-water-bridge

''The Supreme Court has set 14 to 18 months as the time frame to bring a case to trial.
Donohue said his analysis set this delay at nearly 29 months or twice the time set by the Supreme Court.''

 

[swedie]

IMO the solid evidence and seriousness of this crime, TB's murder, will far outweigh a complaint from the accused that their right to a speedy trial has been denied. Here are some Canadian murder cases, approximations of time frames between arrest and trial. HTH. MOO.

D Millard and M Smich
- Arrested May 2013, scheduled trial date. January 2016. 2 years, 8 months.

P Bernardo
- Arrested February 1993. Trial August 1995. 2 years, 6 months.

R Pickton
- Arrested February 2002. Trial January 2007. 4 years, 11 months.

M Rafferty
- Arrested May 2009. Trial March 2012. Two years, 10 months.

L Magnotta
- Arrested June 2012. Trial September 2014. 2 years, 3 months.

C Legebokoff
- Arrested November 2010. Trial June 2014. 3 years, almost 7 months.

I calculated the mean based on the above six cases and the finding is 3 years, 8 months. I came to the same mean leaving out DM and MS's case. This case is ahead of the game. It appears the accused don't have a leg to stand on if they file complaining their right to a timely trial has been violated. Even if their trail was bumped up a few months or so past the January date, IMO it wouldn't hold water for them.

Just to note, LM was afforded a Preliminary Hearing. How the heck did that happen? :freakedout: Considering the Crown had the best solid evidence against him, the murder video, his confession, plus, plus, plus, sheesh. IMO LM's PH was a waste of time and taxpayers money (and his trial). But at least he cannot say he didn't get a fair trial. Oh wait, he did...but later withdrew his appeals. Perhaps he's content and has now settled nicely into his new home even without his on-line dating account.

Reflecting on the solid evidence in the LM case and the fact he had a PH, it really makes one feel pretty darn confident in the Crown and AG's ruling, that the Crown has some indisputable and damaging evidence against the accused and perhaps spending up the court process, suggestive reasonings behind the DI. TWT and ALL MOO. :waiting:

Earlier today, the court heard Magnotta has admitted to the acts underlying the five criminal offences he's charged with, including the killing of 33-year-old university student JL, but has pleaded not guilty, claiming he is not criminally responsible because of mental illness.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...so-found-in-trash-outside-apartment-1.2781112

A personal ad featuring convicted killer Luka Rocco Magnotta has been removed at his request from a matchmaking website for lonely prisoners — after the site’s creator said she received a letter saying he found what he “was looking for.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...eaves-controversial-prisoner-dating-site.html

 

[swedie]

So you're telling me the way to get justice is to wait, wait, wait and hope you can get your case tossed out under Section 11b?

Novel defense, DM.

Snooper, sounds like a tactic some defense lawyers would use. Boy if that was the case, we'd be in serious trouble...oh bother and sheesh. :floorlaugh: :blowkiss: JMO.

 

[swedie]

Uh, this guy spent 8 months in jail, not four years. Part of the reason he was not bailed earlier is that his family would not support him and take him in. What the heck does this have to do with DM?

BBM - There just might just be a connection Snooper. TWT :underbus: :hilarious:
JK and MOO.

 

[swedie]

Off topic a bit, but DP is neither sick nor out of commission...back to work on another guns and drugs trial...

http://www.mississauga.com/news-sto...nal-gun-and-drug-smuggling-ring-granted-bail/

That's a hefty bust! Nice tactical excuse for getting your client bail. Maybe if DM had attended church most Sunday mornings instead of sleeping in, DP could have gotten him bail. MOO.

“Mr. Brown comes from a deeply religious family and is very grateful for getting the chance to be back with his wife and four children,” Brown’s defence lawyer Deepak Paradkar said.

http://www.mississauga.com/news-sto...nal-gun-and-drug-smuggling-ring-granted-bail/

 

[Tamarind]

IMO the solid evidence and seriousness of this crime, TB's murder, will far outweigh a complaint from the accused that their right to a speedy trial has been denied. Here are some Canadian murder cases, approximations of time frames between arrest and trial. HTH. MOO.

D Millard and M Smich
- Arrested May 2013, scheduled trial date. January 2016. 2 years, 8 months.

P Bernardo
- Arrested February 1993. Trial August 1995. 2 years, 6 months.

R Pickton
- Arrested February 2002. Trial January 2007. 4 years, 11 months.

M Rafferty
- Arrested May 2009. Trial March 2012. Two years, 10 months.

L Magnotta
- Arrested June 2012. Trial September 2014. 2 years, 3 months.

C Legebokoff
- Arrested November 2010. Trial June 2014. 3 years, almost 7 months.

I calculated the mean based on the above six cases and the finding is 3 years, 8 months.I came to the same mean leaving out DM and MS's case. This case is ahead of the game. It appears the accused don't have a leg to stand on if they file complaining their right to a timely trial has been violated. Even if their trail was bumped up a few months or so past the January date, IMO it wouldn't hold water for them.

Just to note, LM was afforded a Preliminary Hearing. How the heck did that happen? Considering the Crown had the best solid evidence against him, the murder video, his confession, plus, plus, plus, sheesh. IMO LM's PH was a waste of time and taxpayers money (and his trial). But at least he cannot say he didn't get a fair trial. Oh wait, he did...but later withdrew his appeals. Perhaps he's content and has now settled nicely into his new home even without his on-line dating account.

Reflecting on the solid evidence in the LM case and the fact he had a PH, it really makes one feel pretty darn confident in the Crown and AG's ruling, that the Crown has some indisputable and damaging evidence against the accused and perhaps spending up the court process, suggestive reasonings behind the DI. TWT and ALL MOO.

Earlier today, the court heard Magnotta has admitted to the acts underlying the five criminal offences he's charged with, including the killing of 33-year-old university student JL but has pleaded not guilty, claiming he is not criminally responsible because of mental illness.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...so-found-in-trash-outside-apartment-1.2781112

A personal ad featuring convicted killer Luka Rocco Magnotta has been removed at his request from a matchmaking website for lonely prisoners — after the site’s creator said she received a letter saying he found what he “was looking for.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...eaves-controversial-prisoner-dating-site.html

R Pickton - Multiple murders. This case should have began in 1997 IMHO when he was charged with attempted murder. That case was dismissed !! Many things were overlooked in this case and due to sloppy police work nothing was looked into until several years later. No doubt for his subsequent murder trial LE and the crown had to go over everything they either missed or ignored, in order to produce their case/disclosure. The magnitude of what had been ignored was probably part of the reason for the lengthy time involved for the case. I think these matters were probably addressed in court and given leniency based on it all. Murders could have been prevented had this guy been stopped when LE first came across him in 1997. IMO

P. Bernardo - Multiple murders /rapes. This guy was raping girls since 1987 at least and even when police had the opportunity to investigate him they didn't. Another sloppy police work case IMO. When the prosecution has years of uninvestigated multiple crimes to sort through, I think it again supports the length of time involved. The sloppy police work from 1987 is not acceptable and had he been properly investigated when they had the opportunity, the murders may have been prevented IMO.



C Legebokoff - Multiple murders, accused admitted involvement. Caught red handed.

L Magnotta - Captured on surveillance mailing severed body parts and disposing of body parts. Admitted to the crimes based on diminished responsibility.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Traffic tickets???

Raping, unlawful confinement and threatening to kill his ex-girlfriend - trial set for 2 1/2 years after being charged...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/top-court-rules-ont-man-s-right-to-speedy-trial-violated-1.814224

Of course the DNA didn't match, but that's no reason to throw out a case, is it? It must have been SOLELY the time delay.

Drug charges against 31 members of Hells Angels...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/31-hells-angels-linked-drug-cases-dropped-in-que-1.1087912

Make that drug charges against 156 members of the Hells Angels...only 31 of which over 17 years that didn't make it to trial

The 31 defendants were among 156 people targeted in Operation Sharqc, a police investigation into biker gang-related murders and drug dealing across the Eastern Seaboard that took 17 years to complete.

Extortion, another Hells Angel...

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Nanaimo+Hells+Angel+sees+criminal+charges+stayed+after+court+delays/8477653/story.html

Only 1 of 4 defendants had his charges stayed, as he could have has his case severed and proceeded with it sooner.

Five more Hells Angels, murder and conspiracy...

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/2015/10/09/5-hells-angels-members-freed-over-murder-trial-evidence-delays

These are some of the same 156 guys picked up in an earlier sweep

Criminal organization, another one (these guys seem to be fans of this Charter right)...

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Criminal+organization+charge+stayed+against+East+Hells/7465106/story.html

Crown decided it was no longer in the public interest to proceed because they guy was already sentenced prison for a long time anyway.

Drug trafficking...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/court-interpreter-cambodian-delays-charges-dropped-1.3232943

Trouble finding an accredited Cambodian interpreter, can't wait to hear how this is relevant to the DM case.

Six more in BC, various charges...

http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=b178c663-435b-4df6-8012-ec8da71a4863

No details provided

Conspiracy to import cocaine...

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/charges-dropped-against-accused-drug-kingpin-due-to-nearly-decade-long-delay-1.2027141

A British Columbia provincial court judge has stayed charges against an accused drug kingpin because Canadian officials made no move to have him extradited in the nine years he was in India.

Of course, the "reasonable" time to get to trial varies depending on different things, such as what the charges are, the complexity of the case, the reasons for the delays, etc. But, from the first case linked for the sexual assault, unlawful confinement and threatening to kill .....



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/top-court-rules-ont-man-s-right-to-speedy-trial-violated-1.814224

Interesting that the delays in that case were the fault of the Crown in providing disclosure. Also that, after the delays, the DNA sample didn't match the accused.

I can't really see how the situations named above are relevant to the DM case.

 

[Tamarind]

Of course the DNA didn't match, but that's no reason to throw out a case, is it? It must have been SOLELY the time delay.

Yes non matching DNA is a reason to throw out a case, ask GPM.

Make that drug charges against 156 members of the Hells Angels...only 31 of which over 17 years that didn't make it to trial
Only 1 of 4 defendants had his charges stayed, as he could have has his case severed and proceeded with it sooner.
These are some of the same 156 guys picked up in an earlier sweep
Crown decided it was no longer in the public interest to proceed because they guy was already sentenced prison for a long time anyway.
Trouble finding an accredited Cambodian interpreter, can't wait to hear how this is relevant to the DM case.
No details provided

The links were to give examples of STAYED cases due to time !! Thats all !

I can't really see how the situations named above are relevant to the DM case.

I think that should read DM and MS case. It relates insofar as we were discussing time, DI's and right to speedy trial, we were discussing that until the discussion somehow got sidetracked by obtuse argument. IMO JMO

 

[matou]

Oh bother! JMO.....................

 

[Alethea Dice]

Of course the DNA didn't match, but that's no reason to throw out a case, is it? It must have been SOLELY the time delay.

It certainly should have, but apparently it didn't. All it did was cause more delays according to the article.

Make that drug charges against 156 members of the Hells Angels...only 31 of which over 17 years that didn't make it to trial


Only 1 of 4 defendants had his charges stayed, as he could have has his case severed and proceeded with it sooner.

These are some of the same 156 guys picked up in an earlier sweep

Crown decided it was no longer in the public interest to proceed because they guy was already sentenced prison for a long time anyway.

So, what's your point? There were still all stayed because of delays.

Trouble finding an accredited Cambodian interpreter, can't wait to hear how this is relevant to the DM case.


No details provided


I can't really see how the situations named above are relevant to the DM case.

Hard to believe they can't easily find a Cambodian interpreter, or for any language, in Canada.

Since the discussion was about trial delays and Charter rights, these cases are just as relevant to the discussion as any posts about DM's ex-lawyer's new client, or Michael Rafferty, or Paul Bernardo, or any number of other cases that have been mentioned throughout the various threads.

 

[Alethea Dice]

L Magnotta - Captured on surveillance mailing severed body parts and disposing of body parts. Admitted to the crimes based on diminished responsibility.

<rsbm>

Pretty sad that it still takes over 2 years to go to trial when the accused admits to the crime and the only question is whether his mental disorders qualified him as not responsible.

 

[swedie]

R Pickton - Multiple murders. This case should have began in 1997 IMHO when he was charged with attempted murder. That case was dismissed !! Many things were overlooked in this case and due to sloppy police work nothing was looked into until several years later. No doubt for his subsequent murder trial LE and the crown had to go over everything they either missed or ignored, in order to produce their case/disclosure. The magnitude of what had been ignored was probably part of the reason for the lengthy time involved for the case. I think these matters were probably addressed in court and given leniency based on it all. Murders could have been prevented had this guy been stopped when LE first came across him in 1997. IMO

P. Bernardo - Multiple murders /rapes. This guy was raping girls since 1987 at least and even when police had the opportunity to investigate him they didn't. Another sloppy police work case IMO. When the prosecution has years of uninvestigated multiple crimes to sort through, I think it again supports the length of time involved. The sloppy police work from 1987 is not acceptable and had he been properly investigated when they had the opportunity, the murders may have been prevented IMO.



C Legebokoff - Multiple murders, accused admitted involvement. Caught red handed.

L Magnotta - Captured on surveillance mailing severed body parts and disposing of body parts. Admitted to the crimes based on diminished responsibility.

Interesting observation and point Tamarind. All these men committed multiple murders, were all found guilty of first degree murder, minus LM on multiple murders. Of course unless we're counting the animal killings but obviously the court wasn't. Who knows, maybe LM had other human victims also that no one knows about. I guess the same could apply to all these murderers. Oh and DM and MS, they haven't had their trail yet, where the others have. That doesn't make them not guilty though. Because we are a fair and legal society with laws and penalties, we'll have to wait about six more months for the judicial system to make the official ruling. MOO.

 

[swedie]

<rsbm>

Pretty sad that it still takes over 2 years to go to trial when the accused admits to the crime and the only question is whether his mental disorders qualified him as not responsible.

Better safe than sorry I've always believed. Better than rushing to judgement and ending up with a wrongful conviction. If the accused murderer is guilty, what's their loss? They aren't going anywhere for some time or perhaps the rest of their life and/or they are compensated for time already served. If the accused is innocent, they will be handsomely be compensated also. MOO.

 

[Sillybilly]

IMO, talk about Charter challenges are premature.

If MS applied for bail I can't find anything on it. DM didn't apply for bail, so in that respect he failed to mitigate his time spent in jail awaiting trial. IF there was to be a Charter challenge down the road, I think the Crown would be able to justify based on there being "one of the largest computer seizures in Ontario criminal law history" (from: http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...ed-bosma-killer-s-girlfriend-was-incinerated/)

There have been longer delays and each case is unique. In the cases at hand, given the complexity and length of time it would have taken LE/Crown to review and investigate such a massive seizure, add time involved for review by the defence team, I don't think it would be perceived as an unreasonable delay.

JMO

 

[Tamarind]

IMO, talk about Charter challenges are premature.

If MS applied for bail I can't find anything on it. DM didn't apply for bail, so in that respect he failed to mitigate his time spent in jail awaiting trial. IF there was to be a Charter challenge down the road, I think the Crown would be able to justify based on there being "one of the largest computer seizures in Ontario criminal law history" (from: http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...ed-bosma-killer-s-girlfriend-was-incinerated/)

There have been longer delays and each case is unique. In the cases at hand, given the complexity and length of time it would have taken LE/Crown to review and investigate such a massive seizure, add time involved for review by the defence team, I don't think it would be perceived as an unreasonable delay.

JMO

I don't think it's premature to discuss Charter challenges as we go into the third year with a case. Thats JMO. There are many reasons to not apply for bail as with the case I linked to earlier. However, if someone feels safer staying inside a jail they must have good reason for doing so IMO.

I am interested in this allegedly large computer seizure, but I don't see that it will be too much of a factor. I think it may be more MillardAir business on the computers, which makes me wonder about the type of warrant (s) used to seize them.

If it is MillardAir information in the computers, it may be time wasted that has caused delay. Do we have any idea of the type of warrant(s) used when they entered the Millard home/hangar after DM was arrested?