General Discussion Thread #2

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I believe there was a wound at the hip, arm, hand and head (hand and head made with one bullet).

God I am thick....yesterday I asked would the Defence let it be known they had "found" another bullet/casing in the toilet because I thought it would weaken their case. IIRC, there were 3 bullet holes in door but four wounds. One bullet was thought to have made both hand and head wound.

What if Reeva was attacked outside bathroom with one bullet.......forced/ carried/ran into bathroom closed the door, then three more bullets fired. Three bullets making four wounds seems unlikely now. One bullet fired outside the bathroom could be covered up by "finding" another bullet/casing in the toilet bowl AFTER the proscution and finished their investigation of the crime scene. Do I make sense??????
 
As far as I 'm aware Liverpoollou, it was confirmed at the bail hearing that there were four bullets fired through the door. Four bullet casings found outside the toilet door. Three of the four casings were found inside the bathroom and one in the passageway near the bathroom entrance. It was not a casing that was later discovered in the toilet bowl, it was spent bullet.
 
God I am thick....yesterday I asked would the Defence let it be known they had "found" another bullet/casing in the toilet because I thought it would weaken their case. IIRC, there were 3 bullet holes in door but four wounds. One bullet was thought to have made both hand and head wound.

What if Reeva was attacked outside bathroom with one bullet.......forced/ carried/ran into bathroom closed the door, then three more bullets fired. Three bullets making four wounds seems unlikely now. One bullet fired outside the bathroom could be covered up by "finding" another bullet/casing in the toilet bowl AFTER the proscution and finished their investigation of the crime scene. Do I make sense??????

A bullet could have been fired at her from the bathroom door entrance. It could have missed her and went through a closed toilet door and hit the wall before landing in the toilet bowl. She could have then ran into the small enclosed toilet for some cover and he came closer and shot her through the toilet door three times .

This would account for four bullet holes in toilet door, one casing in passageway at bathroom entrance, three casings inside bathroom, four spent bullets inside the toilet cubicle, including any still lodged in RS's body.
 
http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c4#/video/world/2013/03/06/ac-dnt-griffin-pistorius-dark-side.cnn

I don't think this one has been posted before but in this video from CNN they say that now that OP is out of jail his bail conditions have changed from what they had been announced to be. Now OP will not be required to check in with the police twice a week, instead the police will go to check on him only "occasionally".

I'm really astonished at the special treatment OP continues to get.


Actually the idea that it was a condition that OP report twice a week was a misunderstanding on the part of the press. During the bail hearing the prosecution suggested that twice a week reporting be a condition. But in Magistrate Nair's final bail documents he did not include this suggestion. Media who had heard the prosecution, but not seen the final documents, assumed OP was reporting twice a week and camped out at the Brooklyn police station waiting for his appearance (which never came). So no bail conditions have changed.

Photos of the original bail condition documents are here
pic.twitter.com/0XoEpsnIj9
pic.twitter.com/xoGJYFJoVL

but the same is on OP's site:

http://oscarpistorius.com/oscar-pistorius-complies-with-bail-conditions-25-02-2013/
 
I don't really think he had a motive per se. I think the killing was more about OP's own issues.

I think he had a temper & was controlling towards women.

I think he failed to win the 100 at the Paralympics - a race which he acted like was going to be his & is also the "glamour" race in track. I think that coming in second on that really weighed on him.

I think he was possibly in a period in his training where he was off steroids but compensating for that with the herbal supplement.

I think he didn't sleep well. I think he was not eating right & was instead relying on a diet of caffeine as well as consuming alcohol.

I think he felt some pressure on his romantic relationship due to the Valentine's Day timing - especially if this was truly the first time Reeva had stayed overnight.

I think he MAY have had issues with sexual performance (the herbal supplement is marketed as a treatment for "male weakness"). I think a failure in that department plus possibly Reeva getting a FB message from her handsome, able bodied Rugby (the game OP originally hoped to succeed in until an injury forced him to take up running instead) star ex set off a jealous fight that escalated out of control.

So I think this killing is all about OP and has virtually nothing to do with Reeva herself.

And before people go off on me about it - I know there is no evidence that OP used steroids. However it is my personal belief (based on everything I read) that athletes - especially in track - almost always use some form of steroids. New forms are constantly being invented to stay one step ahead of testing and banning. Just because it isn't illegal doesn't mean it isn't a form of steroid and it would have the same effect on a person. Especially if the athlete had a pattern of using the substance while training and then going off it for races so it wouldn't be detected and then going back on again after the races. That kind of yo-yoing is very common in athletes and can lead to a very precarious mental state.

Hi Nocturnal Lady, I am sorry I had not seen your post before today. Somehow I missed it. In my original post, I asked about what motives people thought led OP to murder Reeva - a girl who supposedly loved him and he loved her romantically at least.

I have bolded what I see as possible motives here. You have styated about eight which on their own, may not have been a strong enough motive but in combination could have been.

Some of those you mentioned are symptoms of depression. Depression is hidden anger. This depression could have escalated after the race you mentioned where he came second. I said that the depression could have escalated because he had had trouble sleeping earlier in his life when he told a journo that he got up and went to the shotting range when he could not sleep. I realise that Shane often reminds us that he thinks OP could have a caffeine dependency and does not eat well which is not good when one has insomnia. But not eating well or loss of apetite is also a sign of depression. As a high achiever, he would have hated himself for not winning that race and his self-hate or shame could have made his depression worse.

If he was on and off steroids and herbal supplements this might have also affected his mood. I assume his depression was untreated but if it was, he could have been taking antidepressants which combined with alcohol is not a good look. Untreated depression plus alcohol makes the depression worse.

All of these could have been factors in his state of (depressed) mind.

But why did he choose to murder Reeva that night and not commit suicide if he was so very depressed and full of hidden self-hatred that night?

For a start, narcissistic people rarely commit suicide as they blame others for their misfortunes or losses.

IMO Reeva could have been like a prize he wanted to win over like winning the gold medal at a "love" race. Having Reeva on his arm was important for his pseudo self-esteem which covered up his self-hatred and possible depression. Reeva was possibly like a trophy girlfriend - someone he could show off to the media, friends and family. He desperately needed her in his life to make him feel good about himself. However, they might have been slow about getting into the bedroom activities as it had all been just show and superficiality before and after nine weeks, this was to be the night. After all they had had the company of the British housemate living there for the last four weeks so they had a chaperone, so to speak - so not much private time if the usual thing was for Reeva to be met half way by Cecil Myers around 10pm. OP, if he was depressed as well as having possible sexual and drinking problems, might not have wanted to rush things. Maybe he had not been taking the herbal supplement or homeopathic treatment very long so had been waiting for it to build up in his system.

So if Reeva was hoping (as her tweets alluded to) this was going to be the big night of romance, OP may have disappolnted her if he got drunk. OP may have unwittingly revealed his self-hatred and depression to her for the first time including revealing some secrets he had never told anyone about before. Some of this may have been so shocking to Reeva seeing his other side that she said she was going to leave at 10.30pm as was her usual plan with Cecil Myers. OP might have felt threatened by her leaving as she might reveal these secrets, so he locked her in the bedroom (hid the key) and forced her to send a message to Cecil Myers on one of the phones or sent it himself. They could have continued talking with her trying to persuade him to let her go. He could have continued drinking (evidence of how many empty bottles were there would be interesting). She might have had more to drink too if she was nervous. He may have confiscated her phones so she could not call for help. OP may have demanded after midnight to see what messages Reeva had on her iPad (Facebook or email) to prove that she was not in contact with other men. He then could have got into a jealous rage and demanded that she delete them. Reeva tells him "They are just friends - nothing to be jealous about. You are too possessive of me. We have only known each other nine weeks!" Reeva all the time is trying to placate him as he is in a druken stupour by now.

By 2pm. OP becomes at least violent in words if not physically as well. Reeva is frozen with fear so starts shouting and screaming in case neighbours and security guards can hear her and come to her rescue. (Did the neighbours hear both female and male voices?) OP gets his gun and tells her to keep quiet or he will shoot her. OP lies down for a moment exhausted so Reeva grabs two phones and runs to the bathroom to call for help. He comes to and realises she is in the bathroom with the phones so he goes after her with his gun and tells her to put them down or he will shoot her. She rushes to the toilet and locks the door crouching down beside it.

And we know the rest.......with many possible variations both before and after.

So in summary, NocturnalLady, there must have been a multitude of factors which led up to OP's state of mind. They might not be called actual "motives" but what tipped him over the edge and made him turn on Reeva?

The Facebook message from Hougaard has always made sense to me if we are looking for just motive (jealousy) as a reason for him to pick up the gun.

But often people are killed because they know information (secrets) that they do not want exposed. That is my bet until we learn more.

What secrets could Reeva have known about OP that made him feel so threatened that night that he had to kill her? My guess is possible use of steroids in the past (not that night).

What do you think?
 
I tried to register Thanks on a couple of postings but keep getting the message that I AM NOT

Lou, That often happens to me too. Many of my "thanks" do not register.

I keep having to sign in again and lose posts too.
 
I wonder if she had her notes with her at Oscars. Maybe the "yoga" was Reeva rehearsing her speech. Could have made him angry that she wasn't dedicating the time to him.

I have been trying to send posts and registering thanks but I am having a bit of trouble cos I keep getting told I am not allowed access. It worked yesterday, so I don't know what I am doing wrong. I am going to keep practising so if you get an inappropriate post from me take no notice.

I think the forum is very busy with the Jodi Arias case lately.

Yes I think he would have expected her undivided attention and did not respect what she was doing re violence and women which could have brought up some issues.
 
God I am thick....yesterday I asked would the Defence let it be known they had "found" another bullet/casing in the toilet because I thought it would weaken their case. IIRC, there were 3 bullet holes in door but four wounds. One bullet was thought to have made both hand and head wound.

What if Reeva was attacked outside bathroom with one bullet.......forced/ carried/ran into bathroom closed the door, then three more bullets fired. Three bullets making four wounds seems unlikely now. One bullet fired outside the bathroom could be covered up by "finding" another bullet/casing in the toilet bowl AFTER the proscution and finished their investigation of the crime scene. Do I make sense??????

I think it does but it often seems too complicated for me as I have only seen one gun in my life and that was in Ho Chi Min City at a tourist attraction! I had no interest in firing it either but tourists could.
 
http://mg.co.za/article/2013-03-07-pistorius-assault-case-lawyers-in-talks-over-legal-fees
Pistorius assault case: Lawyers in talks over legal fees

On her twitter page, Cassidy Taylor-Memmory describes herself as "a believer in peace and love". This past February 14, Valentine's Day, she tweeted a poignant message: "Sending love & prayers to the Steenkamp family on this difficult day – may you rest in peace beautiful #Reeva ♡."

The tweet is all the more poignant because 21-year-old Taylor-Memmory has her own legal history with "Blade Runner" Oscar Pistorius, who has been accused of murdering his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp. Pistorius claims he shot the blonde model through the toilet door, believing a burglar had gained access to his home on the luxury Silver Woods Estate in Pretoria.

In the wake of Steenkamp's death, confidential settlement talks between the legal teams representing Pistorius and Taylor-Memmory have escalated on an urgent basis. The sticking point as both parties moved to resolve the dispute this week was the demand by Taylor-Memmory for Pistorius to pay her legal fees, expected to be less than a R1-million.

-snip-

Ironically, the officer on this case was Warrant Officer Hilton Botha, who was also the lead investigator into Steenkamp's death. Botha was removed from the murder case after it was found he was facing seven charges of attempted murder for shooting at a taxi he suspected was carrying a suspect.

The Mail & Guardian sent questions to the police, in an effort to ascertain who laid an assault charge in the Taylor-Memmory case and whether there were records to show Pistorius was held in a cell overnight three years ago.
The police responded by calling the M&G to say the police were all involved in the National Police Day around the country on Wednesday, and would have difficulty responding. No responses were received.
-snip-

.
 
TV Talk (TalkingTV1) on Twitter

https://twitter.com/TalkingTV1
... TV Talk (@TalkingTV1). Keeping you up to date with everything TV! ... Looking forward to seeing @piersmorgan talk with Reevas family tonight on @CNN ...
 
Hi Nocturnal Lady, I am sorry I had not seen your post before today. Somehow I missed it. In my original post, I asked about what motives people thought led OP to murder Reeva - a girl who supposedly loved him and he loved her romantically at least.

I have bolded what I see as possible motives here. You have styated about eight which on their own, may not have been a strong enough motive but in combination could have been.

Some of those you mentioned are symptoms of depression. Depression is hidden anger. This depression could have escalated after the race you mentioned where he came second. I said that the depression could have escalated because he had had trouble sleeping earlier in his life when he told a journo that he got up and went to the shotting range when he could not sleep. I realise that Shane often reminds us that he thinks OP could have a caffeine dependency and does not eat well which is not good when one has insomnia. But not eating well or loss of apetite is also a sign of depression. As a high achiever, he would have hated himself for not winning that race and his self-hate or shame could have made his depression worse.

If he was on and off steroids and herbal supplements this might have also affected his mood. I assume his depression was untreated but if it was, he could have been taking antidepressants which combined with alcohol is not a good look. Untreated depression plus alcohol makes the depression worse.

All of these could have been factors in his state of (depressed) mind.

But why did he choose to murder Reeva that night and not commit suicide if he was so very depressed and full of hidden self-hatred that night?

For a start, narcissistic people rarely commit suicide as they blame others for their misfortunes or losses.

IMO Reeva could have been like a prize he wanted to win over like winning the gold medal at a "love" race. Having Reeva on his arm was important for his pseudo self-esteem which covered up his self-hatred and possible depression. Reeva was possibly like a trophy girlfriend - someone he could show off to the media, friends and family. He desperately needed her in his life to make him feel good about himself. However, they might have been slow about getting into the bedroom activities as it had all been just show and superficiality before and after nine weeks, this was to be the night. After all they had had the company of the British housemate living there for the last four weeks so they had a chaperone, so to speak - so not much private time if the usual thing was for Reeva to be met half way by Cecil Myers around 10pm. OP, if he was depressed as well as having possible sexual and drinking problems, might not have wanted to rush things. Maybe he had not been taking the herbal supplement or homeopathic treatment very long so had been waiting for it to build up in his system.

So if Reeva was hoping (as her tweets alluded to) this was going to be the big night of romance, OP may have disappolnted her if he got drunk. OP may have unwittingly revealed his self-hatred and depression to her for the first time including revealing some secrets he had never told anyone about before. Some of this may have been so shocking to Reeva seeing his other side that she said she was going to leave at 10.30pm as was her usual plan with Cecil Myers. OP might have felt threatened by her leaving as she might reveal these secrets, so he locked her in the bedroom (hid the key) and forced her to send a message to Cecil Myers on one of the phones or sent it himself. They could have continued talking with her trying to persuade him to let her go. He could have continued drinking (evidence of how many empty bottles were there would be interesting). She might have had more to drink too if she was nervous. He may have confiscated her phones so she could not call for help. OP may have demanded after midnight to see what messages Reeva had on her iPad (Facebook or email) to prove that she was not in contact with other men. He then could have got into a jealous rage and demanded that she delete them. Reeva tells him "They are just friends - nothing to be jealous about. You are too possessive of me. We have only known each other nine weeks!" Reeva all the time is trying to placate him as he is in a druken stupour by now.

By 2pm. OP becomes at least violent in words if not physically as well. Reeva is frozen with fear so starts shouting and screaming in case neighbours and security guards can hear her and come to her rescue. (Did the neighbours hear both female and male voices?) OP gets his gun and tells her to keep quiet or he will shoot her. OP lies down for a moment exhausted so Reeva grabs two phones and runs to the bathroom to call for help. He comes to and realises she is in the bathroom with the phones so he goes after her with his gun and tells her to put them down or he will shoot her. She rushes to the toilet and locks the door crouching down beside it.

And we know the rest.......with many possible variations both before and after.

So in summary, NocturnalLady, there must have been a multitude of factors which led up to OP's state of mind. They might not be called actual "motives" but what tipped him over the edge and made him turn on Reeva?

The Facebook message from Hougaard has always made sense to me if we are looking for just motive (jealousy) as a reason for him to pick up the gun.

But often people are killed because they know information (secrets) that they do not want exposed. That is my bet until we learn more.

What secrets could Reeva have known about OP that made him feel so threatened that night that he had to kill her? My guess is possible use of steroids in the past (not that night).

What do you think?

Mostly agree, except I do not go along with steriod theory. Surely if she was threatening to spill the beans, he could just deny it. I think he was boiling up all day. I also think it is possible he had been stalking her on the DAY of the 13th. Remember the CCTV still of Reeva arriving at Oscars, then minutes or moments later he arrived in his own car. She had stayed with him the nights of the 12th and 13th. What were they doing the DAY OF THE 13TH. Reeva supposedly rang Oscar and asked to stay another night even though her effects were still at Oscars. Or did her ring her after following her around during the day, and asked her to stay over again or at least for a few hours.
Wouldn't surprise me if Oscar has even more phones he hasn't handed over.
 
Hello All! I am brand new to the Forum. This is my first post. I have been reading the posts from you guys for about two weeks, and I have to say that you people are so smart, and also so nice!

I was on another board (based in the UK) and I was pulling my hair out because they have diehard OP groupies there that try to restrain any discussion about this case by torturing people with the words "plausible" and "irrelevant" and frankly just making stuff up and calling it fact.

Anyway, I hope you will let me join the conversation and hang out with you.
 
Oh, this is intriguing!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/07/us-safrica-pistorius-idUSBRE9260UB20130307
Ousted Pistorius detective quits South African police

The South African detective ridiculed for his slipshod handling of the initial investigation into the killing of Olympic track star Oscar Pistorius' girlfriend has resigned from the force, police said on Thursday.

Warrant Officer Hilton Botha, a detective with 24 years experience, was the first officer on the scene after the Valentine's Day shooting of law graduate and model Reeva Steenkamp.

However, he was pulled off the case after it emerged he was being investigated for seven counts of attempted murder. He was also criticized for mixing up key facts about the investigation at Pistorius' bail hearing

.
 
and in other news.....
andrew harding ‏@BBCAndrewH
Outspoken, humiliated, suspended and now resigning: lead detective in #oscarpistorius murder case Hilton Botha reportedly quits SA police.
 
'South African Violence' Only Explains the Pistorius Case If He's Not Guilty
By Jina Moore

5Mar 1 2013, 11:06 AM ET20

Time's splashy cover story blames Reeva Steenkamp's killing on South Africa's culture. But what if it's the man, not the country, that's the problem?

"The South African Police don't consider domestic violence a discrete crime. If you're beaten by your boyfriend in your kitchen, it gets written up as assault, no different than if you were punched by a stranger at a bar. But in a recent study in Gauteng -- South Africa's wealthiest, most densely populated and most cosmopolitan province -- more than 50 percent of women reported experiencing some form of domestic abuse - and more than 75 percent of men admitted to abusing women. That makes it difficult to say what the rates of domestic violence might be in South Africa, but it's impossible to deny, or even to downplay, domestic violence there any longer. "

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...th-africa-its-about-domestic-violence/273637/

This is a long read so I suggest you read it. It is a good article. IMO domestic violence was involved and we might to get to know more when this case goes to trial.
 
Not everyone surprised at Oscar Pistorius' fall from grace

Joffe is one of the few South African journalists who has been critical of Pistorius. He said the PR machine behind the man they call Blade Runner has all but made him untouchable.

"So many incidents have happened and they've been well documented over the last five or six years with Oscar Pistorius," said Joffe, who worked at CNN in the 1990s. "These kinds of cases have disappeared."

The South African media has long adored Pistorius, some would say even protected him, by minimizing his problems. Yet, some of his friends and colleagues have cast doubt on the idyllic image of Pistorius portrayed by the press.

"It's like we were waiting for something like this to happen," said Marc Batchelor, a South African soccer player who socialized with Pistorius in South Africa's glamor and sports circles.

Batchelor described Pistorius as someone who "had a trip switch," quick to get angry and fight. Pistorius caused "a lot of problems," he said.

Batchelor said Pistorius once wanted to fight him because the track star thought his girlfriend was cheating on him. Pistorius, who Batchelor described as drunk, started yelling and swearing over the phone.

"He said he's not scared. If I want to come down there, he knows where I am, and blah blah blah. But I left it," Batchelor told CNN.

One thing many people don't know, Batchelor said, is that Pistorius was armed nearly everywhere he went. He even applied to become a licensed gun collector so he could buy more guns than the four that South Africans are allowed, according to Carvel Webb, chairman of an umbrella organization for South Africa's private gun collectors, including Pistorius.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/06/world/africa/pistorius-image/index.html
 
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