General Discussion Thread No. 18

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Perhaps she should consider staying at home with her remaining children as being satisfying rather than travelling all over the world campaigning for other peoples children! If I had lost one through my absence I think I would make damned sure nothing ill befell the others by the same means regardless of my personal ambitions for 5 minutes of fame!

Can someone please tell me how to multiquote rather than answering posts individually, TIA!

Maybe alt/shift/control to highlight multi posts? You are advancing beyond the frontiers of my skill level!

I know I would feel the same way you do.

But I think Kate and Gerry have long been in denial about what they really wanted, what they thought they wanted, what they were expected to do. They could easily have brought along their nanny on vacation, but that wouldn't have been a family vacation. None of the other Tapas 9 brought along their caregivers.

Just a few decades ago, families of their position would not have gone on vacation without a nanny or governess. More wealthy families would have brought along several servants, but the "middle class" wealthy would have brought along either extended family relatives or Nanny to watch the children while the adults had their expected and routine social time with other adults.

The McCanns did all and nothing to be all and everything. They had images and expectations of themselves as outstanding parents and professional career people, but obviously, in reality, they were not. The pity is they could not be more honest or realize that they needed good ol' Nanny along.

I don't think you will ever hear Kate admitting that being a child welfare "spokesperson" is more about her than it is about Madeleine, but obviously, it is.

Maybe she is telling herself that she will have more flexible hours and time committments as a spokesperson. Of course, that isn't true--the first time she has to choose between the twins' Christmas pageant performance and an interview with Sky News, it will be very hard indeed for her. But she will find a way to excuse that as "what we are doing for Madeleine."
 
Several times I have said on this forum that bestiality & child 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 were found on Robert Mura's p.c. This has been reported in many English newspapers. However, I have just read one report that this assertion is untrue. So, we have just one more pc. of evidence that has been put forth and also denied. Speaking of contradictions, Gerry McCann supposedly saw all three of his children sound asleep. One newspaper seems to have him confused w. Matthew Oldfield and what he saw. As far as I know, McCann only noticed that a door he'd left closed was open at 9:05. I welcome comments that might shed light on these items.
 
Sorry, Mr. Murat. A typo. I have not seen any refutation of the fact you were dead wrong about calling Sergei Malinka. The phone call is in the records, at 11:40 pm on the night of 3 May. Unless that was misreported by every media source. You had denied you phoned him.
 
Several times I have said on this forum that bestiality & child 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 were found on Robert Mura's p.c. This has been reported in many English newspapers. However, I have just read one report that this assertion is untrue. So, we have just one more pc. of evidence that has been put forth and also denied. Speaking of contradictions, Gerry McCann supposedly saw all three of his children sound asleep. One newspaper seems to have him confused w. Matthew Oldfield and what he saw. As far as I know, McCann only noticed that a door he'd left closed was open at 9:05. I welcome comments that might shed light on these items.

Did M. Oldfield not just listen at the door & therefore did not see anything?
 
Oldfield noticed that the children's bedroom was much lighter than he expected or than it ought to have been. He said he saw the sleeping twins but, in some reports, could not see Madeleine because of the placement of her bed and in at least one report, he did not see Madeleine (no explanation).
 
I remember very distinctly in the early reports, Oldfield said he saw the twins sleeping but could not verify having seen Madeleine (something that obviously stuck out clearly in my mind at the time.) However, there were reports later that all Oldfield had actually done was listen at the door.

Gerry saw the door slightly ajar but did not actually see the children sleeping.

That is what the news articles reported, of course, that may not be actually the whole truth.
 
This is about an appeal the McCanns have made on Spanish TV to be broadcast over Spain, Portugal, and North Africa:

Kate in tears during new Madeleine appeal

http://www.eecho.ie/news/bstory.asp?j=235475710&p=z354764y6&n=235476470

“I feel sad and I feel lonely and our life is not as happy without Madeleine,” she said in tears, adding: “I feel anxious she is not with us.”

Asked about the last time she saw Madeleine, she said: “She was very happy and very loving and I know Madeleine was very happy with her life. She is special.”

The McCanns reportedly chose Antena 3 ahead of more well known broadcasters such as Oprah Winfrey and Barbara Walters for the interview because they believe their daughter is most likely to be in Spain, Portugal or north Africa.

Texana said:
Gerry saw the door slightly ajar but did not actually see the children sleeping.
Well if that is true, then Gerry's statement in this new article is rather a startling contradiction:

Mr McCann described the last time he saw her – at 9.05pm as he checked on his daughter as she lay sleeping – before returning to the tapas bar to carry on with his evening meal.

“I was the last to see her. I saw her and thought how beautiful she was and thought how lucky I was to be a father of three children,” he said.

:waitasec: They are spinning it there as if Gerry actually "saw" her the last time he checked on her, or does it mean the last time he actually checked to see if she was there? Hard to say just what he means.
 
“I was the last to see her. I saw her and thought how beautiful she was and thought how lucky I was to be a father of three children,” he said.


AW! That's so sweet. I may need an extra dose of insulin today.
 
I found something very interesting from a criminal profiler about the McCanns that I want to put here. Her name is Pat Brown, she lives in the US and she has this to say about Kate.

http://incoldblogger.blogspot.com/2007/10/open-letter-to-kate-mccann.html

Kate,

It isn’t your breast size or weight that is causing your problems. It is you and your narcissist evaluation of the situation and your PR team’s equally stupid assessment of the situation that is making you look so bad in the public eye.

I am a criminal profiler with years of experience dealing with parents of murder victims and missing relatives. Your behavior and the behavior of your husband fall far outside of the norm for grieving parents. Now, this may be because you are just terribly narcisstic folks who had nothing to do with your child going missing (outside of neglecting your children and putting your needs to party before their needs for comfort and safety, a narcissistic behavior if I have ever seen one). You and Gerry may simply be so narcissistic you have no understanding of how other people view your behaviors and your PR team may share your narcissism so that no one on your team has a clue to normal human behavior.

It goes on, but I thought this assessment from a professional about the McCanns' "grieving" has merit.
 
I'll go back and dig it up again if I can find the first articles. You know pretty quickly after the initial interviews and reports the McCanns stopped giving details, even to answer questions about conflicting previous statements.

However, I'm pretty sure that Gerry made it clear he did not go into the other room in his initial account.

Remember, the door being ajar is the reason (along with the timing issues) that Gerry said he knew (later) that the abductor was hiding in the other room.

If he had gone into the room and actually seen Madeleine sleeping, he would very likely seen the abductor, etc.
 
I found something very interesting from a criminal profiler about the McCanns that I want to put here. Her name is Pat Brown, she lives in the US and she has this to say about Kate.

http://incoldblogger.blogspot.com/2007/10/open-letter-to-kate-mccann.html



It goes on, but I thought this assessment from a professional about the McCanns' "grieving" has merit.

Wow, this assesment from criminal profiler Pat Brown is really thought provoking. I would say not only is this Pat Brown a well known criminal profiler but he is a talented writer. Everyone should read this.

mjak
 
Well, he finally said something that I think is completely hokie and sounds fake:
“I was the last to see her. I saw her and thought how beautiful she was and thought how lucky I was to be a father of three children,” he said.
 
I'll go back and dig it up again if I can find the first articles. You know pretty quickly after the initial interviews and reports the McCanns stopped giving details, even to answer questions about conflicting previous statements.

However, I'm pretty sure that Gerry made it clear he did not go into the other room in his initial account.

Remember, the door being ajar is the reason (along with the timing issues) that Gerry said he knew (later) that the abductor was hiding in the other room.

If he had gone into the room and actually seen Madeleine sleeping, he would very likely seen the abductor, etc.

Texana, here's the quote from SOL:
(I put the whole story in, just because it's still the most complete account we have of the evening).

in Sol on August 11:


Under the magnifying glass

SOL reveals what the McCanns and their friends say they did on the night that Maddie disappeared. Who would have died before dinner.

by: Felicia Cabrita and Margarida Davim
translated by: summer (from Proboards79)

The tests that were made this week on the car that was used by the McCann couple, indicates that the police admits that Maddie’s body may have been moved from the place where it was initially hidden, over the last two months.

As Sol could conclude, the investigators look for clues of the cadaver in the Renault Scenic, which was rented by Maddie’s parents after the child’s disappearance. As the abduction possibility is set aside, authorities bet on the reconstitution of the route that was taken to hide the body. During this week, PJ and elements of the english police – accompanied by the c-ockers that SOL surprised on the beach and in a valley that is close to the resort, last week – performed several diligences inside and outside several houses. The authorities seem to have concluded that Maddie’s body is buried in the vicinity of the apartment that was occupied by the McCanns, or was thrown into the sea.

The english dogs marked the death inside the apartment. And portuguese dogs did not find any trace on the outside. This fact is devalued by Pinto da Costa, a forensic doctor, who says a perfume on the body is enough to lose the dogs. A source of GNR that was heard by SOL says “the dogs only detected a movement of the child from the bedroom to another location inside the apartment”.

At the same time, it is still unknown at what time the alleged crime would have taken place. A specialist that was contacted by SOL guarantees: “In order for the dogs to mark the body, it would have had to remain in the area where it died for at least two hours”. If so, and considering that Maddie’s parents say they left for dinner at 8.30 p.m., the girl would have died shortly before that – given the fact the alarm to her disappearance was given at 10 p.m.

Blank hours

It is in these four hours – between the time the McCann couple picked up their children at the creche and the time Kate noticed her daughter was missing – that lies th solution to this mystery. This is also where the inconsistencies are found, between the versions that are reported by the couple and their friends.

The four friends couples, most of them doctors, always said they took turns among them to watch their children (either by listening through windows or by entering each other’s apartments) every half hour.

On that night, if the mismatching versions of the group are to be believed, there were up to three persons doing the same job. It is in this context that witness Jane Tanner appears, who is married to Russell O’Brien. He only appeared in the Tapas restaurant almost at the end of the dinner, saying his daughter, who is the same age as Maddie, was feeling ill. Jane, on the other hand, would have left the restaurant to check on her daughter and verify the other children at approximately 9.20 p.m. And she walked a narrow, scarcely lit road.

On her way, she passes Maddie’s father, who is talking to a friend, Jeremy Wilkins – a tv producer whom he met at the resort’s tennis court. When Jane passed them, the two men were close to a small iron gate that leads to the back entrance of the apartment: “It’s impossible. I didn’t see her”, Jeremy said.

That gate, which accesses a small patio, and according to Maddie’s father, was used by him and Matthew Oldfield to check on the children. In that moment, the girl’s father noticed that the door to the children’s room was more open and that there was more light than usual. Yet, he thought that Maddie, disturbed by her siblings’ crying, would have gone into her parents’ room, leaving the door open. But he did not check whether his daughter was there.
With these elements, which were corroborated by Matthew, Maddie’s father left the possibility that at that time the abductor was already inside the room, in the air.

Contributing to the kidnapping idea, there was also Jane Tanner’s version, who says she saw a man carrying a child, shortly after she crossed ways with Maddie’s father and Jeremy. But the tv producer – who was spending his holidays in a neighbouring apartment block – also dismisses that possibility: “I did not see any man carrying a child”.

Jane’s testimony was one of the pieces of information that would later be used to incriminate Murat, given the fact that the arguido’s house is on the street where the english woman says the man was walking to.

Jane walked approximately 5 metres from the individual who was carrying the child. Although there was little light, she describes him with detail. The man, looking caucasian, was wearing beige trousers, black shoes and was covered in a thick jacket. According to her words, “he didn’t even look like a tourist”.

In spite of the proximity to the person who would later originate the first drawing of the supposed kidnapper of Maddie, Jane, who socialized with the girl on a daily basis, did not recognize her. According to her statement, the child was wearing pink pyjamas, seemed to be asleep and was barefoot. This was the detail that she found the strangest.

That night, after Kate discovered the disappearance of her daughter (and after Jane supposedly confirmed with another friend that Maddie was wearing a pyjamas of the same colour), Jane Tanner made no comment. “I did not want to worry Kate even further”, she later guaranteed.

A witness that was contacted by SOL at that time seems to indicate that Jane, although she never crossed ways with the tv producer, may have described the right person, so if the suspect crossed ways with someone on his way, the versions would match.

The last diligences that PJ has performed do however put aside the doubts that were on Robert Murat, given the fact that the searches did not find anything that incriminates him.

----------------

The ‘movie’ of the night

After collecting all the elements, and crossing information from various sources, SOL’s investigation makes a reconstitution of the night that Maddie disappeared.

6 p.m. The McCanns pick their children up at the Ocean Club’s creche.
7.30 Madeleine and the twins go to bed.
8.30 Gerry and Kate arrive at the Tapas restaurant.
8.45 Russell, Matthew and Rachel Oldfield go to the restaurant.
8.55 David and Fiona Payne also arrive at the Tapas. According to David, all the elements of the group were already there. But Rachel assures that Matthew arrived two or three minutes after the Paynes.
9.00 Matthew went to check on the children.
9.05 Gerry left the Tapas to check on his children. When he is returning to the dinner, he meets Jeremy Wilkins – an english man he met during the holidays – and chats with him for ten minutes. Neither Gerry nor Jeremy notice Jane or the suspicious man that she says she saw, although they were all on the same narrow street at the same time.
9.10 Jane went to check on her children and notices a man walking hastily, carrying a child. She memorizes the suspect, but fails to recognize Maddie.
9.25 Gerry returns to Tapas. Russell told PJ that at this time Matt and he went to check the children.
9.30 Matthew goes into Madeleine’s apartment. Russell O’Brien leaves the restaurant at the same time. In the first statements, Matt does not refer anything strange in Madeleine’s room and Russell fails to explain that he stayed in his apartment because his younger daughter was feeling sick. Later, Matt said that he noticed more light in the McCanns’ apartment and Russell revealed his daughter was vomiting.
9.35 Matthew Oldfield returned to Tapas.
9.45 Jane Tanner says at this time – not at 9.30 – Matthew and Russell left the restaurant.
9.55 Russell returns to the restaurant.
10.00 Jane goes to the apartment and notices her daughter has disappeared. She goes back to Tapas and raises the alarm. Everybody leaves the restaurant, except Dianne Webster.
10.05 Dianne Webster goes into Maddie’s room. The twins are sleeping.
22.15 Dianne returns to Tapas, to pick up her purse and her camera.

---------------

The McCanns’ friends that the police is watching

Rachel and Matthew Oldfield

Rachell Manpilly is 36 and she is married to Matthew Oldfield. The couple has a daughter, who was only 18 months old when Madeleine McCann disappeared. But now even so the Oldfields asked for the Ocean Club’s babysitting service. Matthew met Gerry McCann when both doctors worked together at a hospital in Leicester. Matt has a pending accusation for medical negligence in that hospital, after a late diagnosis resulted in the death of a patient. This was not the first time the Oldfields spent their holidays with this group. The last trip had been to Greece – where they also stayed in a resort of the Ocean Club’s group – but that time Gerry and Kate did not accompany them.

Dianne Webster

63 year old Dianne Webster is the oldest element of the group. This credit controller is the mother of Fiona Payne and the grandmother of two of the children from the group that was spending their holidays in the Ocean Club.
To the portuguese police, Dianne told she could not precise which elements abandoned the Tapas restaurant during dinner, on the night that Madeleine disappeared. Fiona’s mother is also the only witness that said each couple was responsible for their own children, and did not enter their friends’ apartments.
After Kate entered the restaurant – visibly upset and yelling “they’ve taken our Madeleine” – Dianne was the only one who stayed seated at the Tapas’ table. Which she only left five minutes later.

David and Fiona Payne

It was David Payne who organised the group’s holidays at Praia da Luz. The reservation was made over the internet, after a good experience with the Ocean Club’s group, in Greece. This was the second time that David came to Portugal. The first time was eleven years ago, before he got married.
David and Fiona have been together for seven years and are both doctors, like the McCanns’ friends. The couple has two children and they were the only ones in the group who used the babyphone system to keep watch over the children during dinners – which always took place without the small ones.
Fiona was back in the Algarve on July 11, along with Rachel and Russell, in order to give their third deposition to PJ.

Russell O’Brien and Jane Tanner

Russell O’Brien is a doctor and lives in Exeter – the same english city where the sister of Robert Murat lives.
After studying at the same university as David Payne, O’Brien met Jane, with whom he has two children. The friendship between Russell and David is so strong that he chose him as his wedding godfather when he made his relationship with Fiona official, in Italy.
Coincidentally, Jane and Kate became pregnant at the same time, as the O’Brien couple’s oldest daughter is exactly the same age as Maddie.
Jane Tanner is one of the key witnesses in the ‘Madeleine case’, given the fact she says she saw a suspicious man, walking with a child in his arms, on the night of the disappearance. Jane describes the individual with extreme precision, although she was not capable to recognize the child he was carrying. The man that Jane saw has dark, thick hair and is 1.70 m tall.
__________________
 
Wow, this assesment from criminal profiler Pat Brown is really thought provoking. I would say not only is this Pat Brown a well known criminal profiler but he is a talented writer. Everyone should read this.

mjak

EXCELLENT article. Pat Brown speaks what has been on my mind for the past few months. I hope the McCanns read it and COMPREHEND the significance of their strange behavior. Not likely, though.
 
I've seen this SOL article. Even from its timeline, it is clear that it was O'Brien & Oldfield that checked on children at the same time, although the implication earlier in the piece is that Matthew Oldfield knew what Gerry saw and did as though they went together. What I have always understood is that Gerry McCann saw all three children sleeping, Madeleine with her favorite comfort blanket. The door being open that he remembered having closed was the only oddity he noticed. He figured later that he and the intruder-kidnapper possibly hid behind the door while he was in the same space with him. I don't think there was any perception that the room was lighter. That was an impression Matthew Oldfield related in his second statement. He did look into the room, Oldfield did, but from a distance and could only see the twins. O'Brien claims he did not do more than listen at the door, although initially he said he had checked on the children and all was well. This is a concensus of all the newspaper reports. It may not be correct but there is an agreement in the accounts. Sol stands apart. Reading it in the past, I have thought there was translation trouble in regard to Oldfield's account.
 
Thanks, Morag.

I have exactly the opposite memory, Tuba, that Gerry never said he actually saw the children. This is one of the points we debated here previously, when was the last time anyone besides Kate actually saw Madeleine.

There was never any clear description of just how much the door was open, the articles said "ajar."

The conflicting stories could be translation, or just memory error/different witnesses, etc, but there is not one consistent account of the main points made public yet.
 
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