General Discussion Thread #1 -Bail Hearing

[Carol70]

Thank you, Carol70.

So then it seems he is saying he was panicked about a sound in the bathroom, panicked enough to shout at Reeva to call police and to arm himself with a gun, even before he realized the bathroom window was open. That concerns me greatly. If someone is spending the night, it is a reasonable assumption that they will use the restroom during the night. Unless someone has a mental illness that causes them to be paranoid, or unless they have taken a substance that causes them to be paranoid, it does not make sense that they would jump to the conclusion of an intruder in the toilet when someone is spending the night and is locked in a small space with them (bedroom and bathroom). Especially given his assertion that he knew the bedroom door was locked. If he didn't know the window was open until after he went to the bathroom with a gun, it is one less reason for him to have assumed there was an intruder when he retrieved his gun, in my opinion.

Now, if the defense was arguing that he has mental illness or was high on some substance, I would see this somewhat differently, but they seem to be claiming he had a natural reaction to a reasonable assumption of an intruder, so I think it makes a difference whether he discovered the open window before or after he went to the bathroom with a loaded gun.

All of the above is just my opinion.

Good point, I hadn't thought of that! For all we know, if that window was closed...we wouldn't be here talking about this case at all and Reeva would be alive. It's possible that window being open triggered his already paranoid mind.

 

[Zinn]

Also known as baby dolls, and the tops now look like vests my daughter wears them in the summer, they are little shorts with vest type tops.

I would very much like the prosecution to clarify this. They have said part of their case against Oscar is that Reeva was "dressed" and Oscar's lawyer argued that just because she was dressed, it doesn't mean she couldn't have dressed herself for the purpose of going to the bathroom. These statements lead me to infer she was wearing street clothes, or at the very least she was wearing clothes that differed from those she slept in that evening. But I would very much like confirmation of this rather than just having to infer it.

JMO.

 

[Carol70]

She might have had an argument with him, dressed and planned to leave him. He may not have wanted her to leave.

I say this without knowing if she drove to his house in her car or took a cab Anyone know?

Lol....we don't catch cabs here..only the tourists do!!

 

[Zinn]

Good point, I hadn't thought of that! For all we know, if that window was closed...we wouldn't be here talking about this case at all and Reeva would be alive. It's possible that window being open triggered his already paranoid mind.

For all we know, Reeva may have opened that window to call for help or assess a potential means of escape from Oscar, considering they were trapped in a locked bedroom (according to Oscar). Purely speculating.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[Estelle]

The lead detective Hilton Botha has been replaced by South Africa's "top detective" Lt Gen Moonoo, after it was confirmed Det Botha is facing allegations of attempted murder
Det Botha has been removed from the case and will play no part in the new team, South Africa's chief of police confirms
The hearing in Pretoria will continue into a fourth day, with prosecutor Gerrie Nel continuing to sum up his argument against granting Mr Pistorius bail
The defence team have repeatedly argued for the charge of premeditated murder against Mr Pistorius to be downgraded to a "schedule five" offence, meaning it would be more likely the athlete would be granted bail

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-21532950

 

[otyikondo]

Lol, I did post my dog theory last night but its too many pages to go back and look for it.

I went back and had a look.

Yes, possibly he might have "thought the worst", though my guess is you'd have to be a pretty eager burglar, preferably with a silenced firearm, to want to go up against those two (I've seen pics; here's one) prior to clambering up to a 2nd floor window. I'd not want to get close enough to poison them with a dodgy steak.

It's not obvious, but I'd hazard a guess you are living somewhere in SA, and to my mind this (naturally) colours your responses towards OP's actions and inactions.

Please note: this is NOT (Absolutely NOT) intended as a slight.

Far from it, it's actually massively, enormously useful to get a local mind-set and to see how his actions might be perceived (re that article from The Star, for instance).

For those fortunate not to have to live with the perpetual fear of home intrusions or the alarm going off (what's a burglar alarm???) it might seem that OP's behaviour is not just quixotic, but downright garden variety paranoid. If one lives in a gated community with electric fencing, guard dogs, CCTV cameras, and roaming security in vans carrying assault rifles, maybe what went down in the early hours of Feb 14th all makes a weird kind of sense.

Re the article, however, there ARE some comments below that debunk it somewhat and tend to suggest that you can find the überfearful in any community, however innocuous.

Perception of risk is a funny thing - and often something that has more to do with media reporting than actual likelihood of getting raped, mugged, killed, etc. Just ask most UK Daily Mail readers...

 

[gxm]

The fact that Reeva's bladder was empty at time of death is relevant as it could mean that Reeva was simply in the toilet to use it for its purpose when she was attacked.
It is possible that OP knew that Reeva was in bed when he got up to go to balcony. Him getting up could have wakened Reeva and she could have easily slipped into toilet without him knowing. I think this is more plausible than the whole rigmarole of him chasing her with a gun and battering down the toilet door with a bat. I admit I want him to be innocent, not because I am a fan of his (I had never heard of him before all this) but I just feel it would be easier for both families if this was the case.

BBM

I find that doubtful. She was an overnight guest in a strange house. The lights were out. She would have been shuffling and most likely bumping into things as she made her way across the room. I find it hard to believe she would have been so stealthy that the already wakened OS didn't notice her.

 

[Waddles]

I just wanted to say, in very basic terms that this is really so sad. I am so sorry for Reeva losing her life which by all accounts was a special and very loving one and she was very much loved in turn. I feel very sorry for OP. I wish for him this had never happened but I think he is completely 100% responsible regardless of what really happened -intruder or not -no matter how much fear was in him, fear that I can 100% understand, including the irrational behaviour that can follow; he knew what keeping a loaded gun entailed and shooting so many times at the door -whether against Reeva in a "premeditated" or in a spontaneous deliberate angry way or against a supposed intruder who he knew would be likely dead anyway- he had to know what that meant. It's all so very sad but on the face of it he has to be responsible for his actions, be imprisoned for many many years and give up his career-he is responsible, regardless of how you look at it.

 

[jjenny]

"I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps."

His GF had no where to go but the bathroom.

And why exactly couldn't he open a bedroom door? I can't imagine a lock closing the door from inside that can not be opened-wouldn't that be a huge fire hazard?

 

[otyikondo]

BBM

I find that doubtful. She was an overnight guest in a strange house. The lights were out. She would have been shuffling and most likely bumping into things as she made her way across the room. I find it hard to believe she would have been so stealthy that the already wakened OS didn't notice her.

How "strange" was the house? I mean, without going into graphic detail of the number of times they'd spent the night together there in pneumatic bliss, surely she'd been going steady with Pistorius for some months at least? Or not?

 

[otyikondo]

And why exactly couldn't he open a bedroom door? I can't imagine a lock closing the door from inside that can not be opened-wouldn't that be a huge fire hazard?

Aha... I think maybe you ought to have a look at that newspaper article Carol70 put up a page or two back. Will send shivers down your spine. And possibly add a new word to your vocabulary - "rape doors" or suchlike.

*shudder*

 

[jjenny]

He believed his girlfriend was in bed asleep, so any noise coming from the bathroom would have to be from someone who shouldn't be there. OP would not know whether the person in the small toilet was armed or not. So it could be a case of kill or be killed. SA is in the top 5 dangerous places to live on earth, so it would be likely that an intruder would be armed.

Why did he believed her to be in bed asleep? His own story is that he had to get a gun from under the bed. So how could he not see his girlfriend was not in bed at that time?

 

[gxm]

How "strange" was the house? I mean, without going into graphic detail of the number of times they'd spent the night together there in pneumatic bliss, surely she'd been going steady with Pistorius for some months at least? Or not?

I routinely walk to the bathroom in the dark and still bump into things on the way, and we've lived at our current house for 2-1/2 years. RS had been dating OP for only two or three months and it doesn't sound like she was staying there regularly. I just don't buy the quiet as a mouse until she gets to the toilet and then is suddenly making enough commotion that OP finally hears her (even though she would have been farther away at this point and the sounds would be more muted). OP can't have it both ways. If it's too dark for him to see whether RS is still in bed then it's also too dark for RS to make to the bathroom quickly and quietly. And if it's that dark and they are both awake why didn't anyone turn on a light? None of his story makes sense when you really start to think about it.

 

[otyikondo]

I routinely walk to the bathroom in the dark and still bump into things on the way, and we've lived at our current house for 2-1/2 years. RS had been dating OP for only two or three months and it doesn't sound like she was staying there regularly. I just don't buy the quiet as a mouse until she gets to the toilet and then is suddenly making enough commotion that OP finally hears her (even though she would have been farther away at this point and the sounds would be more muted). OP can't have it both ways. If it's too dark for him to see whether RS is still in bed then it's also too dark for RS to make to the bathroom quickly and quietly. And if it's that dark and they are both awake why didn't anyone turn on a light? None of his story makes sense when you really start to think about it.

Well argued. Thanks.
We've lived in our place for 25 years and I often work in my study late at night, so I'm a finely-tuned silence engine, even after a couple of stiff glasses of brandy, so as not to wake the missus and risk getting beaten within an inch of my life. I tend to assume similar skills from others, and perhaps overestimate...

 

[Zinn]

I routinely walk to the bathroom in the dark and still bump into things on the way, and we've lived at our current house for 2-1/2 years. RS had been dating OP for only two or three months and it doesn't sound like she was staying there regularly. I just don't buy the quiet as a mouse until she gets to the toilet and then is suddenly making enough commotion that OP finally hears her (even though she would have been farther away at this point and the sounds would be more muted). OP can't have it both ways. If it's too dark for him to see whether RS is still in bed then it's also too dark for RS to make to the bathroom quickly and quietly. And if it's that dark and they are both awake why didn't anyone turn on a light? None of his story makes sense when you really start to think about it.

And, according to reporters in the courtroom on day 3 of the bail hearing, Oscar's lawyer has also implied Reeva may have dressed herself before going to the bathroom, so that would have been in the dark as well.

JMO

 

[NocturnalLady]

The charges were reinstated as a means of discrediting Botha as the fix seems very clearly in.

But they were supposedly reinstated before the murder even happened. The police were only notified of it later.

 

[Patticake]

Lol....we don't catch cabs here..only the tourists do!!

It's pretty hard to find them here in LA too!

Anyhoo ... it sounds like she may have driven her car.


An aside: With the off-the-charts crime you have, it sounds like single women don't have homes or apartments by themselves.

 

[onthecounter]

Is it still possible that he shot at her before she entered the toilet? If not in the bedroom, then in the bathroom? Or has that theory been completely debunked?

 

[Estelle]

But they were supposedly reinstated before the murder even happened. The police were only notified of it later.

They were reinstated on February 4, 2013.

 

[Sonya610]

What kind of burglar locks themselves in the toilet? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Bingo! That is exactly what I keep thinking.